Non-LGBT posters coming into this forum and insulting us

JupiterKid

Now, I have no time for the concept of “safe spaces” or echo chambers where all the posters must follow a certain mantra or mindset or else get infracted. In fact, I firmly believe in healthy debate and argument. That is what boards should be all about.

But it seems to me that lately on this forum, a number of non-LGBT posters (mostly males I suspect) have been coming onto threads on this forum and have been making either thinly veiled or else blatant homophobic, or more commonly, transphobic remarks. They often disguise these bigoted opinions as “reasoned” remarks. Most of you on here have a good idea of who these posters are. This is sad because we have many, many, non LGBT posters who do contribute here on this forum in a very positive/supportive manner.

These spats between these posters and the regular ones here seem to be getting a lot of threads closed down and/or prematurely stopped with infractions handed out. And that is pretty sad IMO.

Any one else share my thoughts on the matter?

Ten of Swords

This activity has always existed but it peaks and troughs over time. I think there's definitely a peak going on right now and that is exaggerated because I think traffic in this forum is generally down so it's making the problem appear worse. The mods are usually pretty on top of it though and if a new poster seems open to discussion then handing out an immediate ban would be the wrong way to handle it, but when it becomes obvious they are just causing trouble they're shipped off pretty quickly.

The other thing I have noticed though, twice in the last number of weeks, is that when a thread gets enough views/replies to be listed on the trending page we get a lot of AH regulars in to have a look and sadly many of them bring the AH mentality with them (sarcasm, piss taking and veiled barbs) which causes the thread to collapse. This is not a dig at AH but just highlighting that while AH is reputedly a laid back forum the posting style of many posters in it is quite aggressive.

It's still a pity though. At best it's pretty annoying, at worst these threads could be genuinely upsetting to posters if it's a topic that is sensitive or very personal to them.

eviltwin

Unfortunately threads on LGBT issues are going to attract a certain type of poster. It's a moderator issue. I wouldn't last a minute if I went all animal rights on the hunting forum and rightly so. I don't know why its tolerated here. This isn't After Hours and while I get what Jupiterkid says about safe spaces there should be one corner of Boards where LGBT posters can be open without fear of ridicule.

Manion

Ironically the passing of the gay marriage referendum have lead in my opinion to an increase in this, not just in this forum but in general. The logic appears to be because gay marriage passed homophobia is a thing of the past and ergo and comment they make cannot be homophobic.

Additionally I think politics has become much more polarised and that is seeping into irish discourse.

branie2

you have every right to be what you are

I'm non-LGBT by the way, but I thought I'd say something poistive.

lottpaul

I'd be inclined to agree with almost everything posted above - there was a great euphoria after the marriage referendum and an inclination to imagine that everything in the garden would be rosy from then on. A number of straight friends and relations more or less said as much to me at the time. But, sadly it isn't so.
Regarding posters here I have no problem either with the ones who want to debate something or other or have genuine questions to ask. There are some who glory in being controversial and confrontational and some who don't like LGBT people. (I do have a problem with the last group) But there are some who seem to be so .... angry, all of the time.
My concern is that their presence deters the many, many who come here to browse from joining in a discussion. If you're in a vulnerable place you don't need aggression or rejection, or even the fear of aggression or rejection.
There are far greater numbers of positive posters, of all shades, always willing to jump in and offer advice, support or an opinion, but they can be overshadowed by the louder few.
Don't have any solutions to offer -- I don't think there are any really. The Mods are vigilant and deal with things promptly when the charter is breached. Perhaps more of us (myself included) need to comment more or start threads that might lead to a bit of constructive chat. And the others will eventually get bored and go away

Speedwell

I'm not LGBT either, but I was the moderator of an atheist chatroom for several years. We had religious people who were members and who were well liked by everyone. But every day we had people who came in pretending to be all sweet at first, but who soon showed their real agenda, whether it was just picking on us, attempting to convert us, looking for an argument, you name it. I allowed a certain amount of that to go on for fairness (after all, a few ignorant questions can be answered kindly if the person really just needs answers). But if the person turned angry, insulting, hostile, bitter, or condescending, I always stepped in with a firm, "You are clearly in the wrong place and you need help down off your high horse", and kicked them out... temporarily the first few times, and, with the unanimous consent of the other three or four moderators, permanently after that.

