Pity bus users are not as motivated as cyclists

Boulevardier

I passed Leinster house yesterday, where about 200 cyclists were holding a "die in" to highlight safety and cycle-lane issues. In the past, I have seen large and well-organised groups of cyclists holding "critical mass" and other events.

Would that the same could be said of bus users! In the 80s, I was secretary of a transport users' group called APTU. No matter what we did, we never got more than about 8 people to a public meeting. Only a few maverick politicians such as Sean D. Loftus showed any interest in the issue.

There are valid issues about fares, timetables, bus lanes etc. etc. in which passengers should have a lot to say. Of course, nobody expects all of, say, Dublin's bus users to turn up at a demo, but if they did it would dwarf any demo held in Dublin in many years!

Could it be a class thing? The cyclist-activists seem to be overwhelmingly educated middle class, while bus commuters are often lower-income people with no time or motivation to act. Rail users have "Rail Users Ireland" and Motorists of course have the well-funded AA in their corner.

At the end of the day, we bus users end up at the tender mercies of the companies and, even worse, the NTA, without representation of our own interests. We are our own worst enemies. Pity.

NewCorkLad

Maybe its cause cyclists are actually dying on the roads, instead of being inconvenienced.

amcalester

I think a lot of people would be concerned that by campaigning for increased bus funding this will lead to increased wage inflation among staff rather than an increase in service.

loyatemu

15 people have been killed whilst cycling this year, & everyone who cycles regularly will have had occasions where they were nearly hit by a car, bus or truck. This is probably why they are more motivated to protest than bus passengers.

magicbastarder

to add to the above - most of the people attending that demonstration last night probably actively think of themselves as cyclists.
not many people self identify as 'a bus passenger', or regard fellow travellers as having very similar needs.

devnull

loyatemu wrote: »

15 people have been killed whilst cycling this year, & everyone who cycles regularly will have had occasions where they were nearly hit by a car, bus or truck. This is probably why they are more motivated to protest than bus passengers.

Indeed and in some peoples eyes the cyclist is always right.

As a commuter who uses both Dublin Bikes and public transport on my way to work, the number of drivers who do not use their indicators or are too busy on their phone to focus on the road and the ones who driver aggressively certainly is a problem but I respect that they are not in the majority.

The thing is often with any conflict on the road even when the motorist is wrong they will vent their aggression at the cyclist even when they made a very late lane swap, failed to use indicators or broke lights as they were to absorbed in their phone conversation.

Boulevardier

This pre-dates the issue of cyclist deaths. The cycling lobby have been adept for years at promoting their interests, especially when it comes to cycle lanes.

Meanwhile, buses are repeatedly being slowed down by cyclists and sometimes drivers on bus lanes. Cyclists are lobbying for segregated lanes. Why aren't bus users demanding strict bus-only lanes with no cyclists (or taxis) on them?

crosstownk

Boulevardier wrote: »

Meanwhile, buses are repeatedly being slowed down by cyclists and sometimes drivers on bus lanes.

Slightly OT but most bus lanes are also cycle lanes. During rush hour it's often the frequently stopping bus that will slow down the cyclist.

Boulevardier

On that point, my own feeling is that cyclists should be required to pull in when there is a bus behind them.

devnull

Boulevardier wrote: »

On that point, my own feeling is that cyclists should be required to pull in when there is a bus behind them.

That's ridiculous to be honest in my opinion. I have no problem for giving a bus space to overtake me when needed, it happens every day to me, most drivers fair dues do actually not take on any risky overtake attempts but of course some do.

If I couldn't cycle for part of my daily commute I'd simply go back to being in a car and that would make the roads far worse so anything the buses would gain from this would be lost by greater congestion. The simple fact is many people cycle because being able to do so is the quickest and most direct way to their destination since they can take it where they want rather than being limited by bus or other routes that wouldn't do that.

I'm frequently slowed down by buses stopping and pulling in and honestly I get inconvenienced far more by that than buses do by me.

