Discovery 1x07 – "Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad" [** SPOILERS **]

Sad Professor

Warning: This thread will contain spoilers for the episode "Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad". Spoiler tags will not be used, so if you don't want to be spoiled read no further.

corkie

Normally I don't like "Groundhog Day" episodes, but this was OK. If a bit stupid at times.

Loved it, loved it, loved it. Very much Trek. Very funny.

Slydice

That was decent time loop episode. It has me thinking I don't remember enough from the original series. I wonder if we'll learn more about Mudds. fourth dimensional species.

Slydice

The preview for the 8th episode looks ominous for the Admiral. It's just the shot between the 15 and 16 seconds mark but a Klingon blade being lifted and an apprehensive look on the face...

Fenster

Stupid and fun, loved it.

_Kaiser_

OK, credit where credit is due.. that was very enjoyable.

hal9550

It was decent for sure.. but i would actually say that it wasnt the best of the new episodes.. I still reckon episode 3 was best.. for me anyway

i definitely enjoyed it but.. for comparison.. TNG's 'Cause and Effect' was way better.. IMHO

That said i did enjoy it, it was well executed.. i would require more information though about a 'fourth Dimensional ' species.. and how Mudd acquired such a device.. I was hopeful for something that would give us viewers a clue RE the various theories on Lorca and Ash.. although the fact Lorca had a 'Dark Matter' weapon in his 'Man-Cave' was very interesting

MIRROR UNIVERSE/SPORES
I also think the SPORES allowing Stamets to exist outside linear time is a MASSIVE pointer toward how they will encounter the MIRROR UNIVERSE.. I think its VERY CLEAR that he is the one who will introduce it as a plot device

Id be interested in seeing if anyone has anything to say on this

Overall good episode although again not quite up to the standard of previous Trek/Time-travel episodes

Iseedeadpixels

Hopefully thats the last we see of Rainn Wilson, his acting for Mudd is bad and annoying, reminds me of his character in Transformers.

The_Valeyard

Iseedeadpixels wrote: »

Hopefully thats the last we see of Rainn Wilson, his acting for Mudd is bad and annoying, reminds me of his character in Transformers.

i really like him.

BrookieD

`Very much a classic trek built episode that on whole moved away from the season arc - good addition to the season so far, still loving Tilly, have a thing for red heads...lol

PhiloCypher

BrookieD wrote: »

`Very much a classic trek built episode that on whole whole moved away fromthe season arc - good addition to the season so far, still loving Tilly, have a thing for red heads...lol

I think it did great job of serving many mistresses, we found out with Discovery's help the tide has turned in the war, Stamets pointedly remarks that Ash is remarkably well adjusted considering he was tortured for 7 months(a nod to the Voq theory that I hope never comes to pass), we get further integration of Burnham into the crew , and through necessity she is forced out of her emotional comfort zone with Tyler in order to break the time loop cycle. All good stuff .

It was slow going to begin with but this crew are really beginning to come together and feel like a team in a way that feels earned rather then the forced banter we got on the Shenzou in Episodes 1 & 2.

PhiloCypher

PhiloCypher wrote: »

I think it did great job of serving many mistresses, we found out with Discovery's help the tide has turned in the war, Stamets pointedly remarks that Ash is remarkably well adjusted considering he was tortured for 7 months(a nod to the Voq theory that I hope never comes to pass), we get further integration of Burnham into the crew , and through necessity she is forced out of her emotional comfort zone with Tyler in order to break the time loop cycle. All good stuff .

It was slow going to begin with but this crew are really beginning to come together and feel like a team in a way that feels earned rather then the forced banter we got on the Shenzou in Episodes 1 & 2.

Slow going? We're on episode 7. Seven. Other Trek franchises took full seasons of 20-something episodes before it would get to the level Discovery is on now.

Mitch Connor

thought the ending resolution was very poor. Up to then I really enjoyed the episode.

Goodshape

Yup, really good episode. Bit silly in places but in a classic Star Trek style. Great to see everyone settling in and that they can handle a more traditional (or at least the most yet) 45 minute adventure, while still teasing the larger story arcs.

Rainn Wilson is very good as Mudd, although I can't fathom how they would let him essentially walk away with just a caretaker promise from the father in-law. If they had locked him in the brig and shipped him back to Starfleet it'd give the writers some leeway for another guest spot, too.

ezra_

Goodshape wrote: »

Yup, really good episode. Bit silly in places but in a classic Star Trek style. Great to see everyone settling in and that they can handle a more traditional (or at least the most yet) 45 minute adventure, while still teasing the larger story arcs.

