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How did Stephen Cluxton "revolutionise the game"?

  • 03-11-2017 11:52pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,571 Martha Wide Musketeer


    The title isn't meant to be inflammatory, genuinely curious. It's just a line that is constantly touted and I can never really tell why, it seems to just be generally accepted by the masses/RTE.

    As someone who was born in the 90s, and can only remember watching football from roughly 2006 onwards, I don't know much about "pre-Cluxton" football so can't really tell if he's revolutionised the game, or what he has done to do so.

    The usual reasoning is his short kick outs.. were these not used before Cluxton came along? What are so speacial about his kickouts in particular? Is it just his accuracy, his speed of getting them out? A bit of both?

    I feel like him being a goalkeeper it's much more difficult to see the impact he's had on the game - with someone like, say, Bernard Brogan or Colm Cooper, it's much easier to see their impact as it is much more obvious - they scores points, goals, makes assists. A kickout is a kickout to a lay person like me as long as it reaches it's target. Could anyone enlighten me?


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 13,110 ✭✭✭✭ callaway92
    Registered User


    They like to portray him as some sort of a Manuel Neuer for GAA


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,098 ✭✭✭✭ Ash.J.Williams
    Registered User


    The title isn't meant to be inflammatory, genuinely curious. It's just a line that is constantly touted and I can never really tell why, it seems to just be generally accepted by the masses/RTE.

    As someone who was born in the 90s, and can only remember watching football from roughly 2006 onwards, I don't know much about "pre-Cluxton" football so can't really tell if he's revolutionised the game, or what he has done to do so.

    The usual reasoning is his short kick outs.. were these not used before Cluxton came along? What are so speacial about his kickouts in particular? Is it just his accuracy, his speed of getting them out? A bit of both?

    I feel like him being a goalkeeper it's much more difficult to see the impact he's had on the game - with someone like, say, Bernard Brogan or Colm Cooper, it's much easier to see their impact as it is much more obvious - they scores points, goals, makes assists. A kickout is a kickout to a lay person like me as long as it reaches it's target. Could anyone enlighten me?
    is he the biggest scoring keeper of all time?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,571 Martha Wide Musketeer


    The title isn't meant to be inflammatory, genuinely curious. It's just a line that is constantly touted and I can never really tell why, it seems to just be generally accepted by the masses/RTE.

    As someone who was born in the 90s, and can only remember watching football from roughly 2006 onwards, I don't know much about "pre-Cluxton" football so can't really tell if he's revolutionised the game, or what he has done to do so.

    The usual reasoning is his short kick outs.. were these not used before Cluxton came along? What are so speacial about his kickouts in particular? Is it just his accuracy, his speed of getting them out? A bit of both?

    I feel like him being a goalkeeper it's much more difficult to see the impact he's had on the game - with someone like, say, Bernard Brogan or Colm Cooper, it's much easier to see their impact as it is much more obvious - they scores points, goals, makes assists. A kickout is a kickout to a lay person like me as long as it reaches it's target. Could anyone enlighten me?
    is he the biggest scoring keeper of all time?

    To say that "revolutionised the game" is a massive stretch though.. a goalkeeper who is great at long range free kicks is obviously a great asset, but that doesn't really relate to his goalkeeping skills, does it?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭ LeinsterDub
    Registered User


    Free taking goal keeper and the short kick outs. The recently introduced rule was called by some the Cluxton Rule. It can't recall anyone who this happened too.


    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.balls.ie/amp/gaa/jarlath-burns-cluxton-rule-374766


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,842 Mod ✭✭✭✭ AndyBoBandy
    Moderator


    Free taking goal keeper and the short kick outs. The recently introduced rule was called by some the Cluxton Rule. It can't recall anyone who this happened too.


    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.balls.ie/amp/gaa/jarlath-burns-cluxton-rule-374766

    Same as the Nash rule, player discovers a way to maximise his teams advantage, uses it, and forces a rule change


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,687 ✭✭✭ corny
    Registered User


    Colm O'Rourke never shuts up about this and it always irritates me that no one ever challenges his opinion.

