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500 years ago today

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    #62
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    1j5nwieg4zs039 wrote: »
    If you are outside the Catholic Church when the final trumpet blows, through your own fault, you will be excluded from the Kingdom.
    How are all these heretical popes supposedly in Hell then?
    ... or are they in Hell because they are not Catholics?:D


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    #63
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    J C wrote:
    How are all these heretical popes supposedly in Hell then? ... or are they not Catholics?


    JC, If a Pope works against God's kingdom, he cannot be admitted to the banquet of the Lord. Where else has he to go?


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    #64
    EirWatchr
    Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭EirWatchr


    1j5nwieg4zs039 wrote: »
    You are correct, Nick Park. However, heretical popes work for satan and divide the flock. Hell will be hot enough for them.

    You use the phrase heretical pope as if it were not a hypothetical. Have you some historical knowledge of popes that I don't? (i.e. Which popes have been convicted of heresy?)


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    #65
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    Eirwatchr, I am using the term to describe a Pope, or any other individual, who acts contrary to the wishes of Jesus Christ. Such a person is working against the unity of God's kingdom, and ultimately finds his way to the deepest pit of hell.


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    #66
    EirWatchr
    Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭EirWatchr


    1j5nwieg4zs039 wrote: »
    Eirwatchr, I am using the term to describe a Pope, or any other individual, who acts contrary to the wishes of Jesus Christ. Such a person is working against the unity of God's kingdom, and ultimately finds his way to the deepest pit of hell.

    Ok. I'd be a little bit more cautious about throwing about the phrase heretic so - it means corrupting or rejecting the dogmas of faith in Jesus. Acting contrary to the *wishes* of Jesus is a different thing altogether. Jesus doesn't wish sin, but we do all sin (even Pope Francis calls himself a sinner). Heretic is a far more serious accusation.


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    #67
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    EirWatchr wrote: »
    You are misinformed. The authority of infallibility, as bestowed by Christ to his apostles, is, first and foremost, exercised by the magisterium of the Church (i.e. the college of bishops, the apostles successors). It is the college of bishops that has supreme and full teaching authority of the Church, but that power can not be exercised without agreement of the Pope. Sole Papal doctrinal infallibility is rarely exercised.

    On the two occasions papal infallibility has been exercised, which of them by "heretics"? (Then you can answer your question).
    ... so are you saying that Papal infallibility was only exercised two times ... in 2,000 years??!!!
    Sounds like it is as rare as 'hens teeth'!!!
    ... and the 'collegial model' of dogma determination (that you refer to above) is model that is shared with nearly all churches, including the reformed churches.


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    #68
    EirWatchr
    Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭EirWatchr


    J C wrote: »
    ... so are you saying that Papal infallibility was only exercised two times ... in 2,000 years??!!!
    Sounds like it is as rare as 'hens teeth'!!!

    It is. Papal infallibility is often something cited, but frequently misunderstood - even by many Catholics. The Pope's activities are mostly pastoral ("Feed my lambs") - or as Pope Francis called himself "the servant of the servants of God"
    J C wrote: »
    ... and the 'collegial model' of dogma determination (that you refer to above) is shared with most reformed churches.

    I know. Ever wonder where they got that model from ;) ... and of the varying dogmas they have all arrived at, which one is the correct "reformed" dogma of Christ's teaching?


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    #69
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    EirWatchr wrote: »
    It is. Papal infallibility is often something cited, but frequently misunderstood - even by many Catholics. The Pope's activities are mostly pastoral ("Feed my lambs") - or as Pope Francis called himself "the servant of the servants of God"
    ... so for all practical purposes ... Papal infallibility doesn't exist.
    ... but papal authority most definitely does exist in the hierarchy of the RCC and it is absolute and monarchical ... so the fake 'humility' of being the 'servant of the servants' when the pope is an absolute authority instead, is simply untrue.
    EirWatchr wrote: »
    I know. Ever wonder where they got that model from ;) ... and of the varying dogmas they have all arrived at, which one is the correct "reformed" dogma of Christ's teaching?
    They got the model from the same place that the Roman Catholic Church got it ... Jesus Christ.
    ... and the varying dogmas illustrates the Human fallibility ... of them all.


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    #70
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    EirWatchr wrote:
    Ok. I'd be a little bit more cautious about throwing about the phrase heretic so - it means corrupting or rejecting the dogmas of faith in Jesus. Acting contrary to the *wishes* of Jesus is a different thing altogether. Jesus doesn't wish sin, but we do all sin (even Pope Francis calls himself a sinner). Heretic is a far more serious accusation.


    Eirwatchr, acting contrary to the wishes of Christ is the same as being heretical. Your aim is to sow discord and error, and so facilitate the great deceiver, satan.


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    #71
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    If you want to know the Truth, watch EWTN, on 589


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    #72
    EirWatchr
    Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭EirWatchr


    1j5nwieg4zs039 wrote: »
    Your aim is to sow discord and error

    Quite the contrary. However, if I'm facilitating satan, I'd better stop so!