Rainn Wilson is very good as Mudd, although I can't fathom how they would let him essentially walk away with just a caretaker promise from the father in-law. If they had locked him in the brig and shipped him back to Starfleet it'd give the writers some leeway for another guest spot, too.

Might be something to do with leaving him in the Klingon prison in the first place.

Liked the episode, not at all what I was expecting.

PhiloCypher

Deleted User wrote: »

Slow going? We're on episode 7. Seven. Other Trek franchises took full seasons of 20-something episodes before it would get to the level Discovery is on now.

I meant in terms of the crew loosening up not in terms of quality.

Mitch Connor wrote: »

thought the ending resolution was very poor. Up to then I really enjoyed the episode.

With them sending MUD back to a life of misery with his fiance and overbearing father in law ? That ending is straight up TOS and straight out of the Kirk playbook. People keep making the mistake of using TNG as their touchstone as to how things should be done , but Discovery is set around the TOS era and the tone and ending of this episode is textbook TOS

Goodshape wrote: »

Yup, really good episode. Bit silly in places but in a classic Star Trek style. Great to see everyone settling in and that they can handle a more traditional (or at least the most yet) 45 minute adventure, while still teasing the larger story arcs.

Rainn Wilson is very good as Mudd, although I can't fathom how they would let him essentially walk away with just a caretaker promise from the father in-law. If they had locked him in the brig and shipped him back to Starfleet it'd give the writers some leeway for another guest spot, too.

What precludes him from escaping the clutches of Stella and her dad and showing up again? He seems pretty resourceful.

Mitch Connor

PhiloCypher wrote: »

With them sending MUD back to a life of misery with his fiance and overbearing father in law ? That ending is straight up TOS and straight out of the Kirk playbook. People keep making the mistake of using TNG as their touchstone as to how things should be done , but Discovery is set around the TOS era and the tone and ending of this episode is textbook TOS

I'm not critiquing it against TNG or TOS - I'm personally not looking for it to ape any other series.

I simply think that having basically accomplished his plan in the previous timeline - having killed the crew many times over, having worked out the drive, having organised to sell it to the Klingons that the way they defeated him is simply to send him back to his fiance. It just felt a very weak ending to what had been a potentially huge disaster.

And sending him to his fiance really doesn't seem like it would be that big a blocker against him causing them big problems again in the future.

Not a very definitive solution imo - that is why I didn't like it.

Al Capwned

Coincidentally Cause and Effect was on Sci Fi this morning, and I watched this this afternoon.
This is infinitely better. I actually laughed at some of that TNG episode earlier.
Loving Discovery so far.

spookwoman

PhiloCypher wrote: »

What precludes him from escaping the clutches of Stella and her dad and showing up again? He seems pretty resourceful.

Would be interesting if he does a runner. Daddies an arms dealer and he said doesn't want to be in debt to federation.

pah

I like the way Stamits was secondary to the loop as it developed from the start. The standard fare here is to follow the person experiencing the timeloop and their reactions to realising what is happening and then their attempts to correct same - This was a refreshing take on that theme.

pixelburp

That was definitely the most demonstrably similar to a 'classic' Trek episode so far, and also the most .... frivolous, I guess? Self contained certainly, notwithstanding the thawing of Burnham's various relationships. While the scripts still nod towards _something_ about Tyler that we should be worried about - and I'm sure there will be some revelation - the idea of him being a Klingon in disguise feels more and more unwelcome / unlikely; he's just too socially capable & emotionally sophisticated to be an alien.

As for Mudd, I like Wilson's portrayal myself; adding just the right measure of menace to a character that was so demonstrably camp & silly in the Original Series. I was a little ... sceptical as to how someone like Mudd would fit into a version of Trek this intentionally humourless, but it worked.

So, Stamets then & his sudden happy eccentricity: I'm guessing this upward mood swing is going to play into the plot at some point? Maybe the integration with the tardigrade DNA is burning his candle at both ends & he's slowly degrading ... or something...

Edit: also, Wyonna Earp fans might have noticed Mudd's wife Stella was played by Katherine Barrell, aka, Officer Haught

BrookieD

Mitch Connor wrote: »

thought the ending resolution was very poor. Up to then I really enjoyed the episode.

