Discovery 1x07 – "Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad" [** SPOILERS **]

Antar Bolaeisk

Easiest the best episode yet and I thought it was a nice spin to see the timeloop trope from the perspective of those caught in it. It felt like they put a lot of effort in to the beginning of it though and got lazy at the end, Tilly should have saved the day!

Also, did they just let Mudd go scot-free with all the knowledge of the Disco he'd gained from his multiple loops?

AMKC

Deleted User wrote: »

Was that in the last loop or were there other ones?

I think it was in the second last loop he says he is tired of all the time loops. Its 20 mins in. There is one more after that then at 26 mins.

AMKC

AMKC wrote: »

I think it was in the second last loop he says he is tired of all the time loops. Its 20 mins in. There is one more after that then at 26 mins.

So theoretically there could have been 53 more loops in between. We don't know, but we can see Stamets is being becoming increasingly more frustrated with each one.

What I like is that we're not given what happened in the loops we didn't see. The show isn't treating us like idiots.

server down

Of course the second last and last loop we saw was the second last and last loop. The first loop we saw was the first loop. The rest we dont know.

PhiloCypher

Bacchus wrote: »

How does that work when everything jumps back half an hour. He starts the loop on a ship, off the Discovery. How would he have control over any of the Discovery systems from that starting point? That could work maybe if he started the loop once the whale was beamed on board, but that's not what happened.

The easiest explanation for me is that his wrist pipboy relays all the information he needs back to his ship within the whale, which exists out of time due to the time crystal, so every time the loops begins he has all the information he needs from the previous loops at his fingertips and accessible via his wrist thingie.

Zillah

I quite liked the premise. Plenty of time loop episodes, but a time loop heist story I haven't seen before. Keep trying an impossible heist until you eventually work out all of the details, and having Stamets short circuit his plan was clever.

Still full of phenomenal stupidity, of course, but at least it wasn't as relentless as other episodes. Ending was utterly bizarre and terrible. Commit high treason, attempt murder, and try to steal the ship and enslave starfleet officers, and your punishment is...being sent back to your inlaws...?

coffee_cake

Zillah wrote: »

I quite liked the premise. Plenty of time loop episodes, but a time loop heist story I haven't seen before. Keep trying an impossible heist until you eventually work out all of the details, and having Stamets short circuit his plan was clever.

Still full of phenomenal stupidity, of course, but at least it wasn't as relentless as other episodes. Ending was utterly bizarre and terrible. Commit high treason, attempt murder, and try to steal the ship and enslave starfleet officers, and your punishment is...being sent back to your inlaws...?

Yeah though i suppose in that timeline he hadn't done anything and his time crystal watch had disintegrated so maybe there was no proof at all.



I was ok with the whole convincing the captain thing since we had already established stamets knew to ask for a secret, so he could have done something like that in missing loops.
Plus of all captains ever, lorca isTOTALLY a "ehhh fcuk it i've nothing else happening right now, let's go with it" kinda guy.

AMKC

bluewolf wrote: »

Yeah though i suppose in that timeline he hadn't done anything and his time crystal watch had disintegrated so maybe there was no proof at all.



I was ok with the whole convincing the captain thing since we had already established stamets knew to ask for a secret, so he could have done something like that in missing loops.
Plus of all captains ever, lorca isTOTALLY a "ehhh fcuk it i've nothing else happening right now, let's go with it" kinda guy.

Some people compared Lorca to Captain Jellico who took over command of the Enterprise D in Chain of Command but to me Lorca is a terrible Captain a good soldier maybe but as a Captain there is no way you would want to serve under him if you value your life. He really does not care and seems to have zero interest in learning or exploring about something new like the space whale for instance.
Even Captain Jellico was more grounded than Lorca. He ran a tight shift yes but at least it was because thats how he thought he could get the best out of the crew.

Zillah

bluewolf wrote: »

Yeah though i suppose in that timeline he hadn't done anything

Uhm, he broke onto a starfleet ship, usurped control of their primary systems, actively tried to contact the Federation's war opponent and tried to not only sell the ship but also to enslave two crew members along with it. He bragged loudly and clearly that this was his intention in front of a dozen witnesses.

That's just the last "canon" loop.

coffee_cake

Zillah wrote: »

Uhm, he broke onto a starfleet ship, usurped control of their primary systems, actively tried to contact the Federation's war opponent and tried to not only sell the ship but also to enslave two crew members along with it. He bragged loudly and clearly that this was his intention in front of a dozen witnesses.