JupiterKid

Thanks for the replies guys. Plenty of food for thought. It does seem that quite a few "difficult" posters cross over into other forums and create trouble. I myself look up a number of forums and contribute but I generally respect the etiquette/culture of the particular forum.

Other forums I would just avoid because I would end up disagreeing with most of the members so they're generally best to steer clear of. But one of the appeals of boards is the huge range of different forums representing different interests - we can't all agree on everything and that's just life in all its diversity.

But there are definitely some posters out there who are trolls/anger filled/dogmatic and have an unpleasant agenda. You can see that quite a bit and it isn't hard to find. Some are just blatantly bitter and antagonistic - others couch it a rather prolonged roundabout way.

And if anything, in my opinion the same-sex marriage referendum aftermath has brought even more homophobes out of the woodwork.

JupiterKid

JupiterKid wrote: »

But it seems to me that lately on this forum, a number of non-LGBT posters (mostly males I suspect) have been coming onto threads on this forum and have been making either thinly veiled or else blatant homophobic, or more commonly, transphobic remarks. They often disguise these bigoted opinions as “reasoned” remarks. Most of you on here have a good idea of who these posters are.

This area of the forum is a relatively quiet one. Only a few posts a day really. Sometimes none. So the mods have a good chance to catch the people you describe quite quickly - especially if we the user base correctly use the "report" function to help them in a timely manner. But I am curious which posts and posters you mean given it is such a quiet forum. Perhaps you might PM me some examples if you are trying not to name names? I am just genuinely curious - rather than interested in a witch hunt - who or what you are referring to.

But I think your suggestion is a wonderful one. The rest of us need to post more often and - when things get heated - to do so calmly and smoothly to represent not just ourselves but our whole group well. 1 bad poster in 10 has a lot more noise than 1 bad poster in 100. They can post the same level of bile - to less effect - depending on the back ground noise they post it against.

But though I agree with what you wrote in the paragraph I quote above - I would add to it. One thing we always have to deal with in forums - and like the user above I myself was a moderator on some religious/atheist forums so I see this often - is people who are actively looking to be offended.

Some people can seem normal enough until they finally catch you putting some linguistic foot wrong - or making a simple error. Then suddenly they are fire and brimstone screaming at you that you are somehow the worst kind of bigot.

Often such people are trolls. No denying that. But often such people have just had a bad time of it due to their being homosexual or transgender or whatever. And so they are looking for a bag they can punch. Their heart is in the right place - even if their acting on it comes out messed up.

There are horrible things - and offensive things - said to people in our community. And as the M in an MFF relationship I feel part of this community though not LGBT myself.

But I think that small but loud minority who take offence and scream about every little perceived slight - poison the well for when we have an actual real grievance. And we have to stand up to those elements in our own community and get them to tone down a bit lest we simply end up with the stereotype of being whingers who moan about anything. Then people start rolling out the modern buzz words like "triggered" and "snowflakes" to dismiss us. A genuine grievance becomes "Just the snowflakes getting triggered again".

There was an example only in the last weeks on this forum so I am wondering if this had any influence on your starting the thread. There is a user of boards who is very much involved in campaigning for things like the Marriage Referendum. Involved both here in Ireland and the recent successes in the country where he now lives where gay marriage has had positive results at polls.

A good story there is we helped finance some buses to bring back Irish Voters from the UK. We did not only bring back "yes" voters. The buses were open to all. But before boarding the bus we hosted a debate. The bus tickets - which was very cheap as they were subsidised by us organisers - included entry to that debate.

Said user flew all the way from his country of residence - not Ireland - to the UK and was the "yes" representative for the debate. He was invited as he has been a calm and articulate poster and speaker on the issue in the past. Flew over mostly at his own expense too.

So to see said user being called the worst kind of bigot in recent weeks on here by a rather shrill interlocutor - solely because of a simple mistyping of a word - basic human error in other words - was one part tragic and one part sheer comedy. In fact I call him "The Bigot" now when talking to him - just for the wry laugh and it is now our in-joke. Only yesterday I was asking him "DId you see the game - or were you off being biggotted again somewhere?".

