Luas Cross City Launch Discussion

Curly Judge

The only solution now is to put the section of the LUAS south of Henry Street to south of College Green underground.
The only thing left to calculate (apart from the cost) is the length of slope required at either end to cater for the trams lack of traction?

Podge_irl

Curly Judge wrote: »

The only solution now is to put the section of the LUAS south of Henry Street to south of College Green underground.
The only thing left to calculate (apart from the cost) is the length of slope required at either end to cater for the trams lack of traction?

One would imagine traffic enforcement to stop taxis and private vehicles stopping in yellow boxes would be cheaper.

no.8

Podge_irl wrote: »

One would imagine traffic enforcement to stop taxis and private vehicles stopping in yellow boxes would be cheaper.

Yours might just be the cheaper...and more logical of the 2 proposals .

HonalD

Curly Judge wrote: »

The only solution now is to put the section of the LUAS south of Henry Street to south of College Green underground.
The only thing left to calculate (apart from the cost) is the length of slope required at either end to cater for the trams lack of traction?

Eh, you do realize there’s a river in between which you’d need to get under?

Tow

serfboard wrote: »

Sorry can't have that. Arnotts car park dictates that we must have private cars on Bachelors Walk.

We could have done away what that problem when Arnotts was nationalised by NAMA, but now we have sold it on again.

cgcsb

serfboard wrote: »

Sorry can't have that. Arnotts car park dictates that we must have private cars on Bachelors Walk.

Just reverse traffic flow on middle abbey st, liffey st and great strand st and let cars go in the abbey st way.

cgcsb

Curly Judge wrote: »

The only solution now is to put the section of the LUAS south of Henry Street to south of College Green underground.
The only thing left to calculate (apart from the cost) is the length of slope required at either end to cater for the trams lack of traction?

Is that you King Soloman? cut any babies in half lately?

On a serious note there are far less extreme interventions to be made.

Pete_Cavan

cgcsb wrote: »

Just reverse traffic flow on middle abbey st, liffey st and great strand st and let cars go in the abbey st way.

This is the obvious solution. Don't even need to bring GSS into it, just make private cars turn off the Quays onto Liffey Street and go round by Abbey Street. Bachelors Walk then can be public transport only while retaining access to car parks.

boombang

Tried to take the Luas from the IFSC to Heuston yesterday. Had to get off after two stops and jump in a taxi to catch my train. The luas is too slow for that journey for the small premium for the taxi not be great value for money.

I think the current mess is an absolute indictment of the planning around such a huge capital investment. I work in simulation modelling. I'm sure a good transport modeller could have predicted this a long time ago before hundreds of millions were spent.

trellheim

We had noted on this board several years ago exactly this type of congestion would be caused

Pete_Cavan

trellheim wrote: »

We had noted on this board several years ago exactly this type of congestion would be caused

The congestion was always there, its now the running of red lights, blocking of yellow boxes, illegal parking, etc. which was accepted as normal in the city centre is now being shown up for the disaster that it is. There are many things that could be done to allow Luas (and buses) run more efficiently but these are opposed by various lobby groups. The Luas hasn't created a new problem, it has just highlighted one that has always existed.

Curly Judge

HonalD wrote: »

Eh, you do realize there’s a river in between which you’d need to get under?

I seem to have heard somewhere that rivers in Paris and London are tunneled under with abandon.
Is there something special about the Liffey?

markpb

Curly Judge wrote: »

I seem to have heard somewhere that rivers in Paris and London are tunneled under with abandon. Is there something special about the Liffey?

I'm fairly sure neither of those cities have train lines that go under those rivers from only 200 meters away. That would be more rollercoaster than metro!

thomasj

We have an experience tonight where a taxi driver has hit the back of a 37 bus on Dawson Street and gardai have been called.

Time being its partially blocking the luas line and a northbound lias have been held up for 5 minutes along with other buses cars etc.

fritzelly

thomasj wrote: »

We have an experience tonight where a taxi driver has hit the back of a 37 bus on Dawson Street and gardai have been called.

Time being its partially blocking the luas line and a northbound lias have been held up for 5 minutes along with other buses cars etc.

How did he miss the big bus in front of him?

