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Gender pay gap- real or just a result of bad negotiations?

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    #152
    grogi
    Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    VinLieger wrote: »
    LOL that a pretty stupid anaology but whatever.

    Why? The principle of indirect observation is exactly the same.
    VinLieger wrote: »
    Of course they don't have asking about unconscious bias but that's the very point im making because you can't have one like that its impossible to prove 100%.

    You're right. Nothing can be proven with 100% accuracy. But we try as much as possible to keep the certainty high...
    It definitely exists but saying its the reason for specific thing's in society is just your get out of jail free card when

    Sure, the correlation and causation are often difficult to distinguish, especially in social studies. But the alternative is to say nothing does matter. There is nothing we can do. We have to at least try and should we fail, we'll try something else.
    all the other statistical data is pointing against you

    What other statistical data?! Sources please, from a reputable source - not Daily Mail.


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    #153
    PeterParker957
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭PeterParker957


    VinLieger wrote: »
    LOL that a pretty stupid anaology but whatever.

    Of course they don't have asking about unconscious bias but that's the very point im making because you can't have one like that its impossible to prove 100%.

    It definitely exists but saying its the reason for specific thing's in society is just your get out of jail free card when all the other statistical data is pointing against you

    Bold bit +1,000

    Suuure - quantum physics/da feelz - two sides of the same coin!!!

    Jesus wept!!


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    #154
    wakka12
    Registered Users Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    grogi wrote: »
    Of course it is a generalisation. I personally don't know you, your nieces etc to draw any conclusions about particular cases. It doesn't have to be dirt, I hope you understood the given example. It is a pattern that is constantly repeated.

    When we talk about a society, about statistics etc - it is a generalisation by definition.

    That example was bad though. You talked about young girls being condemned for playing in dirt or whatever but if a young boy wanted to play with dolls or dresses or makeup it'd be ten time worse, and they'd be bullied by their peers on top of that. Just a small example to counter your women have everything so hard bs


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    #155
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    grogi wrote: »
    What other statistical data?! Sources please, from a reputable source - not Daily Mail.

    EVERY report on the gender pay gap that claims there is one but doesn't use like for like jobs
    grogi wrote: »
    Why? The principle of indirect observation is exactly the same.

    How is the principle of indirect observation EXACTLY the same as proving/disproving unconcious bias


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    #156
    PeterParker957
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭PeterParker957


    wakka12 wrote: »
    That example was bad though. You talked about young girls being condemned for playing in dirt or whatever but if a young boy wanted to play with dolls or dresses or makeup it'd be ten time worse, and they'd be bullied by their peers on top of that. Just a small example to counter your women have everything so hard bs

    I once got a toy hoover and ironing board for Christmas - mid 70s sometime.

    My aunt (who bought it) was told by my mam that I wanted a football and the Shoot annual - which she got me.

    "Mark my words - she'll turn out to be one of them". Now I know that that means now!!!

    40 odd years later am not. Still love me footy tho!!!


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    #157
    PeterParker957
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭PeterParker957


    VinLieger wrote: »
    EVERY report on the gender pay gap that claims there is one but doesn't use like for like jobs

    The reason for the "denial" is that there is no gender pay gap.

    End of. Done. None.

    People who work less get paid less.

    Sinead thingy off the telly ? Currently suing TV3 ???

    6 years at the company - Alan Hughes has 15 and other skills such as writing and directing.

    Why the hell should she get the same pay ????


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    #158
    grogi
    Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    PeterParker957 wrote: »
    I once got a toy hoover and ironing board for Christmas - mid 70s sometime.

    My aunt (who bought it) was told by my mam that I wanted a football and the Shoot annual - which she got me.

    "Mark my words - she'll turn out to be one of them". Now I know that that means now!!!

    40 odd years later am not. Still love me footy tho!!!

    That's exactly what I mean - you had (and I still hope she is in good health) smart mother. She did not pushed you into the social convention and it worked great for you, you pursued the carrier you wanted.

    Unfortunately loads of girls (and boys) don't. Stereotypes are pushed onto them. Like that boy who wants to play with dolls will hear that it is not manly and needs to do some boyish stuff. Boys are discouraged from such behaviour and encourage to engage in more boyish play - that stimulates competition and spacial awareness.