Boulevardier

Let us not forget that a bus may have over 80 people aboard trying to get to work, as against a small handful of cyclists.

If you could not cycle (and I don't see why that is), why not switch to the bus instead of the car?

In any event, I agree that most cyclists are reasonable. Nevertheless if cyclists want segregated lanes, then I think bus users deserve the same.

amcalester

Boulevardier wrote: »

Let us not forget that a bus may have over 80 people aboard trying to get to work, as against a small handful of cyclists.

If you could not cycle (and I don't see why that is), why not switch to the bus instead of the car?

In any event, I agree that most cyclists are reasonable. Nevertheless if cyclists want segregated lanes, then I think bus users deserve the same.

Can you quantify how much time is lost by waiting behind cyclists?

I commuted 22km from Citywest to Deansgrange yesterday evening at an average speed of approx. 24kmh, how fast would a Dublin Bus average over the same distance?

FWIW I am regularly held up by both the 65B and 75 along my commute.

Dyr

amcalester wrote: »

Can you quantify how much time is lost by waiting behind cyclists?

I commuted 22km from Citywest to Deansgrange yesterday evening at an average speed of approx. 24kmh, how fast would a Dublin Bus average over the same distance?

FWIW I am regularly held up by both the 65B and 75 along my commute.

How many passengers were you carrying?

Boulevardier

That sort of brings me back to my original point.

Bus users should be demanding something much better, but we simply do not organise ourselves enough to represent our interests.

srsly78

Boulevardier wrote: »

Let us not forget that a bus may have over 80 people aboard trying to get to work, as against a small handful of cyclists.

If you could not cycle (and I don't see why that is), why not switch to the bus instead of the car?

In any event, I agree that most cyclists are reasonable. Nevertheless if cyclists want segregated lanes, then I think bus users deserve the same.

Cyclists are allowed in bus lanes, private cars are not. Cars are the ones causing delays, and existing laws are not enforced.

amcalester

Bambi wrote: »

How many passengers were you carrying?

Just me.

My point was that over a relatively long distance (for a commuter cyclist) and through areas that aren't particularly congested my average speed is higher than that of a bus.

The 65 for example travels an approximate distance of 30km at 18kmh so how much are these buses actually being help up by? (Based on Google Maps and DB off-peak timings)

Not much, if at all.

To add, the 65B travels 17km in 64 minutes so about 16kmh which is easily achievable for most people on a bike.

devnull

Boulevardier wrote: »

If you could not cycle (and I don't see why that is), why not switch to the bus instead of the car?

Because a combination of Bus and Luas would take much longer and cost much more.

Anywhere on the green line to The Point for example is VASTLY quicker by changing to Dublin Bikes at Charlemont and vastly cheaper too.

crosstownk

devnull wrote: »

I'm frequently slowed down by buses stopping and pulling in and honestly I get inconvenienced far more by that than buses do by me.

That's my experience also.

As an example, if I pass DB 33,41A and/or BÉ 101 in Dorset St., they may pass me again around Dublin Airport but mostly they don't - and that's outbound in the morning. So I can't see how I'm slowing them down.

XPS_Zero

Middle class people have no problems moaning, my canvass of Mount Merrion made me wanna come back with an assault rifle and do a mass shooting.

One side was worried about a council estate being built "near" them (on the other side of Stillorgan) because it would "hurt property values" (these were people well into their 70s no intention of selling up) but the best was back in the day I hear in 2004 when Berties govt were doing transport 21 they were moaning that 10% of their gardens had to be trimmed back to make way for a bus lane in this general area, because none of them take the bus...like the rest of us don't count you see, THEY don't get the bus even little Aaron loike totes drives so like fock y'a know?

magicbastarder

Boulevardier wrote: »

This pre-dates the issue of cyclist deaths.

an unfortunate choice of words?

bk

Interestingly, in Amsterdam, when cycle lanes are closed to do maintenance (yes, they actually do regular, continuous maintenance of cycle lanes, imagine!), they actually close the bus lane next to the cycle lane and turn it into a temporary dedicated cycle lane. The idea of mixing cyclists and massive vehicles is pretty abhorrent to them.