Have to agree, it jarred to much from the crimes committed. Surely Lorca would have nailed Mudd

Really enjoyed that one a lot, especially as someone else said, stamets was secondary to it so we didn't go through the usual personal discovery of it all. Wasn't convinced about him giving your man the spore drive near the end but sure

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

I loved the montage of the various Lorca deaths. Also the ending very much fit within the kind of endings you got in ToS and even in some of the TNG series.

pixelburp

The ending felt like an intentional concession towards Mudds status in the original series. We always knew he'd survive one way or the other and needed to end up back with Stella somehow; the writing could have been better but all told was fine, if a little flat compared against the otherwise high standard of the episode overall

pinkypinky

I really liked it. No Klingons. Classic Trek motif of time loops. Sure Cause & Effect is a better episode but it's a top 10, maybe 15 episode of TNG. I got my old Star Trek Encyclopedia out afterward to read about Mudd.

bajer101

Enjoyable enough, but Stamets could have easily solved it by simply advising the Captain not to beam it aboard.

server down

BrookieD wrote: »

Have to agree, it jarred to much from the crimes committed. Surely Lorca would have nailed Mudd

He didn’t kill anybody in that timeline.

The only issue I had with it is how they managed to convince everybody who needed convincing in the last 30 minute sequence. (Also the captains chair was a bit of a cop out)

Optimus Prime

Really enjoyed it. Loved muds space suit. Thought it really tied in with the look of the original series , the helmet he had when he first came out the the alien creature.

pixelburp

Optimus Prime wrote: »

Really enjoyed it. Loved muds space suit. Thought it really tied in with the look of the original series , the helmet he had when he first came out the the alien creature.

I'd forgotten about that, as you say it looked quite like something from the Original Series, but with a modern inflection. The antenna styling made me wonder if it were andorrian in origin.

AtomicHorror

bajer101 wrote: »

Enjoyable enough, but Stamets could have easily solved it by simply advising the Captain not to beam it aboard.

Burnham and Tyler tried that, why would Stamets be more convincing? Saru quoted the regs.

Also Starring LeVar Burton

I'm a big fan of Time Loop TV Episodes and Films, so thoroughly enjoyed this episode.

bajer101

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Burnham and Tyler tried that, why would Stamets be more convincing? Saru quoted the regs.

They didn't try at all. Stamets knew and could easily have stopped it. He could have just told the captain don't beam that yoke on board and used the same advantage Mudd used.

I liked this show at the start and was willing to give it the benefit of the doubt. But this is not Trek. I am getting less of a Trek vibe off it as each episode goes by. The Orville is much closer to Trek.

Bacchus

That felt much more like a classic Trek episode and I really enjoyed it. A bit of fun to change the pace of the serious Klingon war arc.

The ending was a muddled mess though that didn't resolve the issue neatly. I'm not talking about Stella and her Dad btw, I'm talking about how they actually bested Mudd. Sure, that is a typical flaw in time travel episodes but this one felt particularly lazy.

Ok, so Michael and Tilly (who is scanning the whale for some reason... cause only she could detect a friggin ship inside it!) discover the power source for Mudd's time travel device. Time reset though so they don't retain this knowledge to pass it on to Stamets. In any case, this discovery seemed to have no bearing AT ALL on how they beat Mudd. In the next loop, Stamets just reveals himself as the missing piece to save crewmembers... crewmembers that would simply be revived on the next loop. This might have come across as part of a masterplan except Michael had to put together a last ditch plan (revealing her identity to Mudd) to force another loop. Now, on the next loop, suddenly the entire bridge crew has been convinced of the threat and a devious plan has been put in place (when previous loops have shown how difficult it was to convince 2 or 3 people of the threat in time). That's kind of ok but it felt completely disconnected with everything in the previous loops. The previous two significant loops added nothing to this plan. Once Stamets had a way to convince Michael, we could have just jumped straight to the plan in the final loop. Finding the ship in the whale, Stamet's revealing he is the missing piece, Michael revealing who she was... none of it formed any part of getting one over on Mudd. Also, Michael should have had no knowledge of that she revealed her identity (and value to the Klingons) to Mudd on the previous loop but she references it anyway.

\rant

Bacchus

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Burnham and Tyler tried that, why would Stamets be more convincing? Saru quoted the regs.

Continuity fail here actually. Were Saru's "danger tentacles" having a day off?

server down

I agree. It needed an extra loop where the captain was convinced somehow. They had 30 minutes to convince everybody and no just hatch but carry out this complex plan. However they clearly want to keep Mudd alive.

seamus

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Burnham and Tyler tried that, why would Stamets be more convincing? Saru quoted the regs.