    We (I am not pointing fingers - men and women) teach boys to be fighters, we teach girls not to. And as a result they behave differently in adult life. There are tons of such examples - why is it so difficult to acknowledge that it happens?


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    #159
    grogi
    Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    PeterParker957 wrote: »
    The reason for the "denial" is that there is no gender pay gap.

    Do you have any statistically significant data to back it up? Or is it simply your personal observation of a very few cases?


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    #160
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    PeterParker957 wrote: »
    The reason for the "denial" is that there is no gender pay gap.

    End of. Done. None.

    People who work less get paid less.

    Sinead thingy off the telly ? Currently suing TV3 ???

    6 years at the company - Alan Hughes has 15 and other skills such as writing and directing.

    Why the hell should she get the same pay ????
    To paraphrase: there is no pay gap because I say so. And I say so because I know. End of.

    There is more concrete evidence in Jehovah Witnesses preaching end of the world than in your posts.


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    #161
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,331 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    PeterParker957 wrote:
    Brian Dobson set a new Irish virtue signalling record when saying he was "baffled how Sharon ni Bheolain earns less than I do

    He has more experience and qualifications as a journalist. That's how!

    I can't tell the difference about the experience when they both read the news.


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    #162
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #163
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    That's not a pay gap then, that's an earnings gap as there are no women doing the same job as a man for the same time and with the same experience that are also being paid less


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    #164
    grogi
    Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Very true. I will be the last to state otherwise.

    Women don't (statistically, there are of course exceptions to the rule) pursue careers in STEM not because they are less capable, but because as girls they are constantly taught that boys are better at mathematics, physics - professions associated with brilliance.

    Now, women might be actually be less capable, but as long as we don't eliminate the educational and any other bias, we will not be able to tell the impact of the gender itself and not the gender stereotype.


    For full disclosure - I am a man. And I have personally witnessed gender pay gap in the like for like scenario.


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    #165
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    grogi wrote: »
    Do you have any statistically significant data to back it up? Or is it simply your personal observation of a very few cases?

    Again every report that claims there is one but doesn't compare like for like jobs is indirect proof there is no gender pay gap, because if there was you can bet money they would be doing that comparison


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    #166
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    grogi wrote: »
    Women don't (statistically, there are of course exceptions to the rule) pursue careers in STEM not because they are less capable, but because as girls they are constantly taught that boys are better at mathematics, physics - professions associated with brilliance.

    Lovely, more absolutely massive generalisations, that happens but please stop with your sweeping statements that imply it is happening to every single woman and girl


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    #167
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    grogi wrote: »
    Very true. I will be the last to state otherwise.

    Women don't (statistically, there are of course exceptions to the rule) pursue careers in STEM not because they are less capable, but because as girls they are constantly taught that boys are better at mathematics, physics - professions associated with brilliance.

    Now, women might be actually be less capable, but as long as we don't eliminate the educational and any other bias, we will not be able to tell the impact of the gender itself and not the gender stereotype.


    For full disclosure - I am a man. And I have personally witnessed gender pay gap in the like for like scenario.

    My daughter is well capable of pursuing a career in mathematics or physics at university level and kicked ass at it in secondary school. You know why she doesn't? She's more interested in the biological sciences, like most of her female peers. Her male peers are more interested in physics and IT in general and allergic to the biological sciences. This is repeated over and over up and down the country.

    She got every encouragement from her physical scientist dad and mechanical engineering mum to pursue whatever field interested her. So I'm sorry but your theory is wrong.


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    #168
    grogi
    Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    VinLieger wrote: »
    That's not a pay gap then, that's an earnings gap as there are no women doing the same job as a man for the same time and with the same experience that are also being paid less

    There is unadjusted pay gap and adjusted pay gap (which takes into account all the factors mentioned in this thread - experience, hours worked etc.).

    And surpise surprise - the scientists aren't a bunch of idiots who don't understand the domain. There is research to adjusted pay gap as well - that still states that women earn substantially less at same position (in 1990 it was around 30% less).

    A Meta-Analysis of the International Gender Wage Gap (10.1111/j.0950-0804.2005.00256.x) or recent research done by CMI: http://www.managers.org.uk/insights/gender-diversity-and-the-pay-gap. So please stop pulling facts out of the air that nobody compares like for like or that the gender pay gap does not exist. Because you are simply misinformed.