This really shouldn't be a cyclist versus bus users thing. It should really be pedestrians and cyclists and public transport users together demanding better infrastructure for the most efficient forms of transport.

Boulevardier

"Interestingly, in Amsterdam, when cycle lanes are closed to do maintenance (yes, they actually do regular, continuous maintenance of cycle lanes, imagine!), they actually close the bus lane next to the cycle lane and turn it into a temporary dedicated cycle lane. The idea of mixing cyclists and massive vehicles is pretty abhorrent to them."

What happens to the buses in that situation? Do they lose priority over general traffic? If so, I would be very unhappy.

end of the road

Boulevardier wrote: »

"Interestingly, in Amsterdam, when cycle lanes are closed to do maintenance (yes, they actually do regular, continuous maintenance of cycle lanes, imagine!), they actually close the bus lane next to the cycle lane and turn it into a temporary dedicated cycle lane. The idea of mixing cyclists and massive vehicles is pretty abhorrent to them."

What happens to the buses in that situation? Do they lose priority over general traffic? If so, I would be very unhappy.

agreed, especially as it's likely bus users and even pedestrians, would be in greater numbers then cyclists.

LeinsterDub

Boulevardier wrote: »

This pre-dates the issue of cyclist deaths. The cycling lobby have been adept for years at promoting their interests, especially when it comes to cycle lanes.

Meanwhile, buses are repeatedly being slowed down by cyclists and sometimes drivers on bus lanes. Cyclists are lobbying for segregated lanes. Why aren't bus users demanding strict bus-only lanes with no cyclists (or taxis) on them?

Because while they've been adept. No one is listening. Cycling infrastructure is ****e in Ireland. Also the primary cause of bus delays are firstly dwell times and secondly the number of stops.

nilescraneo

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Because while they've been adept. No one is listening. Cycling infrastructure is ****e in Ireland. Also the primary cause of bus delays are firstly dwell times and secondly the number of stops.

Disagree. The primary source of bus delays is traffic and little or no consistent bus priority measures, and no enforcement of the priority measures that do exist.

devnull

nilescraneo wrote: »

Disagree. The primary source of bus delays is traffic and little or no consistent bus priority measures, and no enforcement of the priority measures that do exist.

On cross city routes the biggest delay is dwell time without a doubt for me, outside the city center it's not such an issue, but any bus going through the city center it's a serious issue.

Infini

I do agree cycling infrastructure should be better overall and even segregated to avoid mixing as its bad in some places. That being said as a driver and a cyclist theres a few out there who think they own the road as well and some are utter idiots without any lights or cutting across into other lanes without checking their surroundings or warning.

LeinsterDub

nilescraneo wrote: »

Disagree. The primary source of bus delays is traffic and little or no consistent bus priority measures, and no enforcement of the priority measures that do exist.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/buses-going-cashless-in-bid-to-slash-journey-times-35407633.html

The NTA agree with me or rather I agree with them.

Corca Baiscinn

Boulevardier wrote: »

Meanwhile, buses are repeatedly being slowed down by cyclists and sometimes drivers on bus lanes. Cyclists are lobbying for segregated lanes. Why aren't bus users demanding strict bus-only lanes with no cyclists (or taxis) on them?

Maybe they did through the ballot box or something, aren't there plans for some rapid transit bus routes which wont allow other buses or cyclists in them? Can't be everywhere obviously due to space constraints but whenever it happens it should help

LeinsterDub

Infini wrote: »

theres a few out there who think they own the road as well and some are utter idiots without any lights or cutting across into other lanes without checking their surroundings or warning.

I know how inconsiderate of those driving tons of metal around to not even bother with basic maintenance or due care. Owe I see you where engaging in whataboutery about cyclists nevermind so.

schemingbohemia

Bus Connects will have separate bus lanes and cycle lanes.

bigar

How easily overlooked is the fact that the reason there is a need for bus lanes at all is because there are too many private cars on the road.