The thing about this episode is that they allowed it to be more fluid.

Time-loop episodes traditionally follow a formula, where you see them enter the loop (usually with a shocking death or explosion), then the second, 3rd, 4th, etc. And you see the characters slowly build realisation of what's happening.

This episode decided to go for loop 1, then an immediate jump to loop fifty-something.

In essence, at the end of each loop the viewer was left with lots of questions, rather than the benefit of knowing what was going to happen next time. The episode was attempting to make the viewer feel like they were being reset every loop too - rather than us getting Stamet's view of the loop, we got Burnham's (or at least as close as possible to it).

This also gives lots of free space and fluidity to what you can write. Any "why didn't Stamets just do X" question can be answered with - "he did, and it didn't work, so he tried something else".

I was a little unsatisfied by the ending. It was a darkly comic episode and then the tone at the end was suddenly light-hearted, even after Mudd had killed the entire ship potentially hundreds of times. But as pointed out above, they still have to align with TOS, so any ending which resulted in Mudd becoming an arch-nemesis of Discovery would need significant retconning to resolve before the end of the series.

I might be wrong, but I'm pretty certain at one point they didn't beam it on, but Mudd still managed to get on the ship.

De Bhál

server down wrote: »

I agree. It needed an extra loop where the captain was convinced somehow. They had 30 minutes to convince everybody and no just hatch but carry out this complex plan. However they clearly want to keep Mudd alive.

well I guess just the captain had to be convinced then everyone else will follow his orders whether they believe the story or not.


The part I found questionable was that Burnham reckoned the Kilingon's valued her more than the Federations top weapon which they couldn't defeat.

Was T'Kavma that much of a hero, that when she killed him she moved to the top of the Wanted list.

Bacchus

Deleted User wrote: »

I might be wrong, but I'm pretty certain at one point they didn't beam it on, but Mudd still managed to get on the ship.

Good point. There was a loop where that happened but he still got on. Another fairly big inconsistency and only further highlights how irrelevant it was that Tilly found the ship.

De Bhál wrote: »

well I guess just the captain had to be convinced then everyone else will follow his orders whether they believe the story or not.

Which is why I say it kind of gets away with it BUT nothing was built on from the previous loops (as per my post above) so it felt like a very thrown together "oh we'll just do this now, how did we not think of it before" resolution.

De Bhál wrote: »

The part I found questionable was that Burnham reckoned the Kilingon's valued her more than the Federations top weapon which they couldn't defeat.

Was T'Kavma that much of a hero, that when she killed him she moved to the top of the Wanted list.

Yeah, I didn't quite buy that either. I'm sure they'd pay a lot for her but more than the ship?

The_Valeyard

To all those people pointing out 'inconsistency'

simple solution

Trouble with the space time continuum when using temporal devices. Sometimes a paradox can be created.

Asus X540L

Wow jumped the shark at the end.

Thought this was a much darker ST that ending would be ridiculous in the TOS

Bacchus

The_Valeyard wrote: »

To all those people pointing out 'inconsistency'

simple solution

Trouble with the space time continuum when using temporal devices. Sometimes a paradox can be created.

I'm not even talking about some awkward corner they wrote themselves into or some minor mistake. I'm talking about basic things like the discovery of the ship in the whale 1) being so hard to find in the first place and 2) ending up completely inconsequential to the outcome... yet it was made out as a significant find. Or Michael seemingly knowing about her own plan (which Stamets was not aware of) in the final loop.

An otherwise very enjoyable episode tarnished by some pretty lazy writing.

Inviere

Yet another solid episode, and a clever, refreshing take on the time loop concept. That said, the ending resolution was quite badly done.

seamus

I'm not sure if the writing was "lazy" as opposed to intentionally scattered to give the viewer the impression of also being in a time loop - lots of information just being sprung on you as if out of nowhere.

My understanding of finding the ship in the whale bit was that they were confirming what they believed about Mudd's method for looping and thus the realization that they'd need to force him to "reset" in order to save everyone.

We rarely saw them tell Stamets what they discovered - but they must have done so in order for him to carry it into the next loop. The entire episode was missing continuity from one loop to the next, but I believe that was the intention. Because the only two people who actually had continuity - Mudd & Stamets - were secondary characters. We were following Burnham, who had no continuity, and therefore we got no continuity either.

I'll have to watch it again. I had babies needing feeding and a wife walking in and out , so a second watch might clarify whether that was the intention or whether it was just a bit sloppy.