    Cluxton has always been a brilliant passer of a football but the growing importance of possession and gaining possession from the kick out was happening with or without him.

    So yeah master of the art but keepers going short and not hoofing it aimlessly would be the norm now even if Cluxton never played the game.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,571 Martha Wide Musketeer


    Free taking goal keeper and the short kick outs. The recently introduced rule was called by some the Cluxton Rule. It can't recall anyone who this happened too.


    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.balls.ie/amp/gaa/jarlath-burns-cluxton-rule-374766

    Anthony Nash for one, although obviously he's not a footballer.

    Noticed the famous phrase was used (apologetically) in the article, looks like I'm not just imagining it's popularity!


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭ LeinsterDub
    Registered User


    Same as the Nash rule, player discovers a way to maximise his teams advantage, uses it, and forces a rule change

    Fair enough. But the Nash rule prevented an occurance that might happen once in a game and isn't a core strategy of the game unlike the kick out and winning the breaking ball is in football.

    When I was growing up your goalkeeper was just a shot stopper. Now your goalkeeper is one of the most important players on the pitch


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,301 ✭✭✭ StupidLikeAFox
    Registered User


    Previously kickouts generally consisted of smacking the ball in the general direction of your best fielder, or occassionally a short one to a free man.

    Cluxton is very accurate from the kick out whether short, medium or long. The Dublin team also placed a focus on positioning and movement when it came to kickouts which gave them a huge advantage. Basically kickouts went from being a routine way of restarting the game to becoming a key part of a teams game plan, and Cluxton rightly or wrongly got most of the credit for that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,665 ✭✭✭ Bonniedog
    Registered User


    The game has changed hugely since 2000. Armagh upped the physical element; Tyrone introduced a much tighter defensive system; Donegal arguably perfected it, almost; and Dublin again increased the intensity levels allied to a strategy in which Cluxton was key. It will change again with another team no doubt.

    I had forgotten about the "Nash Rule." I don't like rules being changed because one or other team has established an advantage. Other teams can adapt if good enough rather than lower the bar in the committee room.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,188 ✭✭✭✭ Faugheen
    Registered User


    If Cluxton played for Kerry or Mayo, he'd be seen as the best and most rounded goalkeeper to play football.

    I've said it before, we as fans don't deserve players like him if we can't appreciate just how good he is because of the jersey he wears.

    People will come back saying it's nothing to do with Dublin, but I genuinely can't see how a legitimate argument can be put forward to discredit him.

    He didn't 'revolutionise' the game but he has revolutionised the role of the goalkeeper. Someone said earlier kick outs used to be aimed in the direction of the teams best fielder. Cluxton as now made ball-retention a huge priority. It's not just short kick outs either. His ability to find his man no matter the range is exceptional.

    He's also an excellent shot-stopper. I don't think people give him enough credit for this. A true, top class keeper are the ones who can pull off a crucial save late in the game when he was barely tested beforehand. Does Cluxton make the odd mistake? Yes, but find me a goalkeeper who doesn't.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,028 ✭✭✭ Gael85
    Registered User


    is he the biggest scoring keeper of all time?

    0-66 for Dublin. 0-48 (Championship) 0-18 (League)


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,776 ✭✭✭ castletownman
    Registered User


    The thing is though, he has indirectly caused managers at club level put misplaced utmost importance in the kick-out, without realising that ultimately maximising your skill-set up front, and maintaining a disciplined defence are both far more important.

    People think that it's ONLY Cluxton's kick-outs that have brought success to Dublin, when their defensive unit more less shut out most opponents, and their conversion rate is the best in the game. Yes he is the best in the business at restarts, but the players in front of him are equally important to the system. Put him in a Division Four team and see how revolutionary he is.