Take drastic matters to reduce private car use in city centres to inconvenience them as much as possible.
Reducing this mode of traffic increases space for buses so they can move faster and more effectively. In turn, this will convince people that public transport is a good way to get into town and start using it more.

As long as policy makers are placing the car on top, we will never see a change.

brokenarms

There is no room in Dublin for segregated cycle lanes. I wish there was.
Cycles are best kept in bus lanes.. At least they are sharing the space with pro drivers and not every tom dick and harry with a b licence. I do know there are a few exceptions to this, but for the most part, bus drivers look after cycles. I would rather have 100 cycles than 100 extra cars..

Cycles can be a pain in the arse when the same one keeps leap frogging the bus. And stopping the bus from getting up to the speed limit. If a bus could get away from the leap frogger, the bus could get so far ahead, the cycle will not catch up again.
If there was some solution to this, things could improve. Either giving bus or bike priority by law.
I know there are some on here how may well be able to keep a good average speed up, but what about old Dorris cycling along at 5kph. Thats the cycles that I find is the big hold up. Fit cyclist get away quick and disappear into the distance. Not the problem.

end of the road

cyclists should not be in the bus lanes. the bus lanes should be for busses only. if there is no room for dedicated cycle lanes that's unfortunate but the bus lanes should not be used as an alternative in my view. in my experience cycling and busses are just not compatible within the same lanes. i would wager that bus users are in the majority between the to so their needs should be catered to. then later on we could maybe consider elevated cycle lanes. but for now the bus users should be prioritised and measures to discourage cars from the city implemented.

Danjamin1

end of the road wrote: »

cyclists should not be in the bus lanes. the bus lanes should be for busses only. if there is no room for dedicated cycle lanes that's unfortunate but the bus lanes should not be used as an alternative in my view. in my experience cycling and busses are just not compatible within the same lanes. i would wager that bus users are in the majority between the to so their needs should be catered to. then later on we could maybe consider elevated cycle lanes. but for now the bus users should be prioritised and measures to discourage cars from the city implemented.

I'd disagree with that, there's a reasonably healthy respect between most cyclists & bus drivers. Most cyclists are capable of an average speed greater than 15km/h, which I believe is the average speed of a cross city bus. I've personally been held up by buses more often than I've held them up on my bike. But I don't complain about that because it's only a minor inconvenience. I'd personally rather be in the bus lane with buses than on a segregated cycle lane that overlaps a bus stop.

Buses are far more likely to be held up by the queues of private cars sitting in the bus lane because they can't be bothered following the rules. So why is it always cyclists that people have an issue with? I'm not saying cyclists are perfect, there's plenty of dopes out there but that's not exclusive to cyclists. I really think people have their priorities wrong when it comes to this issue.

LeinsterDub

brokenarms wrote: »

There is no room in Dublin for segregated cycle lanes. I wish there was.

There is plenty of room in lots of places. Space on the carriage way will need to be given over to bikes, parking spaces lost, in places a few trees will need to removed and grass verges in others, in others wide paths would have to be made smaller.

LeinsterDub

end of the road wrote: »

cyclists should not be in the bus lanes. the bus lanes should be for busses only. if there is no room for dedicated cycle lanes that's unfortunate but the bus lanes should not be used as an alternative in my view. in my experience cycling and busses are just not compatible within the same lanes. i would wager that bus users are in the majority between the to so their needs should be catered to. then later on we could maybe consider elevated cycle lanes. but for now the bus users should be prioritised and measures to discourage cars from the city implemented.

Isn't funny you're here arguing the needs of the many here when it suits your agenda. In other places you've argued the exact oppositem

Dyr

LeinsterDub wrote: »

There is plenty of room in lots of places. Space on the carriage way will need to be given over to bikes, parking spaces lost, in places a few trees will need to removed and grass verges in others, in others wide paths would have to be made smaller.