That's just the last "canon" loop.

He did break in didn't he?
huh. I duno so

Johnny Storm

pixelburp wrote: »

the idea of (Tyler) being a Klingon in disguise feels more and more unwelcome / unlikely; he's just too socially capable & emotionally sophisticated to be an alien.

+1

Star Fleet officers taking the time for dancing, snogging, exploring their feelings etc while the ship was in immanent danger was a bit jarring, IMHO

expectationlost

bit contrived that tyler wouldn't speak to stannis and would only speak to michael while dancing

AtomicHorror

Bacchus wrote: »

Continuity fail here actually. Were Saru's "danger tentacles" having a day off?

They emerge when he perceives a threat. He's not psychic.

Johnny Storm

AtomicHorror wrote: »

They emerge when he perceives a threat. He's not psychic.

An ep or two ago, they popped out just seconds before Michael arrived on the bridge

pixelburp

expectationlost wrote: »

bit contrived that tyler wouldn't speak to stannis and would only speak to michael while dancing

Lol wrong show I think there, though that certainly conjures up a weird mash up

AtomicHorror

Johnny Storm wrote: »

An ep or two ago, they popped out just seconds before Michael arrived on the bridge

Good senses of hearing, smell?

From a practical storytelling perspective there has to be some limits to this trait, and it's clearly subjective since Burham is no more dangerous than Lorca. Does Saru sense that danger?

Zillah

They didn't make any effort to make Saru's danger-sense make any sense. It's definitely portrayed as being psychic in the first few episodes; not explicitly, but it's the only way it makes sense - doesn't he say he senses the coming of death in relation to the entire Klingon situation the Shenzou gets involved in? But later a terrorist storms the bridge and Saru doesn't twitch.

It's fine, it's no big deal, but it's another example of the writers being sloppy with details and consistency (not Trek canon consistency; consistency with their own content).

Effects

Slydice wrote: »

The preview for the 8th episode looks ominous for the Admiral. It's just the shot between the 15 and 16 seconds mark but a Klingon blade being lifted and an apprehensive look on the face...

Could just be something in the captains man cave.

Bacchus

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Good senses of hearing, smell?

From a practical storytelling perspective there has to be some limits to this trait, and it's clearly subjective since Burham is no more dangerous than Lorca. Does Saru sense that danger?

Well then they should set the bounds and stick to them. In the pilot episodes he detailed how his species have evolved to sense imminent danger and death. Following which he expressed that he sensed death was coming (which it did). As mentioned also, a few episodes ago before Michael even arrived on the bridge he was on alert. Michael also used this trait to determine if the space bedbug posed a threat. There's been no mention of his species having heighten senses of hearing or smell. From an evolution point of view I can see how he should have those though. For now they have wiggle room to set the parameters of this "sense" that he has but I have the feeling it'll just be used or ignored as demanded by the story they want to tell. This power could very well end up making Saru the Troi of Discovery.

Canis Lupus

I liked the episode although not terribly fond of the ending.

Goodshape

I think as soon as Mudd let the time run out in the final loop, it got ridicules. In that moment Mudd turns from an unstoppable threat into a loan lunatic surrounded, quite literally, by people who want to stop him. But they don't. They all just stand around paralysed. I get that the Starfleet crew had a plan, but what was Mudd thinking? He just gleefully lets his only leverage expire, as if it'll be a loss for the Discovery crew when it does.

I guess we were supposed to believe a single Klingon ship on the starboard bow is enough to stop some quick thinking and action from an entire ship full of trained crew members, but that's a bit of a stretch. Stun Mudd as soon as the time runs out, raise shields, warp/dash away.

Or, you know, concoct some elaborate plan to prank the guy and send him off scot-free to his wife and in-laws. *shrug*.


Really enjoyed the episode up until that though

Bacchus

Goodshape wrote: »

I think as soon as Mudd let the time run out in the final loop, it got ridicules. In that moment Mudd turns from an unstoppable threat into a loan lunatic surrounded, quite literally, by people who want to stop him. But they don't. They all just stand around paralysed. I get that the Starfleet crew had a plan, but what was Mudd thinking? He just gleefully lets his only leverage expire, as if it'll be a loss for the Discovery crew when it does.

I guess we were supposed to believe a single Klingon ship on the starboard bow is enough to stop some quick thinking and action from an entire ship full of trained crew members, but that's a bit of a stretch. Stun Mudd as soon as the time runs out, raise shields, warp/dash away.