    If anything, Durcan's restarts were equally as groundbreaking for Donegal. Their system was predicated by him picking out the loose man on the short, or pinging towards Neily Gallagher to either catch clean or flick onto the fellas pushing forward into space, and he mastered it (apart from THAT boo boo in the 2014 final).

    Incidentally, I feel Cluxton's presence under a dropping ball has waned considerably over the years. Got caught a couple times vs Kerry last year, and in the Leinster final this year. They are two examples I can remember off the top of my head.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,167 ✭✭✭ doc_17
    Registered User


    Cluxton’s ability to kick accurately, short or long, is a joy to behold. But having managers who then used this asset has seriously improved Dublin. I think he was probably hard done by last night at the All Stars, but in saying that I have no issue with Clarke getting it either as I only saw the Dublin SF and final but I saw most of Mayo’s games.


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,799 ✭✭✭✭ Dyr
    Registered User


    Just go back and watch games from the 80s and 90s. Job done


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,428 Powerhouse



    When I was growing up your goalkeeper was just a shot stopper. Now your goalkeeper is one of the most important players on the pitch



    And stopping shots wasn't important when you were growing up?


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,188 ✭✭✭✭ Faugheen
    Registered User


    Powerhouse wrote: »
    And stopping shots wasn't important when you were growing up?

    You know exactly what he's trying to say so that post is one of the worst.

    Don't be that guy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,428 Powerhouse


    The title isn't meant to be inflammatory, genuinely curious. It's just a line that is constantly touted and I can never really tell why, it seems to just be generally accepted by the masses/RTE.

    As someone who was born in the 90s, and can only remember watching football from roughly 2006 onwards, I don't know much about "pre-Cluxton" football so can't really tell if he's revolutionised the game, or what he has done to do so.

    The usual reasoning is his short kick outs.. were these not used before Cluxton came along? What are so speacial about his kickouts in particular? Is it just his accuracy, his speed of getting them out? A bit of both?

    I feel like him being a goalkeeper it's much more difficult to see the impact he's had on the game - with someone like, say, Bernard Brogan or Colm Cooper, it's much easier to see their impact as it is much more obvious - they scores points, goals, makes assists. A kickout is a kickout to a lay person like me as long as it reaches it's target. Could anyone enlighten me?


    In the old days a kickout was seen as a means of restarting play rather than an opportunity for a team to retain possession. In theory the kickout was a lottery though most teams had very good fielders/primary ball-winners who were celebrated for this feat. Oddly enough this aspect hasn't changed in that, for example, Brian Fenton looks like an old-fashioned midfielder - they were very often the tallest men on the team. The corollary of the 'revolutionisation' of the game with the short kickout is that midfielders should probably become smaller more compact and mobile players but this hasn't happened yet.

    Short kickouts were very very rare in the old days not least because every full-forward line played in its position and without realising it they were - in modern parlance - automatically 'pushing up' so that a short kickout was not an option and the potential target of the short kickout was expected to be marking a player at the time anyway The sweeper/extra defender in the modern game has facilitated the really short kickout as there is a player not on marking duties available as a recipient.

    As for your questions: "what is it about his kickouts in particular? Is it just his accuracy, his speed of getting them out? A bit of both?" I would say it is indeed both, but let's be honest this was probably conjured up by some Dublin coach we'll never hear about and is rehearsed with mind-numbing repetition. Cluxton's speed and accuracy is helped by the fact that all the moving parts in the kickout strategy do their jobs. It is often interesting to see how frustrated Cluxton gets when kickouts go awry. The reason for this, presumably, is that it means that somebody somewhere isn't doing their job, as practised, at the time.

    I think the way Cluxton is considered to have revolutionised the game is that most teams tend to use the short kickout now. What he made popular has caught on. That's the revolution.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,428 Powerhouse


    Faugheen wrote: »
    You know exactly what he's trying to say so that post is one of the worst.

    Don't be that guy.