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    #73
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    1j5nwieg4zs039 wrote: »
    How many times do you have to be told? The Catholic church is the one true Church founded by Christ for the salvation of the world.


    How many times have you been told it isn't?

    Surely you understand that simply being told something by someone isn't a reason to believe it. "Earth is flat" anyone? Why ought repetitious restating of the bald assertion change anything. Witness:

    The earth is flat
    The earth is flat
    The earth is flat...

    How many times need you be told?



    Who is doing the telling? What case do they make to support their position? If what they say isn't absolutely convincing in itself, what other evidence can be gleaned?

    The case against the Roman Catholic church being the one true church is more convincing that the case for, for many people. All you can do is try make a better case than has already been made by others.

    Good luck with that perhaps. But it's all you can do.


    (Or maybe you're just Hinault)


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    #74
    EirWatchr
    Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭EirWatchr


    J C wrote: »
    so the fake 'humility' of being the 'servant of the servants' when the pope is an absolute authority instead, is simply untrue


    Incorrect. There is only one "absolute" authority - God. Human authority is bestowed by Him.

    "Jesus answered, 'You would have no authority over Me unless it were given to you from above.'" Jn 19:11
    "There is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been instituted by God" Rom 13:1

    Is it not possible to use a position of authority to serve?

    "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve" Mk 10:45


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    #75
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    EirWatchr wrote:
    Quite the contrary. However, if I'm facilitating satan, I'd better stop so!


    Eirwatchr, I didn't mean you personally.


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    #76
    solodeogloria
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,739 ✭✭✭solodeogloria


    Good evening!
    1j5nwieg4zs039 wrote: »
    How many times do you have to be told? The Catholic church is the one true Church founded by Christ for the salvation of the world.
    1j5nwieg4zs039 wrote: »
    If you are outside the Catholic Church when the final trumpet blows, through your own fault, you will be excluded from the Kingdom.

    The problem is that I need a better reason to believe that other than that you said so. The Bible teaches that salvation comes through faith in Christ.
    EirWatchr wrote: »
    Incorrect. There is only one "absolute" authority - God. Human authority is bestowed by Him.

    "Jesus answered, 'You would have no authority over Me unless it were given to you from above.'" Jn 19:11
    "There is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been instituted by God" Rom 13:1

    Is it not possible to use a position of authority to serve?

    "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve" Mk 10:45

    Indeed - the only authority is God. That's precisely why the Reformation happened to address abuses of power that went against God's authority as declared in Scripture.

    That's why we should be looking at what God says first and foremost in the Bible and most supremely through His Son.

    Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
    solodeogloria


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    #77
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    1j5nwieg4zs039 wrote: »
    If you are outside the Catholic Church when the final trumpet blows, through your own fault, you will be excluded from the Kingdom.

    What biblical reference can you give us for this claim.


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    #78
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    Khalil Polite Flag wrote:
    What biblical reference can you give us for this claim.

    Thou art Peter and on this rock I will build my church, and I will give to thee the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven.


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    #79
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    1j5nwieg4zs039 wrote: »
    Thou art Peter and on this rock I will build my church, and I will give to thee the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven.

    You've obviously never looked at the Greek. He made a statement as to who Jesus was ..the Christ and then Jesus said, you are Peter ( a stone), upon this Rock (the Christ) I will build my Church.
    If you knew the scriptures, you'd know that Jesus was is that Rock and the gates of Hell won't prevail against Him. We know from Scripture that Jesus destroying the gates of Hell at Calvary.
    As for the keys. Peter used them. He opened the door of the gospel to Jews, Samaritans and Gentiles....job done.


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    #80
    feargale
    Registered Users Posts: 8,636 ✭✭✭feargale


    1j5nwieg4zs039 wrote: »
    You are correct, Nick Park. However, heretical popes work for satan and divide the flock. Hell will be hot enough for them.

    On what basis will Hell not be hot enough for them? Is that a wish on your part or is it based on an authority?


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    #81
    EirWatchr
    Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭EirWatchr


    Khalil Polite Flag wrote: »
    You've obviously never looked at the Greek. He made a statement as to who Jesus was ..the Christ and then Jesus said, you are Peter ( a stone), upon this Rock (the Christ) I will build my Church

    Koine Greek?


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    #82
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    I said hell will be hot enough for them.

    Anyone who is not working for the Kingdom cannot be admitted to the Kingdom.

    A pope, or any other person in authority, acts against the Kingdom when he sows doubts and divisions among the faithful, so they are left in confusion, not knowing the truth anymore. They are like sheep without a shepherd. The Lord will punish them eternally on the last day, which is fast approaching.


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    #83
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    I am speaking to you solodeogloria to tell you the truth. Do not allow yourself to be deceived. Do not be led down false paths. It is because I love you that I tell you this.


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    #84
    solodeogloria
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,739 ✭✭✭solodeogloria


    1j5nwieg4zs039 wrote: »
    I am speaking to you solodeogloria to tell you the truth. Do not allow yourself to be deceived. Do not be led down false paths. It is because I love you that I tell you this.