But this kind of thing is not likely to do us any favours. When we are screaming "bigot" at the most genuine of people who are actively fighting alongside us on the front lines of struggles for rights and equality - then imagine how the greater world must view that. I can not imagine it is viewed well and - for more emotive speakers than the user who simply took it on the chin as an anomaly - how many others people might take it to heart and be pushed away in a climate where we should be fostering friendships - rather than dissolving them?

Ash885

Well said above poster.

There's a 'hive mind' with trolls - usually they only act as a group when it becomes a heated issue/add drama. If there's one or two, whether minor or huge in offence, starving them of oxygen is usually more effective than anything lest you deal with a creche of idiots.

I think though the recent Porter, Spacey stories have really encouraged more people to post some pretty ignorant beliefs. It's the same with the Marriage Ref. Whenever LGBT issues become high profile, you really see the good, bad and downright ugly. (Not to say Porter/Spacey is an LGBT issue, but the eegits made it by clinging to their sexuality).

Just remember the majority of these comments are done by faceless, lonely and anonymous trolls. If we really think about it, they're really more to be pitied than upset by.

Lastly I'd agree with the quietness of the forum. When I first logged on there was good banter, variety of topics and bit of community about it. Now it just strikes me as an agony aunt forum specific to LGBT people...

Annasopra

Ash885 wrote: »

Lastly I'd agree with the quietness of the forum. When I first logged on there was good banter, variety of topics and bit of community about it. Now it just strikes me as an agony aunt forum specific to LGBT people...

Fair point. I think this is the case across the site though; it has gone generally quiet enough in the smaller fora.

Any suggestions for improving the forum generally?

Annasopra

Regarding the general topic - yes there have been a few discussions like that but when after users have reported posts they have been moderated. I don't think it's a huge problem - but what exactly are you suggesting OP; much tougher moderation?

robyntmorton

I do think that the moderation team are doing a good job in shutting down things - when they are reported. The reporting part is down to the users. If we spot something, we need to flag it so it can be dealt with.

As for the other side of it... The community is what the users make of it. If we're not making anything of the community, it goes away. That ends up being to the detriment of all of us, yet essentially we are all guilty of it.

This forum doesn't need to be all doom and gloom and seriousness. It can have a bit of a light hearted side too. Even posting something in the off topic thread can get the community talking to each other.

Ten of Swords

L.Jenkins tried to revive the off topic thread a while back, there were few takers and it's dropped off the front page again. Some of us post in it the odd time but from what I've seen from some of the older posts on that thread it would get many dozens of posts daily at it's peak, this place was great craic and had good camaraderie a few years ago. Sadly most of the regular posters from that era have moved on and the place does seem far more serious than it needs to be.

The meetups were gradually wound down after a series of failures, Ash885 put in a stellar effort trying to organize the last few and it must have been very disheartening that they didn't pan out.

I saw this thread and so I came in for a look. Could the LGBT forum not have a system like the soccer forum where people have to request access before posting? This would cut down on trolls on this section of boards, just an idea. Hi and Bye again

Ten of Swords

No, that would make it less accessible. As it stands the LGBT forum is one of the few on Boards where anonymous posting is permitted in an effort to make it more accessible while protecting privacy for those who have concerns.

Q for the mods, is there much abuse of the anon posts? I know they are pre-moderated so users don't see an anon post until a mod has reviewed it. Are there many troll anon posts that don't make it through or are these generally used for their intended purpose?

robyntmorton

Yeah, I don't think exclusivity will help. That can only lead to echo chamber complaints in other forums about "the gays"

Accessibility is good for us, but with it comes undesirables. All we can do is keep reporting crap as we see it, and let the mod team do their thing.

Sleeper12

I'm a straight married man. I am & always have been a friend of the gay community. I try to be a friend of all communities.

I say this with all respect but at times the term homophobia or homophobic are over used on this forum. This can cause visitors to the forum to react in a negative way. This is my observation. I don't mean everyone overuses these terms but some do.

On the other side it's going to take another generation or maybe two before a lot of straight men become truly modern men. A gang of men down the pub might joke about keeping your back to the wall or something childish like that but most wouldn't knowingly say it in front of a gay person. And believe it or not they wouldn't mean any offence by it. That isn't to say that you can't feel offended by it.