    I will not engage into further discussion until any concrete facts are brought to the table.


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    #169
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    VinLieger wrote: »
    Lovely, more absolutely massive generalisations, that happens but please stop with your sweeping statements that imply it is happening to every single woman and girl

    Generalisations are useful. Just because you can point out one or two counterexamples "my granny smoked 80 woodbines a day and lived to 100" does NOT mean smoking is good for your health.


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    #170
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    grogi wrote: »
    There is unadjusted pay gap and adjusted pay gap (which takes into account all the factors mentioned in this thread - experience, hours worked etc.).

    And surpise surprise - the scientists aren't a bunch of idiots who don't understand the domain. There is research to adjusted pay gap as well - that still states that women earn substantially less at same position (in 1990 it was around 30% less).

    A Meta-Analysis of the International Gender Wage Gap (10.1111/j.0950-0804.2005.00256.x) or recent research done by CMI: http://www.managers.org.uk/insights/gender-diversity-and-the-pay-gap. So please stop pulling facts out of the air that nobody compares like for like or that the gender pay gap does not exist. Because you are simply misinformed.

    I will not engage into further discussion until any concrete facts are brought to the table.

    I don't see anything in here comparing like with like in the "infographic". If the women managers are managing the local corner shop are being compared with Fortune 500 men then of course there is going to be a disparity.


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    #171
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    20170805_WOC360.png

    The lowest one is the ACTUAL gender pay gap. The rest are comparing apples and oranges.


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    #172
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    professore wrote: »
    Generalisations are useful. Just because you can point out one or two counterexamples "my granny smoked 80 woodbines a day and lived to 100" does NOT mean smoking is good for your health.

    Yes when discussing them with statistical facts to back them up, we know 100% smoking is bad for you, but there is no data available to claim 100% of female students are being told that boys are better than they are yet the poster i was replying to keeps making sweeping generalisations implying such things are happening


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    #173
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #174
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    You know why I actually care about this stuff? Not because I'm sexist, but because I believe in the truth. The truth doesn't care about your feelings.

    The same way I care about climate change deniers, anti vaxxers or fake news. It matters. It matters a lot if you are shaping society based on false information. What I see is a perpetual attempt to make women feel like they are the helpless victims of society, and that men don't have any of the same issues and are sex crazed brutes. It's absolutely crazy.


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    #175
    grogi
    Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    professore wrote: »
    20170805_WOC360.png

    The lowest one is the ACTUAL gender pay gap. The rest are comparing apples and oranges.

    The lowest one is adjusted gender gap. The one at top is unadjusted gender gap. And women still consistently earn less.


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    #176
    grogi
    Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    professore wrote: »
    You know why I actually care about this stuff? Not because I'm sexist, but because I believe in the truth. The truth doesn't care about your feelings.

    The same way I care about climate change deniers, anti vaxxers or fake news. It matters. It matters a lot if you are shaping society based on false information.

    Of course it matters. And I am glad you've brought climate change, anti-vaccine movement etc. All of those are not based on hard, scientific research.
    What I see is a perpetual attempt to make women feel like they are the helpless victims of society, and that men don't have any of the same issues and are sex crazed brutes. It's absolutely crazy.

    To some extend. Those who really really really want will still prevail.

    But we shouldn't also deny (like you and me don't deny climate change) that the stereotypes exist and they are influencing women and men. I am also not saying that women will be happier in the high paying professions. I don't know that.

    Stereotypes do originate somewhere, but we must be very careful not to let them cloud our judgement in individual cases. If the girl wants to become a researcher in biology - nothing wrong with that. But this decision should be made because she wants to do that, not because there is a stereotype that suggest she would be better at it.


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    #177
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #178
    grogi
    Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Yes. To some extend for sure. Systemic discrimination (on the scale of society) that is caused by stereotyping.

    In US it is especially visible when talking about different ethnic backgrounds, but gender discrimination has exactly same characteristics.


    I was looking for definition of System Discrimination, and found this: https://www.hrzone.com/hr-glossary/what-is-systemic-discrimination


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    #179
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #180
    grogi
    Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    And why they don't have those qualifications or attitude? Is it only genetic?!


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    #181
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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