    Good morning!

    I think we're done until you can explain your positions. There is no Biblical backing for that claim and the Reformation happened with good justification.

    Much thanks,
    solodeogloria


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    #85
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    EirWatchr wrote: »
    Incorrect. There is only one "absolute" authority - God. Human authority is bestowed by Him.
    ... and the pope and the RCC claim that this authority is vested in the pope.
    EirWatchr wrote: »
    "Jesus answered, 'You would have no authority over Me unless it were given to you from above.'" Jn 19:11
    "There is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been instituted by God" Rom 13:1

    Is it not possible to use a position of authority to serve?

    "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve" Mk 10:45
    You can use a position of authority to serve ... but giving the impression that this is all you are doing, isn't correct, when papal authority has been and continues to be (predominantly) used to rule and enforce.
    Nothing wrong with that per se ... all authority rules and enforces ... its just the 'soft-soaping' impression of 'service only' that grates.
    ... a bit like the NYPD slogan to 'protect and serve' ... when to 'rule and enforce (the law)' is a more accurate description of what they mostly do.


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    #86
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    1j5nwieg4zs039 wrote: »
    I said hell will be hot enough for them.

    Anyone who is not working for the Kingdom cannot be admitted to the Kingdom.

    A pope, or any other person in authority, acts against the Kingdom when he sows doubts and divisions among the faithful, so they are left in confusion, not knowing the truth anymore. They are like sheep without a shepherd. The Lord will punish them eternally on the last day, which is fast approaching.

    I thought the conclave chose the new pope according to the will of God! How can they be false shepherds?

    Edit: my Bible says it's the new birth that enables us to enter Heaven...but I'm sure the RCC thinks it knows more than Jesus himself


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    #87
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    1j5nwieg4zs039 wrote: »
    Anyone who is not working for the Kingdom cannot be admitted to the Kingdom.

    Salvation by works, in other words.

    One often sees disparagement of 'Protestantism' along the lines of it's 60 zillion denominations. Is not Catholicism not divided along the most crucial of fault lines: the way of salvation.

    Some Catholics say that it isn't salvation by works. Others, you included, hold that it is by works.

    which is fast approaching.

    It's approaching at the same rate as it ever did. One day at a time. It's neither fast nor slow approaching.

    Unless, of course, you means in the sense that it's right upon us (as the last hours seem to a man approaching his death). I doubt you've an inside insight from the Lord in this regard.


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    #88
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    Satan has entered the Vatican, and the Pope utters falsity.
    The thing is, the Holy Spirit, while He is found fully and entirely in Holy Scripture, He is not confined by it. He moves where and when He wills.
    We argue different positions on this thread, quoting biblical texts to back up our beliefs.
    Even Satan, quotes scripture to his own ends.
    Every word of the Bible is true, and because of this, it cannot contradict itself. God cannot contradict Himself.

    The way to look at it is this. God the Father, through His Son and the Holy Spirit wants to be master of your heart. He demands that you love Him above all else, including your spouse and children. To enable Him to accomplish this, you must drive out all devils which lodge therein.
    With man, the devils lodge in three places, in his sexual organ, his heart and his mouth. These places must be totally cleansed, else God the Father, God the Son and God Holy Spirit will not come anywhere near you.
    The way to cleanse your soul is through the sacrament of Confession. "Go, show yourselves to the priests"
    Then you receive the sacrament of the Eucharist.
    Unless you receive the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ, he cannot live in you, nor you in Him. Through the mixing of His body and blood and your body and blood you become part of Him. There is no other way.
    This is the way to Eternal life.


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    #89
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    1j5nwieg4zs039 wrote: »

    The way to look at it is this. God the Father, through His Son and the Holy Spirit wants to be master of your heart. He demands that you love Him above all else, including your spouse and children. To enable Him to accomplish this, you must drive out all devils which lodge therein.
    With man, the devils lodge in three places, in his sexual organ, his heart and his mouth. These places must be totally cleansed, else God the Father, God the Son and God Holy Spirit will not come anywhere near you.
    The way to cleanse your soul is through the sacrament of Confession. "Go, show yourselves to the priests"
    Then you receive the sacrament of the Eucharist.
    Unless you receive the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ, he cannot live in you, nor you in Him. Through the mixing of His body and blood and your body and blood you become part of Him. There is no other way.
    This is the way to Eternal life.

    And yet Jesus said all we had to do was come to him, believe for to have eternal life.
    You do see where I'm going here Owen?
    As for "demanding" our love. "We love Him because He first loved us" love never demands.


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    #90
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    Sorry tatranska I'm using the wrong verb, I don't mean demanding. I'd rather say inviting. Thanks


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    #91
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    1j5nwieg4zs039 wrote: »
    Sorry tatranska I'm using the wrong verb, I don't mean demanding. I'd rather say inviting. Thanks

    You said demanding, based on my reading of your post I'd say that was what you meant.
    The post of course is contrary to the truth.


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