So basically screw the pedestrians over for space...again

monument

Bambi wrote: »

So basically screw the pedestrians over for space...again

Are you trying to claim pedestrians mainly walk on carriageways, car parking spaces and grass verges?

LeinsterDub

Bambi wrote: »

So basically screw the pedestrians over for space...again

Nope. In places such as the Finglas Road there is plenty of space. DCC have already painted on one of their pretend cycle lanes there. What should happen is some of the grass is removed and the cycle lane becomes segregated and the junctions are fixed. There is plenty of room to walk.

blondeonblonde

Boulevardier wrote: »

Let us not forget that a bus may have over 80 people aboard trying to get to work, as against a small handful of cyclists.

If you could not cycle (and I don't see why that is), why not switch to the bus instead of the car?

In any event, I agree that most cyclists are reasonable. Nevertheless if cyclists want segregated lanes, then I think bus users deserve the same.

Do you honestly think cyclists want to share lanes with a 10 tonne vehicle constantly pulling in front of them to leave off passengers?! Get real. Cars in the bus lane are much more likely to hold up buses. Try cycling up the north or south quays in Dublin some time to see how intimidating and frightening it can be to have a huge vehicle hurtling past with a clearance of less than a metre... It's not for the faint hearted.
My wife would love to be able to cycle to work but is put off by the danger of sharing the road with vehicles that view cyclists as an obstruction as they accelerate to the next set of traffic lights. I'm sure there are many others of the same view.

monument

brokenarms wrote: »

There is no room in Dublin for segregated cycle lanes. I wish there was.
Cycles are best kept in bus lanes.. At least they are sharing the space with pro drivers and not every tom dick and harry with a b licence. I do know there are a few exceptions to this, but for the most part, bus drivers look after cycles. I would rather have 100 cycles than 100 extra cars..

Cycles can be a pain in the arse when the same one keeps leap frogging the bus. And stopping the bus from getting up to the speed limit. If a bus could get away from the leap frogger, the bus could get so far ahead, the cycle will not catch up again.
If there was some solution to this, things could improve. Either giving bus or bike priority by law.
I know there are some on here how may well be able to keep a good average speed up, but what about old Dorris cycling along at 5kph. Thats the cycles that I find is the big hold up. Fit cyclist get away quick and disappear into the distance. Not the problem.

There’s tons of space to be reallocated to cycling.

The key bit is that it’s reallocated — that’s what happened and is still happening in The Netherlands and elsewhere.

Stephen15

brokenarms wrote: »

There is no room in Dublin for segregated cycle lanes. I wish there was.
Cycles are best kept in bus lanes.. At least they are sharing the space with pro drivers and not every tom dick and harry with a b licence. I do know there are a few exceptions to this, but for the most part, bus drivers look after cycles. I would rather have 100 cycles than 100 extra cars..

Cycles can be a pain in the arse when the same one keeps leap frogging the bus. And stopping the bus from getting up to the speed limit. If a bus could get away from the leap frogger, the bus could get so far ahead, the cycle will not catch up again.
If there was some solution to this, things could improve. Either giving bus or bike priority by law.
I know there are some on here how may well be able to keep a good average speed up, but what about old Dorris cycling along at 5kph. Thats the cycles that I find is the big hold up. Fit cyclist get away quick and disappear into the distance. Not the problem.

Get rid of cars in the cc and general traffic lanes could be turned into cycle lanes leaving buses and taxis as the only vehicles within the city centre.

Unfortunately our inept City Council want to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds by thinking they can benefit from having city thats public transport, cycling and pedestrian friendly aswell as keeping the benefits from having parking charges and car park owners paying rates.

I was on a 145 one day there a couple of months ago up near Donnybrook Depot there a few months ago and there was a cyclist cycling right in the middle of the bus lane even though there was a perfectly adequate cycle right beside him.

LeinsterDub

Stephen15 wrote: »

I was on a 145 one day there a couple of months ago up near Donnybrook Depot there a few months ago and there was a cyclist cycling right in the middle of the bus lane even though there was a perfectly adequate cycle right beside him.