I'm 50 in a few weeks. In the 60s most men didn't use shampoo, they used soap and water instead. Aftershave was seen as perfume & a man's man wouldn't be caught dead using it. They only drank Guinness because it was a man's drink. A larger drinker was less of a man. By the 80s male collage students were wearing eye liner, mousse, gel etc.

What I'm trying to say is that Irish men change slowly. A gay man might struggle with his identity but the straight man struggles with his identity too. I think the back against the wall joke can be a way of stating that you are not gay to your friends. This shows how insecure some straight men can be.

We are changing but slowly. I never thought I'd see same sex marriage in my life time in Ireland. Homosexuality was illegal only a short while ago.

All of the above is me trying to explain how some straight posters might post or say things that you find offensive without meaning to offend. This is not me trying to defend people who deliberately try to hurt or offend

cgcsb

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I say this with all respect but at times the term homophobia or homophobic are over used on this forum.

No they aren't indeed it is not used enough in the real world. You don't get to define homophobia for a gay person, you don't suffer from it, so it's not your place to claim overuse.

Sleeper12 wrote: »

This can cause visitors to the forum to react in a negative way. This is my observation. I don't mean everyone overuses these terms but some do.

then visitors to this forum need to check themselves, not the other way around.

Sleeper12 wrote: »

A gang of men down the pub might joke about keeping your back to the wall or something childish like that but most wouldn't knowingly say it in front of a gay person. And believe it or not they wouldn't mean any offence by it. That isn't to say that you can't feel offended by it.

No no no no, that kind of thing is NOT acceptable, regardless if, to the best of your knowledge, there are no gay persons in earshot. If you were sitting around talking about how you'd be afraid of meeting black guys on a dark night, even in all-white company, that wouldn't be ok either. Infact the gay thing is worse because how exactly do you know there are no gay persons sitting next to you?

You and your mates down the pub might think that such carry on is ok for grown adults to engage in, but it is not, it is homophobic abuse, it's bullying and it creates an intimidating and hostile environment for gay people, it fosters violence, promotes hatred and is damaging to our mental health. If you are a fair minded straight person you should not tolerate it either. I certainly won't be putting up with it, so you can get the idea that we must 'put up or shut up' straight out of your head.

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I'm 50 in a few weeks. In the 60s most men didn't use shampoo, they used soap and water instead. Aftershave was seen as perfume & a man's man wouldn't be caught dead using it. They only drank Guinness because it was a man's drink. A larger drinker was less of a man. By the 80s male collage students were wearing eye liner, mousse, gel etc.

What I'm trying to say is that Irish men change slowly. A gay man might struggle with his identity but the straight man struggles with his identity too. I think the back against the wall joke can be a way of stating that you are not gay to your friends. This shows how insecure some straight men can be.

We are changing but slowly. I never thought I'd see same sex marriage in my life time in Ireland. Homosexuality was illegal only a short while ago.

All of the above is me trying to explain how some straight posters might post or say things that you find offensive without meaning to offend. This is not me trying to defend people who deliberately try to hurt or offend

With all due respect, who cares? the circumstances of your upbringing doesn't mean that you are incapable of learning new things. Gay people are FORCED, from the time they are children, to adjust their behavior, accept bullying and verbal(sometimes physical) abuse, and be constantly outside of our comfort zone. Now that it's 2017, the oul lads you speak of may make, a very very very very small accommodation for the gays and perhaps cease hurling vicious homophobic abuse around the place. Perhaps this slight behavioral adjustment on your part isn't too much to ask, perhaps it's meeting us half way (well about 0.000001% of the way)

Sleeper12

cgcsb wrote:

No they aren't indeed it is not used enough in the real world. You don't get to define homophobia for a gay person, you don't suffer from it, so it's not your place to claim overuse.

Here's the thing. Look up the dictionary definition of homophobia and stick to that. Anything else isn't homophobia. It might be offensive & hurtful but not everything is homophobia.

I know men making comments as I described before (none of us want to read them again) is wrong, wrong, wrong. I'd never talk like that. Ever. I have adopted nieces from Africa, a gay niece, a very outwardly gay nephew and half my daughter's friends are gay. Please don't think I'm saying that it's alright to talk like that about gay people or certain ways about black people. It is not. I'm just trying to show where this ignorance comes from and that it will take a long time for us to slowly change it.