BowWow

fritzelly wrote: »

How did he miss the big bus in front of him?

It would appear he didn't...:D

Curly Judge

markpb wrote: »

I'm fairly sure neither of those cities have train lines that go under those rivers from only 200 meters away. That would be more rollercoaster than metro!

You can sink the stations at each end, stick in lifts, elevators, staircases, two shuttle trains and whisk thousands of travelers from the Northside to the South and vice versa.
Voilà, you have an embryonic Dublin Metro

devnull

Curly Judge wrote: »

You can sink the stations at each end, stick in lifts, elevators, staircases, two shuttle trains and whisk thousands of travelers from the Northside to the South and vice versa.
Voilà, you have an embryonic Dublin Metro

And how much disruption is that going to cause and how much money is it going to cost that could be far better spent on other things in the state right now?

You'd have to close that whole corridor off for months and years to all traffic to carry out such work which will cause 1000x more disruption than there is at the moment.

Where is all the traffic going to go whilst this work is done?

Curly Judge

devnull wrote: »

And how much disruption is that going to cause and how much money is it going to cost that could be far better spent on other things in the state right now?

You'd have to close that whole corridor off for months and years to all traffic to carry out such work which will cause 1000x more disruption than there is at the moment.

Where is all the traffic going to go whilst this work is done?

So.... what you're saying really is that a Metro can never be built in Dublin because it would be too disruptive?
Let me give you a small clue as to how engineers might circumvent that problem: it's called tunneling.

MJohnston

Curly Judge wrote: »

So.... what you're saying really is that a Metro can never be built in Dublin because it would be too disruptive?
Let me give you a small clue as to how engineers might circumvent that problem: it's called tunneling.

I'm reluctant to reply to what appears to be trolling, but you don't tunnel for the sake of 2 nearby stations, that is it madness.

The Luas, in order to be tunneled in a way that would both not destroy half of the city, and would not be ridiculously cost prohibitive, would have need to have gone underground somewhere around Grangegorman and not resurfaced until somewhere south of Charlemont.

In case you haven't noticed, that's basically what the Metro will do, albeit in a different alignment on the Northside. The Luas is perfectly fine as an onstreet, above ground partner to that, once the city centre is taken seriously as a public transport only area.

These ideas of tunneling for a few hundred metres, or raising the tracks on stilts for a few hundred metres, all to preserve the ability of a few selfish car drivers to drive into the city, is insane to me.

donvito99

MJohnston wrote: »

These ideas of tunneling for a few hundred metres, or raising the tracks on stilts for a few hundred metres, all to preserve the ability of a few selfish car drivers to drive into the city, is insane to me.

This is the issue.

If we put the cart before the horse by restricting the access to parts of the CC of private cars we won't see chaos, we'll see a lot of people asking themselves whether we need the horse at all.

Curly Judge

donvito99 wrote: »

This is the issue.

If we put the cart before the horse by restricting the access to parts of the CC of private cars we won't see chaos, we'll see a lot of people asking themselves whether we need the horse at all.

The real issue is, do we continue to allow people who want to keep their cars rather than subject themselves to the whims of public transport union workers, the right to do so?
Banning taxies out of a city like Dublin is crazy.
How are international business travelers, who need to get from their hotels to business meetings, to otherwise do so?

Technocentral

Curly Judge wrote:

Banning taxies out of a city like Dublin is crazy. How are international business travelers, who need to get from their hotels to business meetings, to otherwise do so?

They can use Trams and busses like in other countries.

devnull

Curly Judge wrote: »

Banning taxies out of a city like Dublin is crazy.

How are international business travelers, who need to get from their hotels to business meetings, to otherwise do so?

I do not want to ban taxis totally.

I simply want to stop them from using certain roads and make those roads dedicated to public transport because public transport is a more efficient use of road space and will help lower the chronic congestion problems we experience day in day out on our narrow streets.

MJohnston

Curly Judge wrote: »

The real issue is, do we continue to allow people who want to keep their cars rather than subject themselves to the whims of public transport union workers, the right to do so?
Banning taxies out of a city like Dublin is crazy.
How are international business travelers, who need to get from their hotels to business meetings, to otherwise do so?

Nobody is talking about banning taxis from the entire city centre, just private cars.

