500 years ago today

branie2

Martin Luther started the Reformation

Peregrinus

branie2 wrote: »

Martin Luther started the Reformation

The followers of John Huss might disagree with you about that!

homer911

branie2 wrote: »

Martin Luther started the Reformation

Thank God!

Nick Park

I blogged about this today: https://eaiseanchai.wordpress.com/2017/10/31/luther-trick-or-treat-an-essay-to-mark-the-500th-anniversary-of-the-reformation/

To sum up, Luther was a pretty unpleasant character who would have cheerfully persecuted me as a heretic - but I'm glad he opened the door for religious freedom by recognising that people can read and interpret the Bible for themselves.

J C

It's something that many forget ... that The Reformation ... was actually a reformation of the Roman Catholic Church of the time, within different areas of Europe ... by Roman Catholics and former Roman Catholics.

Jellybaby1

It could be suggested that instead of 'Protestants' we should be 'Reformed Catholics', or even 'Reformed catholics'.

J C

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

It could be suggested that instead of 'Protestants' we should be 'Reformed Catholics', or even 'Reformed catholics'.

You could also be 'Protesting catholics' !!:D

For Saved Christians, however, this is all moot.

We are simply Saved Christians ... with a heritage right back to Jesus Christ ... and totally independent of any religion.

The Protestant Reformation reformed the Roman Catholic Church across northern Europe in the sixteenth century ... southern Europeans had to wait until the reforms of Vatican 2, in the twentieth century, for similar reforms to their churches.

It was a terrible pity that the Protestant Reformation didn't happen everywhere, at the time ... and without the bloodshed.

Jellybaby1

J C wrote: »

You could also be 'Protesting catholics' !!:D

For Saved Christians, however, this is all moot.

We are simply Saved Christians ... with a heritage right back to Jesus Christ ... and totally independent of any religion.

The Protestant Reformation reformed the Roman Catholic Church across northern Europe in the sixteenth century ... southern Europeans had to wait until the reforms of Vatican 2, in the twentieth century, for similar reforms to their churches.

It was a terrible pity that the Protestant Reformation didn't happen everywhere, at the time ... and without the bloodshed.

Yes, I'd go along with those quotes above. Lately I'm finding religion a terrible weight to carry, its just I'm lumbered with it now. There is no such thing as the perfect church, even those unconnected to any mainstream Christian religion.

Save

branie2

There's a two-part documentary on Luther on RTÉ 2 starting on Friday week

pauldla

A recent BBC podcast about Luther and the Reformation, recorded at Trinity College Cambridge.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3csv0s0


P

solodeogloria

Good morning!

Watched an excellent movie last night in German about the Lutheran Reformation. Hopefully it gets translated. I think one of it's strong points is highlighting the role of Tetzel in the indulgences scandal and in highlighting the importance of both services in German and translating the Bible into German.

It covers not only Luther but also Thomas Müntzer who was a Reformer who became involved with the peasants revolt and was based in nearby Jüterbog. It deals with some of their differences in respect to secular power. Müntzer was as much opposed to the Lutheran establishment and the rulers who supported Lutheranism as the Catholic church despite initially supporting Luther.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

J C

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

Yes, I'd go along with those quotes above. Lately I'm finding religion a terrible weight to carry, its just I'm lumbered with it now. There is no such thing as the perfect church, even those unconnected to any mainstream Christian religion.

Religion can complicate matters allright. It's good/important to act collectively within a church ... but we should ultimately only be lead by the Holy Spirit.
Ours is a straighforward easy faith ...

Matthew 11:28-30King James Version (KJV)
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

brian_t

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good morning!

Watched an excellent movie last night in German about the Lutheran Reformation. Hopefully it gets translated. I think one of it's strong points is highlighting the role of Tetzel in the indulgences scandal and in highlighting the importance of both services in German and translating the Bible into German.

It covers not only Luther but also Thomas Müntzer who was a Reformer who became involved with the peasants revolt and was based in nearby Jüterbog. It deals with some of their differences in respect to secular power. Müntzer was as much opposed to the Lutheran establishment and the rulers who supported Lutheranism as the Catholic church despite initially supporting Luther.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

The movie you saw "Zwischen Himmel und Hölle" starring Maximilian Brückner is the same one RTE2 is showing under the title "Reformation: The Story of Martin Luther".

Part one is on Friday 17th Nov at 9.40pm - part 2 is on Saturday at 10pm.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt6129760/

branie2 wrote: »

There's a two-part documentary on Luther on RTE2 starting on Friday week

Jellybaby1

J C wrote: »

Religion can complicate matters allright. It's good/important to act collectively within a church ... but we should ultimately only be lead by the Holy Spirit.
Ours is a straighforward easy faith ...

Matthew 11:28-30King James Version (KJV)
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Thank you for reminding me of those references. I have often asked the question, is it possible for me to be a Christian without the church, or even is it possible for me to be a Christian within the church? I wonder what Luther would think of it all today.

solodeogloria

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

Thank you for reminding me of those references. I have often asked the question, is it possible for me to be a Christian without the church, or even is it possible for me to be a Christian within the church? I wonder what Luther would think of it all today.