With the best intentions in the world I say that calling something homophobic when it's not doesn't help you at all. It has no meaning. Loony left /extreme right. Don't let the term homophobia be treated like left & right.

I genuinely mean no offence by my comments. I won't reply on this thread again as I don't want to upset anyone. You'll either see the point I'm trying to make or you won't. Me coming back to repeat myself won't help anyone

cgcsb

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Here's the thing. Look up the dictionary definition of homophobia and stick to that. Anything else isn't homophobia. It might be offensive & hurtful but not everything is homophobia.

I know men making comments as I described before (none of us want to read them again) is wrong, wrong, wrong. I'd never talk like that. Ever. I have adopted nieces from Africa, a gay niece, a very outwardly gay nephew and half my daughter's friends are gay. Please don't think I'm saying that it's alright to talk like that about gay people or certain ways about black people. It is not. I'm just trying to show where this ignorance comes from and that it will take a long time for us to slowly change it.

With the best intentions in the world I say that calling something homophobic when it's not doesn't help you at all. It has no meaning. Loony left /extreme right. Don't let the term homophobia be treated like left & right.

I genuinely mean no offence by my comments. I won't reply on this thread again as I don't want to upset anyone. You'll either see the point I'm trying to make or you won't. Me coming back to repeat myself won't help anyone

Homphobia: a fear or hatred of homosexuals, making hateful comments about putting your backs to the wall is pure and simple homophobic hatred and I'll call it exactly that.

I see your point perfectly you are making excuses for ignorance and explaining why people are ignorant. We all know perfectly well why people are ignorant.

Goodshape

Sleeper12 wrote: »

some straight posters might post or say things that you find offensive without meaning to offend.

And in the same respect, words like homophobic may be used to describe those posts or posters without meaning to offend either.

"Bums against the wall", for example, is a homophobic remark. It's hurtful, I can tell you that, and it is also literally "showing a dislike of or prejudice against homosexual people". You might not have realised that, but there you go. We can all learn something.


It'd be wonderful if we all had the patience, every time, to smile and calmly explain that those and other similar remarks or actions are hurtful, or to calmly and politely explain, again (and again), why we feel we're entitled to not be ridiculed – even passively or "without meaning to offend" – by colleagues in work, or 'friends' in the pub, or anywhere at all.


For a lot of straight people, however well meaning they might be, I'm sure it's fascinating to look in here for a day and maybe get a few 'questions' answered or, in worse cases, to practice some notion of "freedom of speech" and see how the snowflakes react. But even the well meaning questions can get very tiring.

This probably and hopefully doesn't need to be a "safe space" in the no-debate-allowed sense of the word, but it's not a classroom for the straight majority either. A post from somebody feeling down after experiencing something they considered homophobic, should not have to argue with passers by about the definition of homophobia or what the intention of some remark or action might have been.

Those "debates" can rage on in After Hours and I'll be happy not to look at them. On this forum, if it were up to me, I think I'd take a stricter approach to weeding out such "debate" in any thread that isn't specifically asking for it.

Because arguing on Internet forums is a terrible way to learn anything anyway. People get intrenched in their views, nobody ever wants to back down and "lose" the "argument". Best thing to do is just be quiet and read for a while. Trust us, the fascinating questions and ponderments you've got have almost certainly been asked and answered many times before.

seamus

Sleeper12 wrote: »

All of the above is me trying to explain how some straight posters might post or say things that you find offensive without meaning to offend.

And I think most people get that.

However, just because someone doesn't mean to offend, doesn't mean it should be ignored. When something offensive is said, be that out of actual malice or straight-up ignorance, they should be called out on it.

Those who say it with malice, can hide behind the ignorant as a defence for what they're saying. Call out the ignorance, and those who don't mean to offend will stop saying it. Which makes the malicious people stick out like a sore thumb.

And that's including your 90-year-old granny using words like "Nig-nog" or "******". There's no excuse for letting it go and saying, "ah sure, you know".

People don't like being corrected. So even if they didn't mean any offence, they can react negatively to being corrected. And tough sh1t. They need to be grown ups about it and not throw a tantrum because someone else corrected them.

Ten of Swords

Goodshape wrote: »

A post from somebody feeling down after experiencing something they considered homophobic, should not have to argue with passers by about the definition of homophobia or what the intention of some remark or action might have been.