    No need for the faux offence. The point is that the goalkeeper was always one of the most important players on the pitch. That has no changed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 536 Condenser
    Registered User


    Bonniedog wrote: »
    The game has changed hugely since 2000. Armagh upped the physical element; Tyrone introduced a much tighter defensive system; Donegal arguably perfected it, almost; and Dublin again increased the intensity levels allied to a strategy in which Cluxton was key. It will change again with another team no doubt.

    I had forgotten about the "Nash Rule." I don't like rules being changed because one or other team has established an advantage. Other teams can adapt if good enough rather than lower the bar in the committee room.

    The Nash rule wasn't brought in to take away an advantage cork had. It was brought in on a safety issue. Nash was ending up no more than 10m from the defender after his lift and then striking the ball at anything up to 150km an hour. Taking a ball at that distance and speed had the potential for serious injury and allowed a player no time to react. The ball would have hit you as soon as you heard it leave Nashs bos.
    It was the correct call.


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 4,115 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bruschi
    Moderator


    As much as I highly rate Cluxton (and I do, the best of his generation), his influence and kickouts in particular are hugely over rated. It was far more than just him, and this has been proven time and again. You look at when teams do their best against Dublin, its when they put pressure on Cluxton to kick it long to a contested area. When this happens, his accuracy and decision making has been shown to be very average.

    Where he excels is on quick decisions with short to mid range kicks. Dublin have a great tactic that involves up to 8 players at one time to free up one player into space for Cluxton to hit into. The accuracy for this does not need to be excellent, but the decision making does. He has to be sure the pass is on and get it right. More often than not, he does. however my own opinion is that the work and synchronisation of the other players under the countless hours of practice is far more worthy of praise.

    So if you were going to say Cluxton revolutionised the game, I'd disagree and say Dublin did. Thats if you really want to go down a route of these short kick outs that were largely in existence in the early noughties with Northern teams and their blanket before it became en vogue for Dublin to get the credit for it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,174 ✭✭✭✭ Drumpot
    Registered User


    Some amount of Sucking lemons Here.... this reminds me if the Monty pythons skit “yeh but what have the romans ever done for us?” Skit...

    I believe most people appreciate what he has achieved and brought to the game.. I suppose some people can’t get past their own prejudice to objectively appraise his true impact..

    Is at least an all round solid keeper, extremely reliable in big games.. Has the record of most championship games. Scored a winning all Ireland final point in the last kick of the game (Mayo wouldn’t mind any player who could do that let alone a keeper!). Captains his county to multiple all Irelands. Changes the way a keepers role is perceived and how teams tactically use that advantage... sure every year there is huge debate on how a team will deal with Cluxton’s kick outs, why is this discussed if it’s such a non important quality of cluxton?

    Yeh but never mind, he’s nothing special !!!!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭ LeinsterDub
    Registered User


    Powerhouse wrote: »
    And stopping shots wasn't important when you were growing up?

    Obliviously it was but now keepers stop shots and do so much more. But I have a feeling you know what I meant and are just being argumentative.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,881 ✭✭✭ flasher0030
    Registered User


    Drumpot wrote: »
    Some amount of Sucking lemons Here.... this reminds me if the Monty pythons skit “yeh but what have the romans ever done for us?” Skit...

    I believe most people appreciate what he has achieved and brought to the game.. I suppose some people can’t get past their own prejudice to objectively appraise his true impact..

    Is at least an all round solid keeper, extremely reliable in big games.. Has the record of most championship games. Scored a winning all Ireland final point in the last kick of the game (Mayo wouldn’t mind any player who could do that let alone a keeper!). Captains his county to multiple all Irelands. Changes the way a keepers role is perceived and how teams tactically use that advantage... sure every year there is huge debate on how a team will deal with Clinton’s kick outs, why is this discussed if it’s such a non important quality of cluxton?

    Yeh but never mind, he’s nothing special !!!!!

    Get Monica Lewinsky run around starkers to distract him.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,277 danganabu


    Bonniedog wrote: »

    I had forgotten about the "Nash Rule." I don't like rules being changed because one or other team has established an advantage. Other teams can adapt if good enough rather than lower the bar in the committee room.