CramCycle

I just presumed that they presumed we would use our own common sense to fill in the blanks. Can you imagine how annoying it would have been if they took the time to fill in Stamets every time they learned something new.

We would be sitting here claiming worst episode ever, do they think we are idiots who need everything handed to them.

They made a point that he had done it over 50+ times at one stage. I just took it that if Stamets said something or they acted on something learned in a previous loop, they had filled in Stamets in some way, be it in person or over comms.

PhiloCypher

I think if writers tried to close every logic gap in time travel stories we would end up with very dry and humorless stories as most of the screen time would be devoted to the mechanics of time travel and who knew what when. Could a line by Burnham telling Tilly to find and fill in Stamets for the last loop have helped ,sure , but couldn't we all just assume that happened anyway like all the other looped conversations we weren't privy to.

AMKC

bajer101 wrote: »

Enjoyable enough, but Stamets could have easily solved it by simply advising the Captain not to beam it aboard.

I think Mudd only needed to get on board that way once and then after that he could probably transport on board the ship from his own ship even if it was not in the Discovery.

Optimus Prime wrote: »

Really enjoyed it. Loved muds space suit. Thought it really tied in with the look of the original series , the helmet he had when he first came out the the alien creature.

Me too at first I thought it was some sort of alien but then the helmet came off.

Deleted User wrote: »

I might be wrong, but I'm pretty certain at one point they didn't beam it on, but Mudd still managed to get on the ship.

I think he only needed it to be be beamed aboard the ship once and after that it did not matter as he was able to get on with or without it being on Discovery then.

Bacchus wrote: »

I'm not even talking about some awkward corner they wrote themselves into or some minor mistake. I'm talking about basic things like the discovery of the ship in the whale 1) being so hard to find in the first place and 2) ending up completely inconsequential to the outcome... yet it was made out as a significant find. Or Michael seemingly knowing about her own plan (which Stamets was not aware of) in the final loop.

An otherwise very enjoyable episode tarnished by some pretty lazy writing.

being so hard to find in the first place.

I think it was hard to find as it was not easy to scan what was inside the creature. It could be done just not with standard scans.

I enjoyed the episode but like other's I thought the ending could have been better.
I had also watched ''Cause and Effect'' yesterday and it is a classic TNG episode. Never get bored of it.

Bacchus

seamus wrote: »

I'm not sure if the writing was "lazy" as opposed to intentionally scattered to give the viewer the impression of also being in a time loop - lots of information just being sprung on you as if out of nowhere.

My understanding of finding the ship in the whale bit was that they were confirming what they believed about Mudd's method for looping and thus the realization that they'd need to force him to "reset" in order to save everyone.

They discovered that information in the loop where Mudd had already taken Stamets prisoner and the Klingons were on the way. A reset was a given anyway. What extra information did the discovery of the ship actually provide? Had they tried to use the ship to take control of the loop, then I would have been intrigued by how they used it. As it was used though, it had no bearing on need to reset that loop, or on any decision made in subsequent loops (as there was no way to pass it along to the next loop).

CramCycle wrote: »

I just presumed that they presumed we would use our own common sense to fill in the blanks. Can you imagine how annoying it would have been if they took the time to fill in Stamets every time they learned something new.

We would be sitting here claiming worst episode ever, do they think we are idiots who need everything handed to them.

They made a point that he had done it over 50+ times at one stage. I just took it that if Stamets said something or they acted on something learned in a previous loop, they had filled in Stamets in some way, be it in person or over comms.

It's not about filling in blanks or spoonfeeding of any sort. I can very well see what they did, I'm just saying it was poorly executed and the end resolution was mostly a montage of cut scenes that was independent of the previous loops and begs the question of why Stamets didn't just do this once he convinced Michael he was telling the truth.

AMKC wrote: »

I think Mudd only needed to get on board that way once and then after that he could probably transport on board the ship from his own ship even if it was not in the Discovery.

I find that a very threadbare argument. Mudd goes back half an hour just like everyone else. He starts the loop on the ship in that whale with zero control of the Discovery systems. How can something he does in the first loop change anything for him in subsequent loops? They made the point of saying he needs that power source to reset the loop each time, so if he didn't have it in one of the loops, it makes sense he shouldn't have been able to reset the loop.


I think I need to state again... I enjoyed this episode. There was a lot of good in it. However, from the moment it was clear Stamets reveal wasn't the part of some grand con job, it started fall apart for me.