Those "debates" can rage on in After Hours and I'll be happy not to look at them. On this forum, if it were up to me, I think I'd take a stricter approach to weeding out such "debate" in any thread that isn't specifically asking for it.

Very well said,

Completely agree with this 100%

cgcsb

It's really perplexing to see people say 'I want to define myself out of homophobia, because being called homophobic hurts my feelings, I don't mean any offence when I degrade, ridicule, belittle and humiliate gay people, while, as far as I can tell, none of them are around, so I am not homophobic.' That level of privilege needs to be firmly smacked out of people's heads.

Sleeper12

cgcsb wrote:

I see your point perfectly you are making excuses for ignorance and explaining why people are ignorant. We all know perfectly well why people are ignorant.

I didn't make excuses for anyone. I just pointed out that it will take time for men in particular to modernise their opinions and attitudes. I said these comments are wrong and I wouldn't let anyone in my company talk like that. I go through life thinking would I like someone to say this thing to my son or daughter. If the answer is no then I wouldn't say it or I would pull someone up for saying all the while hoping that someone might be around to defend my son or daughter if someone makes offensive remarks.

pilly

Deleted User wrote: »

This area of the forum is a relatively quiet one. Only a few posts a day really. Sometimes none. So the mods have a good chance to catch the people you describe quite quickly - especially if we the user base correctly use the "report" function to help them in a timely manner. But I am curious which posts and posters you mean given it is such a quiet forum. Perhaps you might PM me some examples if you are trying not to name names? I am just genuinely curious - rather than interested in a witch hunt - who or what you are referring to.

But I think your suggestion is a wonderful one. The rest of us need to post more often and - when things get heated - to do so calmly and smoothly to represent not just ourselves but our whole group well. 1 bad poster in 10 has a lot more noise than 1 bad poster in 100. They can post the same level of bile - to less effect - depending on the back ground noise they post it against.

But though I agree with what you wrote in the paragraph I quote above - I would add to it. One thing we always have to deal with in forums - and like the user above I myself was a moderator on some religious/atheist forums so I see this often - is people who are actively looking to be offended.

Some people can seem normal enough until they finally catch you putting some linguistic foot wrong - or making a simple error. Then suddenly they are fire and brimstone screaming at you that you are somehow the worst kind of bigot.

Often such people are trolls. No denying that. But often such people have just had a bad time of it due to their being homosexual or transgender or whatever. And so they are looking for a bag they can punch. Their heart is in the right place - even if their acting on it comes out messed up.

There are horrible things - and offensive things - said to people in our community. And as the M in an MFF relationship I feel part of this community though not LGBT myself.

But I think that small but loud minority who take offence and scream about every little perceived slight - poison the well for when we have an actual real grievance. And we have to stand up to those elements in our own community and get them to tone down a bit lest we simply end up with the stereotype of being whingers who moan about anything. Then people start rolling out the modern buzz words like "triggered" and "snowflakes" to dismiss us. A genuine grievance becomes "Just the snowflakes getting triggered again".

There was an example only in the last weeks on this forum so I am wondering if this had any influence on your starting the thread. There is a user of boards who is very much involved in campaigning for things like the Marriage Referendum. Involved both here in Ireland and the recent successes in the country where he now lives where gay marriage has had positive results at polls.

A good story there is we helped finance some buses to bring back Irish Voters from the UK. We did not only bring back "yes" voters. The buses were open to all. But before boarding the bus we hosted a debate. The bus tickets - which was very cheap as they were subsidised by us organisers - included entry to that debate.

Said user flew all the way from his country of residence - not Ireland - to the UK and was the "yes" representative for the debate. He was invited as he has been a calm and articulate poster and speaker on the issue in the past. Flew over mostly at his own expense too.

So to see said user being called the worst kind of bigot in recent weeks on here by a rather shrill interlocutor - solely because of a simple mistyping of a word - basic human error in other words - was one part tragic and one part sheer comedy. In fact I call him "The Bigot" now when talking to him - just for the wry laugh and it is now our in-joke. Only yesterday I was asking him "DId you see the game - or were you off being biggotted again somewhere?".