    Ah yeah but calling it the Nash Rule was just lazy analysis, the fact is, as has been pointed out here the games have changed and in hurling the main change is the weight of and the speed at which a sliotar can travel, it would have been folly and indeed wreckless not to change the rule as they did, it really was a no-brainer.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,277 danganabu


    Drumpot wrote: »
    Some amount of Sucking lemons Here.... this reminds me if the Monty pythons skit “yeh but what have the romans ever done for us?” Skit...

    I believe most people appreciate what he has achieved and brought to the game.. I suppose some people can’t get past their own prejudice to objectively appraise his true impact..

    Is at least an all round solid keeper, extremely reliable in big games.. Has the record of most championship games. Scored a winning all Ireland final point in the last kick of the game (Mayo wouldn’t mind any player who could do that let alone a keeper!). Captains his county to multiple all Irelands. Changes the way a keepers role is perceived and how teams tactically use that advantage... sure every year there is huge debate on how a team will deal with Cluxton’s kick outs, why is this discussed if it’s such a non important quality of cluxton?

    Yeh but never mind, he’s nothing special !!!!!

    There have been as many posts here praising his influence as there have been questioning it, why always playing the victim??

    Oh and the sly dig at Mayo is both childish and reprehensible :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,034 ✭✭✭✭ blanch152
    Registered User


    The thread title says it all.

    We are not having a debate about how David Clarke or Brian Kelly revolutionised the game. Why? Because they didn't.

    Cluxton is a once-in-a-lifetime player, captaining his team to three All-Irelands in a row, four in all. A goalkeeper scoring the winning point in the All-Ireland victory he didn't captain the team. Wow, just wow.

    He doesn't kick the ball over the sideline in the last minute of the All-Ireland final like Clarke did and cost his team a chance to equalise, he doesn't miss the free in injury time to win the All-Ireland like Cillian O'Connor did, he has demonstrated the ability to close out those situations.

    Sure, he has had occasional meltdowns or cracks in his technique, but when do they ever make the difference between winning and losing - hardly ever. Much was made of Mayo's success in the first half of the All-Ireland final this year on his kick-outs, but I can't remember the last time they handed out medals at half-time. By the end of the game, Cluxton's kick-out success rate was far superior to Clarke's and he nailed the ones that mattered. The same is seen on the other occasions.

    Why do we now have a new rule that kick-outs have to cross the 20m line? Stephen Cluxton.

    Why did we have a new rule that kick-outs must travel a certain distance? Stephen Cluxton.

    Why did we have the introduction of the mark? Stephen Cluxton.

    And despite those rule changes to curtail his influence, Dublin are still favourites to win next year.

    Cluxton deserves to be considered in a debate not just about the greatest goalkeeper to play the game, but also about the greatest footballer to play the game. And he is not done yet.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,665 ✭✭✭ Bonniedog
    Registered User


    danganabu wrote: »
    Ah yeah but calling it the Nash Rule was just lazy analysis, the fact is, as has been pointed out here the games have changed and in hurling the main change is the weight of and the speed at which a sliotar can travel, it would have been folly and indeed wreckless not to change the rule as they did, it really was a no-brainer.


    I don't know. A penalty should be a guaranteed score in any sport. Nash did change the system to extent that hurling penalty is now one against one, albeit from further out. Surprising the amount that are missed. Dublin excel at it :o


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,277 danganabu


    Bonniedog wrote: »
    I don't know. A penalty should be a guaranteed score in any sport. Nash did change the system to extent that hurling penalty is now one against one, albeit from further out. Surprising the amount that are missed. Dublin excel at it :o

    Tipp aren't much better at them to be honest!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,665 ✭✭✭ Bonniedog
    Registered User


    danganabu wrote: »
    Tipp aren't much better at them to be honest!


    Bring back Eoin Kelly... or Mick Roche!


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