Or, you know, concoct some elaborate plan to prank the guy and send him off scot-free to his wife and in-laws. *shrug*.


Really enjoyed the episode up until that though

I'll turn defender of the episode for a moment :P

As far as Mudd was concerned when the clock ran down he was game, set and match. He had complete control of all critical systems. The Klingons were on the way. Starfleet crew were locked out so there was nothing they could do to mount a resistance. Even stunning him would do no good. He was a victim of his own confidence in the end that he didn't see the ruse coming but that fits the character IMO. I actually don't have too much of a problem with the resolution in the final loop (barring letting him go home with Stella with a warning which was 50 shades of stupid)... it just the disconnect with the seemingly important events of the previous loops that I take issue with. It felt like they were going down one path and ultimately went down a fairly mundane one instead.

Goodshape

Bacchus wrote: »

He had complete control of all critical systems.

I'd forgotten about that. Klingons poised to attack and Mudd the only one in control of the systems, that might put the Discovery crew in a bit of a bind alright.

PhiloCypher

Bacchus wrote: »

I'll turn defender of the episode for a moment :P

As far as Mudd was concerned when the clock ran down he was game, set and match. He had complete control of all critical systems. The Klingons were on the way. Starfleet crew were locked out so there was nothing they could do to mount a resistance. Even stunning him would do no good. He was a victim of his own confidence in the end that he didn't see the ruse coming but that fits the character IMO. I actually don't have too much of a problem with the resolution in the final loop (barring letting him go home with Stella with a warning which was 50 shades of stupid)... it just the disconnect with the seemingly important events of the previous loops that I take issue with. It felt like they were going down one path and ultimately went down a fairly mundane one instead.

You're referring to them discovering the ship inside the Gormogander? I could be wrong I've only seen the episode through once so my recollection of when events happened might be off but my theory is that the ship did come back into play but we just didn't get to see it. When Mudds wrist thing poofs into nothing in the final loop maybe that's Tilly and Stamets gaining control of the ship and switching it off , we just dont get a Picardesque thank you Mr La Forge(think Devils Due) from Burnham or Lorca.

So I think it's more a case of the writers leaving us to fill in a few too many dots in this case, then an outright plothole. That's assuming my recollection of the sequence of events is right of course.

Bacchus

PhiloCypher wrote: »

You're referring to them discovering the ship inside the Gormogander? I could be wrong I've only seen the episode through once so my recollection of when events happened might be off but my theory is that the ship did come back into play but we just didn't get to see it. When Mudds wrist thing poofs into nothing in the final loop maybe that's Tilly and Stamets gaining control of the ship and switching it off , we just dont get a Picardesque thank you Mr La Forge(think Devils Due) from Burnham or Lorca.

So I think it's more a case of the writers leaving us to fill in a few too many dots in this case, then an outright plothole. That's assuming my recollection of the sequence of events is right of course.

Nope. Because...
1. Mudd did not seem at all surprised when it poofed into nothing. It was an expected result of rejoining time.
2. Noone in the final loop was aware of the ship inside the whale. Stamets was in Mudds custody in the previous loop when Michael & Tilly discovered it so there was no way to pass that info along.

expectationlost

mudd said beam the "klingons" aboard as soon as I reach the transporter room

The_Valeyard

I for one, welcome the space whale.

hal9550

The_Valeyard wrote: »

I for one, welcome the space whale.

Greyjoy

I really enjoyed the episode as i like the concept of time loop episodes. However I felt the writers glossed over how Mudd accessed the ship's computer so easily. No doubt he learned how to access it during one of his loops but that's a task order of magnitude more difficult than just learning when to duck into hallways to avoid the crew. I also thought the ending was a jarring change of tone. It's hard to reconcile this murderous version of Mudd with the much more comical version that Kirk and the Enterprise crew encounter later on.

AMKC

Greyjoy wrote: »

I really enjoyed the episode as i like the concept of time loop episodes. However I felt the writers glossed over how Mudd accessed the ship's computer so easily. No doubt he learned how to access it during one of his loops but that's a task order of magnitude more difficult than just learning when to duck into hallways to avoid the crew. I also thought the ending was a jarring change of tone. It's hard to reconcile this murderous version of Mudd with the much more comical version that Kirk and the Enterprise crew encounter later on.

However I felt the writers glossed over how Mudd accessed the ship's computer so easily.

Maybe the computer he had on his arm was able to access it for him. Either that are he must be very good at hacking.