But this kind of thing is not likely to do us any favours. When we are screaming "bigot" at the most genuine of people who are actively fighting alongside us on the front lines of struggles for rights and equality - then imagine how the greater world must view that. I can not imagine it is viewed well and - for more emotive speakers than the user who simply took it on the chin as an anomaly - how many others people might take it to heart and be pushed away in a climate where we should be fostering friendships - rather than dissolving them?

This is THE most intelligent post I've ever seen on Boards.

I really wish everyone would read this, take it in, digest it and try to get on a bit more.

cgcsb

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I didn't make excuses for anyone. I just pointed out that it will take time for men in particular to modernise their opinions and attitudes. I said these comments are wrong and I wouldn't let anyone in my company talk like that. I go through life thinking would I like someone to say this thing to my son or daughter. If the answer is no then I wouldn't say it or I would pull someone up for saying all the while hoping that someone might be around to defend my son or daughter if someone makes offensive remarks.

But you did say that such comments were not homophobic didn't you? Which is a rather large overstepping, on your part, of your knowledge of the topic.

deirdre_dub

Deleted User wrote: »

But this kind of thing is not likely to do us any favours. When we are screaming "bigot" at the most genuine of people who are actively fighting alongside us on the front lines of struggles for rights and equality - then imagine how the greater world must view that. I can not imagine it is viewed well and - for more emotive speakers than the user who simply took it on the chin as an anomaly - how many others people might take it to heart and be pushed away in a climate where we should be fostering friendships - rather than dissolving them?

First off, it sounds like your friend was wronged, and was taken up wrong on the Internet .

But I have a real problem when those who are "allies" or "activists" are given carte blanche to act like utter scumbags because, arrah shure, their heart is in the right place, and they are "on our side". NO! If you are on our side, then you, by definition, never engage in such behaviour.

End of!

And it is something I've seen time and time again. Asswipes who feel they are privileged by virtue of having "virtue"! No - we need to be able to call out our "allies", "activists" and other sacred cows.

You get respect by showing the world that you believe you deserve it. If you show that you believe you deserve allies who treat you like scum, then that's what you'll get.

Can not argue or add to that. Clearly I was talking about the people who are genuine. You are talking about a different kettle or rotten fish heads entirely and I can only agree.

Sleeper12

cgcsb wrote: »

But you did say that such comments were not homophobic didn't you? Which is a rather large overstepping, on your part, of your knowledge of the topic.

No. I don't think I said that.
Here's me saying I wouldn't comment about "homophobic" again on this thread but if I didn't say it then I didn't say it

When racism comes up on other forums one poster loves to say that Black people statistically have a lower IQ than White people. Personally I doubt it's true & if it is it's down to nutrition or something. Anyway he insists it's not a racist comment if it's fact, however it is racist if you use it in conversations to beat the Black man down or to try use it to prove that the White man is beter/superioro black. Your intent is racist. Point is sometimes something isn't racist/ homophobic when said one way but the exact same thing said with different intent would be

Not making excuses for anyone here anyone making back to the wall comment is plain ignorant imo. I ask myself why do some men make comments like. Men that really don't seem to have an issue with gay people. I think it's a male defense mechanism. It's like "I don't have a problem with gay people, so long as he doesn't try it on with me" The same guy wouldn't be beating the ladies off with a stick & I don't believe he thinks that more gay men would be into him than straight women. I honestly believe that men say these things to make sure their mates don't think that they are gay. I think a lot of straight men are insecure about their own maleness.

Let's set the record straight as far as gay men "trying it on with me". I'm 50. I owned hairsalons for almost 30 years. Some gay men worked with me. None tried it on with me. I was never pushed, gropped kissed. Nothing. Myself, my wife & another couple used to go to Republica night club n Kildare Street on Sunday night. Sunday was gay night. Ther'd be 10 girls if even that there. My friend & I were asked most weeks by gay men if we wanted to dance or whatever. Thanks for the offer but thats my wife over there would be my reply.Cool, no problem was the typical answer. No one ever stole a kiss groped me or anything like that. It was flattering. My friend & I would say whoever got the most approaches in the night won a pint. I went to the gym for years. I'd be starkers in the sauna. nobody groped me ever. Either I'm an ugly fecker or gay men can behave themselves despite what some people think.

That's my experience of gay men. Not much different to straight men. Better dress sense maybe.