I think taxis should be banned from College Green however. And once private cars are removed from the Quays around O'Connell Bridge, taxis should be not allowed in bus lanes either

Stephen15

devnull wrote: »

I do not want to ban taxis totally.

I simply want to stop them from using certain roads and make those roads dedicated to public transport because public transport is a more efficient use of road space and will help lower the chronic congestion problems we experience day in day out on our narrow streets.

Another thing that hasn't been mentioned is the hail and stop nature of taxis in Ireland meaning taxis regularly block bus stops and public transport by setting down to drop and pickup passengers. In other countries taxis are only allowed pickup passengers from a rank unless they've booked and agreed on a suitable pickup point. Taxis should only be allowed drop passengers off where it is safe and not blocking up traffic.

This whole pickup passengers wherever you like is ridiculous and is compounded by certain taxi drivers who believe that they do not have to use indicators and pull out whenever they like. It delays the flow of public transport and more importantly is dangerous.

howiya

MJohnston wrote: »

Nobody is talking about banning taxis from the entire city centre, just private cars.

I think taxis should be banned from College Green however. And once private cars are removed from the Quays around O'Connell Bridge, taxis should be not allowed in bus lanes either

Define the city centre for the purpose of your proposed ban on cars please.

Is it a 24/7 ban?

MJohnston

howiya wrote: »

Define the city centre for the purpose of your proposed ban on cars please.

Is it a 24/7 ban?

I've defined it numerous times already on various threads, possibly even this one, but for me a good vague outline of a restricted area would be the Inner Orbital Route:

http://www.dublincity.ie/sites/default/files/content/RoadsandTraffic/Documents/orbital_map.pdf

Realistically though that's never going to happen while DCC are under the thumbs of car parks. So my more pragmatic option would be to force cars to turn off the North Quays at Jervis Street (with Stand Street, Liffey Street, and Middle Abbey reversed for access to Arnott's), and off the south Quays at Tara Street (North over the bridge).

This is what was originally planned, and would leave the Quays free of cars from Jervis Street through to Custom House on the northside, and from Tara Street through to essentially Winetavern Street on the southside. Parliament Street would be made two way for public transport only also.

It would be a 24/7 ban for cars, and within the same area, taxis would be banned from bus lanes and College Green between 7am and 7pm. I'd also like to block delivery vehicles during that time period but I've no idea what alternatives exist for them.

howiya

MJohnston wrote: »

I've defined it numerous times already on various threads, possibly even this one, but for me a good vague outline of a restricted area would be the Inner Orbital Route:

http://www.dublincity.ie/sites/default/files/content/RoadsandTraffic/Documents/orbital_map.pdf

Realistically though that's never going to happen while DCC are under the thumbs of car parks. So my more pragmatic option would be to force cars to turn off the North Quays at Jervis Street (with Stand Street, Liffey Street, and Middle Abbey reversed for access to Arnott's), and off the south Quays at Tara Street (North over the bridge).

This is what was originally planned, and would leave the Quays free of cars from Jervis Street through to Custom House on the northside, and from Tara Street through to essentially Winetavern Street on the southside. Parliament Street would be made two way for public transport only also.

It would be a 24/7 ban for cars, and within the same area, taxis would be banned from bus lanes and College Green between 7am and 7pm. I'd also like to block delivery vehicles during that time period but I've no idea what alternatives exist for them.

Doesn't affect my route to work at least.

I'd object to the 24/7 element of it though. Shows no regard for those who want to come into the city outside of core public transport hours when there is very little alternative to the car. There are times when it makes sense to use public transport and there are times when it doesn't.

Stephen15

howiya wrote: »

Doesn't affect my route to work at least.

I'd object to the 24/7 element of it though. Shows no regard for those who want to come into the city outside of core public transport hours when there is very little alternative to the car. There are times when it makes sense to use public transport and there are times when it doesn't.

Between 23:30 and 06:00 the reason people go into the cc is to drink these people would go home by taxi or nitelink as they have been drinking and naturally they can't drive home. When 24h buses come in there won't even be the excuse of bar staff and bouncers.

That's like saying cars should be allowed drive up Grafton Street or Henry Street outside core shopping hours.