Good morning!

I don't think it is. If you think of the foundational logic of the Gospel it is basically about God gathering a people for Himself by adoption through the saving death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

We are people together with one Father as a result. This means laterally that we are brothers and sisters to one another but also that we are to hold the Gospel out to others so that they too might have this privilege of being able to relate to the God of the universe and His children.

The Bible says that it is important for Christians not to neglect meeting together but to meet to spur one another onto love and good works so that we can encourage one another more and more as the day draws near (Hebrews 10:24-25). The Bible also says surprisingly that the work of ministry is our work as the congregation and not the work of our minister. His job is to teach and equip the congregation to minister to one another. (Ephesians 4:11-13)

I think Luther would have thought that people should come and grow in love to Jesus and one another in church. Why do you think that he preached at Stadtskirche Sankt Marien for 30 years? Or why do you think he worked tirelessly to translate the Bible into German so that people could understand it while he was in Wartburg?

From an Anglican perspective I recommend a read of J.C Ryle's Five English Reformers. You'll see people who gave their very lives in love for others.

Being a lone ranger Christian is tempting but you can't do it alone and you weren't meant to. You can be a blessing to others in pointing then to Jesus and they can be a blessing to you.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

J C

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

Thank you for reminding me of those references. I have often asked the question, is it possible for me to be a Christian without the church, or even is it possible for me to be a Christian within the church? I wonder what Luther would think of it all today.

The simple answer is that you can be Saved without being a member of a Church ... but your Salvation should urge you to commit to a Church.
Christianity isn't a 'loner' faith ... it's to be lived out within a Christian community.

Matthew 18:20King James Version (KJV)
20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Jellybaby1

Understood. And of course Luther had a lot more to contend with than me.

ouxbbkqtswdfaw

Luther was a heretic who deprived millions of people of a sacramental life.

solodeogloria

1j5nwieg4zs039 wrote: »

Luther was a heretic who deprived millions of people of a sacramental life.

Good morning!

Thanks for your post. Forgive my ignorance but what is the "sacramental life". I've never heard this term before and I'd like to understand it.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

ouxbbkqtswdfaw

He deprived people of the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ in the Sacrament of the Eucharist.

feargale

1j5nwieg4zs039 wrote: »

Luther was a heretic who deprived millions of people of a sacramental life.

Am I allowed to snack on popcorn here?

ouxbbkqtswdfaw

You don't deserve a reply, but you can do as you wish.

feargale

1j5nwieg4zs039 wrote: »

Back to Christ's command. It's quite simple. The believer goes to Heaven, the athiest ie. non believer goes to hell.

No wonder there's trouble in the world.

1j5nwieg4zs039 wrote: »

You don't deserve a reply, but you can do as you wish.

And you, too can do as you wish, including believing that a wafer is meat and wine is blood, and if you drink a good quantity of it it will not intoxicate you. Thankfully, here and now others are free to believe otherwise. People died for that freedom of belief. My guess is that neither you nor many of those who think like you did much to achieve that freedom.
I googled this thread hoping to read interesting stuff about the Reformation, particularly historical stuff. I'm especially grateful for the information about the upcoming programmes on RTE and I will do my utmost to avoid missing them. I wasn't expecting proselytisation or polemics here. Here's hoping the thread gets back to what it is about.

ouxbbkqtswdfaw

Why are you, a non believer, on a Christian forum site?
You do your snivelling best to insult my beliefs, hiding behind a pretence of interest in the Reformation. Go and study it if you are interested, but do not insult me, and millions of others. Go and get lost to a history forum.

feargale

I'm a non-believer because I don't share your beliefs. You are a non-believer because you don't share mine.

1j5nwieg4zs039 wrote: »

Why are you, a non believer, on a Christian forum site?

I already explained why I am here before you asked. Why have you, a Roman Catholic, visited A&A sites?

1j5nwieg4zs039 wrote: »

You do your snivelling best to insult my beliefs,

Insult? Take a look at this:

1j5nwieg4zs039 wrote: »

Luther was a heretic who deprived millions of people of a sacramental life.

and this:

1j5nwieg4zs039 wrote: »

snivelling

Good at dishing it out but very very precious when anyone says boo to you.

1j5nwieg4zs039 wrote: »

hiding behind a pretence of interest in the Reformation.

So now you can read my mind. You've lost it, baloney,

1j5nwieg4zs039 wrote: »

Go and study it if you are interested, but do not insult me, and millions of others.

My aversion is not to you, but to bigotry.

1j5nwieg4zs039 wrote: »

Go and get lost to a history forum.

Get lost? Manners please. You're supposed to behave like a Christian gentleman.

ouxbbkqtswdfaw

I believe that Jesus Christ is truly present in the Holy Eucharist. You don't. There is no point in debating this. Let's just leave it as it is. Thanks, feargale.

solodeogloria

1j5nwieg4zs039 wrote: »

He deprived people of the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ in the Sacrament of the Eucharist.

Good evening!

I think this is an interesting point. I'd like to reply. Hopefully you'll be interested in what I say. If not I think it's a good opportunity to share more about a Reformed way of understanding this.