And? We've all got stories like this about every form of transport. Sure a few weeks ago a woman was arrested for walking in front of the Luas.

bk

Boulevardier wrote: »

What happens to the buses in that situation? Do they lose priority over general traffic? If so, I would be very unhappy.

They use the normal road with cars.

Clearly this is a temporary measure, while works are done on one particular street, obviously it doesn't happen across the whole city.

end of the road wrote: »

agreed, especially as it's likely bus users and even pedestrians, would be in greater numbers then cyclists.

And you would be horribly wrong!

Cycling is by far the highest mode of transport in Amsterdam. 40% mode share. All public transport, which also includes many tram lines and Metros is just 29%

So it goes to reason that cyclists and cycling infrastructure is priority number one there.

You should take a trip to Amsterdam, it is a real eye opener, buses are hardly used their at all, but bikes are everywhere.

But the overall point is that the reason so many people feel safe enough to cycle their, is because the cycling infrastructure is so good there and they truly are given priority.

jive

LeinsterDub wrote: »

And? We've all got stories like this about every form of transport. Sure a few weeks ago a woman was arrested for walking in front of the Luas.

Not to mention the fact that the cycle lane leading up to and beside donnybrook depot is a disgrace (city bound) and not 'adequate' by any stretch of the imagination.

bk

brokenarms wrote: »

There is no room in Dublin for segregated cycle lanes. I wish there was.

I disagree, go to Amsterdam and you will see.

Streets that are just as narrow, if not even narrower then Dublin. Yet fully segregated cycle lanes everywhere.

And yes their are buses too, right in a separated road near them.

But you know what their is very little of, cars. Almost non in the core city center.

Gives you plenty of space for high quality footpaths, cycle paths and bus/tram lanes.

end of the road

bk wrote: »

And you would be horribly wrong!

Cycling is by far the highest mode of transport in Amsterdam. 40% mode share. All public transport, which also includes many tram lines and Metros is just 29%

i was actually refering to dublin in my statement, apologies for the lack of clarity.

07Lapierre

brokenarms wrote: »

Cycles can be a pain in the arse when the same one keeps leap frogging the bus. And stopping the bus from getting up to the speed limit. If a bus could get away from the leap frogger, the bus could get so far ahead, the cycle will not catch up again.
If there was some solution to this, things could improve. Either giving bus or bike priority by law.
.

Whats stopping a 3 litre diesel bus, capable of travelling at 60kph from overtaking an old biddy cycling at 10kph?....its the CARS in the lane on the right hand side of the bus! :rolleyes:

bk

end of the road wrote: »

i was actually refering to dublin in my statement, apologies for the lack of clarity.

Ah, no bother at all, fair enough.

But that shows the chicken and egg problem we have here. Why aren't cyclists given priority like this here? Answer: because their is relatively so few cycling. Why are so few cycling? Answer: because they don't feel safe because they aren't given priority.

The thing is, if you go back to the 70's, Amsterdams cycling numbers were almost as low as Dublin are today. But they still made the concerted effort to build high quality cycling infrastructure and give those small few priority. Which of course in time lead to massive numbers cycling.

It was very much a case of built it and they will come.

I've no doubt that their are many people sitting in cars in congestion or squeezed onto an overpacked buses in Dublin, who would love to be cycling instead, if only it was safe to do so.

Danjamin1

Stephen15 wrote: »

Get rid of cars in the cc and general traffic lanes could be turned into cycle lanes leaving buses and taxis as the only vehicles within the city centre.

Unfortunately our inept City Council want to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds by thinking they can benefit from having city thats public transport, cycling and pedestrian friendly aswell as keeping the benefits from having parking charges and car park owners paying rates.

I was on a 145 one day there a couple of months ago up near Donnybrook Depot there a few months ago and there was a cyclist cycling right in the middle of the bus lane even though there was a perfectly adequate cycle right beside him.

That’s not an adequate cycle lane, it’s a disaster. I used to cycle that route daily and the cycle lane in in a poor state of disrepair