I disagree with you that Luther or any of the Reformers denied anyone any of these things. In fact Luther offered these things in a more direct way than the clergy permitted at the time.

Through the revealing of the Scriptures to the public in the common tongue aided by the printing press people got to understand Jesus' body in a more clear way. As the Lamb of God (John 1:36) and the true Temple which would be destroyed and rebuilt three days later (John 2:19-22) offered for our sins on the cross. Luther helped people to see Jesus' body in far more than The Lord's Supper but in every day life.

Luther gave the common Christian a much closer view through the Scriptures into Jesus' blood and the forgiveness of sins that it alone provides. Luther helped people to see that they are justified by Jesus' blood alone (Romans 5:9-11). Not through works. We have received reconciliation from God as an entirely underserved gift. Moreover it isn't given according to what we do. Luther read Paul's letter to the Romans and saw that salvation is a gift by God's grace through faith (Romans 4:1-6). How wonderful? It stopped crooks like Tetzel, who - in my mind was a real heretic - from stealing money from weak and vulnerable people through the sale of indulgences by telling them Jesus wasn't enough to be saved. This was encouraged by bishops and the Papacy. The Lord's Supper is not a sacrifice to be repeated but the remembrance of the once and for all sacrifice of Jesus the perfect substitute (Hebrews 9:11-12)

Luther helped people to see and hear about the Spirit that dwellt on God's perfect Son (John 1:33-34) and the work that He does today convicting the world concerning sin, righteousness and judgement (John 16:8-11) so that they might be born again (John 3:3) by God's spirit. Enabled to see things as they really are. Luther also gave people the accounts of life, death and resurrection of Jesus and His ministry so that people could see the heart and soul of Christ and repent daily. What a gift?

Luther also helped people to see that only God is righteous and that we cannot earn our way to heaven through penance and we cannot receive enough grace by participating in the sacraments but only through the cross. Luther helped people to read the Scriptures and see that Jesus is fully God and fully man (John 1:14).

All Luther did was expose people to the true Gospel that was being concealed from the people intentionally. As for The Lord's Supper we take the bread and the wine in remembrance of our Lord. You're right to say that Protestants don't have the same understanding as Catholics (for Biblical reasons) but it isn't true to say we deprive people of the sacrament at all. Luther open sourced the Gospel and gave the masses the ability to relate with God for themselves without depending on clergy to do so. That's a huge gift and one that I'm thankful for, I won't say that's heresy. It's God's word.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts and the thoughts of others.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

ouxbbkqtswdfaw

Solodeogloria, I would love to be able to reply to all your points. However, I am not as knowledgeable or as erudite as you.
All I do know is that Christ is wholly present in the Catholic Mass at the Eucharist. This was the universal belief prior to the Reformation. After the Reformation, all other churches diverged on this point. It is the great treasure of Catholicism.
It is the bread of life, the price of which is paid for by the passion, death, and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ.
We must eat the bread of life if we are to attain Eternal salvation. Thank you.

uck51js9zml2yt

1j5nwieg4zs039 wrote: »

Solodeogloria, I would love to be able to reply to all your points. However, I am not as knowledgeable or as erudite as you.

You really need to read the Bible more, all the answers to Solo's points are in it!

solodeogloria

Good evening!

owenybaloney wrote: »

Solodeogloria, I would love to be able to reply to all your points. However, I am not as knowledgeable or as erudite as you.
All I do know is that Christ is wholly present in the Catholic Mass at the Eucharist. This was the universal belief prior to the Reformation. After the Reformation, all other churches diverged on this point. It is the great treasure of Catholicism.
It is the bread of life, the price of which is paid for by the passion, death, and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ.
We must eat the bread of life if we are to attain Eternal salvation. Thank you.

I simply recommend looking at what Luther actually said about Jesus before calling him a heretic! I already partake in communion. I also partook in the communion as a good churchgoer at the CofI church I went to as a teenager before understanding the true gospel of grace. Before l was born again (John 3:7).

Salvation is about more than shoving some bread and wine into your gob. True belief in the Gospel is much better than taking communion.

It isn't enough to say the Catholic church says X, Y or Z. The important question is whether or not it is right. Is it what the Bible says?

Before you come back to me to say the church and the pope can be never wrong - Johann Tetzel was encouraged by Pope Leo X with selling indulgences. He told people if they bought indulgences for themselves and family members with the hope of getting out of purgatory. Was Tetzel wrong?

Khalil Polite Flag wrote: »

You really need to read the Bible more, all the answers to Solo's points are in it!

The poster claims that I'm knowledgeable and erudite. I want to say to him that I'm sod all. All that I am God has given me.

Posting truth on this forum challenges the pride in my heart and helps me to see Jesus for who He really is and to see me for what I'm not.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

ouxbbkqtswdfaw

Well, if all the answers to her points are in the Bible, why doesn't she see them for herself?
Solodeogloria, there is such a great chasm between us regarding the way to salvation that it is impossible for you to influence my position about the centrality of the Eucharist, or me to influence yours.
As regards the Pope, he is dragging the one true church into the mire, and will pay dearly for his causing further confusion and scattering of the flock. Thank you.