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Jordan Peterson

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Comments

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 9,349 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    Has Peterson been offering advice to Donald Trump?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I only realised after clicking in that this post is a year old but just because it's relevant, this offering came up on my feed last week. I was a bit disturbed as to what Peterson was saying with his Virgin Mother coat in the Musk interview.

    it kind of answers this question too.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 9,349 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    This has been a relatively long running thread, with fits and starts of posts overtime, but nevertheless worth while. Thanks for the vid.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,772 CMod ✭✭✭✭Black Swan


    Jordan Peterson has a new focus during the past few months. Several vids on women ages 18 to 34 being more woke. Is Peterson attempting to create another storm in a teacup to draw attention to himself by trolling young women?

    For example, he claims that in the last 30 years there has been an “increased female domination of the university system,” suggesting this in pejorative terms. He further intimated that this was one of the reasons he left university employment.

    The Chronicle of Higher Education has reported that university enrollments for women in the United States has increased since WW2 to present from the 30 percentiles to over 50 percent. More women than men are now graduating from 4 years degree programs, as well as enrollment and graduation with business majors degrees. Women still lag behind men in the STEM fields, although there has been a gradual increase over time.

    Do these enrollment percentage changes constitute “female domination” in and of itself? Peterson suggests that such domination exists, and that the “female temperament” has affected the “domination of the university system” in woke ways.

    Once again, Peterson committed errors in argument by making broad sweeping generalizations about the “university system” as if they were more homogeneous than different from each other in terms of various statuses: private vs public, secular vs religious, liberal arts emphasis vs STEM, research institutions vs not, etc, etc.

    Furthermore, Peterson has made broad sweeping generalizations about each university within what he calls a system, ignoring the differences between colleges within universities, as well as the multiple and different departments within university colleges.

    Post edited by Black Swan on


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,153 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Is that really a new focus? He's been wailing about women in academia for years now. He even had to shoehorn it into 12 Rules.

    The changes do not constitute "female domination". Peterson is just desperately trying to stay relevance so he can keep the Patreon bucks coming in.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,772 CMod ✭✭✭✭Black Swan


    I see your point. One of his books associates order with men, and chaos with women.

    Today I was surprised to see so many relatively recent Peterson vids and interviews about young women being woke. Perhaps Peterson has been attempting to ride on the Republican and MAGA anti-woke controversy bandwagon occurring during the past couple presidential 2024 campaign years? To sell books, vids, clicks, and his Peterson “university” online?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 9,349 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    Is Trump Dangerous podcast by Peterson.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,153 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    I've no idea what he's on about here:

    I wouldn't be the biggest fan of Richard Dawkins but he's streets ahead of Peterson who insists on rabbiting on and on about dragons for some unfathomable (pardon the pun) reason. He seems to be using mysticism as a veneer to hide his lack of logic for the snake oil he peddles.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,772 CMod ✭✭✭✭Black Swan


    Rowan Williams in the 20 November 2024 Guardian reviewed Jordan Peterson’s We Who Wrestle with God. He summarized Peterson’s work: “A culture warrior out of his depth.”

    Having breezed through several of Peterson’s past books, although not this one yet, Williams’ comment that this work needed some “ruthless editing” would also apply to those I had quickly read. Further, none I found to exhibit “depth” (lobster pseudo science anecdotes, etc).

    Then again in fairness, Peterson’s focus was on the self-help genre, and in particular for a male audience, as opposed to a female one (males associated with order, and females with chaos, etc). Such self-help genre rarely exhibited profound philosophical underpinnings, or “depth” per Williams in his review of this more theological self-help Peterson “adventure.”

    In conclusion, I have just talked myself out of breezing through Peterson’s God book, but you can (should your library have a free copy for checkout). The Williams review might suffice, too.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,153 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    That comment from Williams sums up Peterson perfectly. To be honest, it's well past time we stopped treating him as anything more than an angry man wailing about people not suffering enough.

    For some reason, we've attached this collective sense of importance to him for no discernible reason.

    I thoroughly recommend the Origin Story two-parter on Peterson.

    Either fame or his ideology or both have essentially ruined him as a person. If it weren't for his malevolence, it'd be tragic.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,772 CMod ✭✭✭✭Black Swan


    Peterson (above post): “Life is suffering.” It appeared that Peterson was projecting, as suggested by others. Thanks for the links.




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,153 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Easy to advocate for suffering when you're a multi-millionare shielded from actual suffering.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,267 ✭✭✭zv2


    What Peterson is saying here is that 'predator' is a kind of archetype. 'Dragon' is the generic and individual species are manifestations of this archetype. Similar to universals; 'circle' is a concept and individual objects are instances of it: coin, saucer, discus, beer mat and so on.

    The validity of Peterson's argument lies in arguing, convincingly, that instances such as a lion, have some deeper reality 'predator/dragon' which they manifest. All this rests on successfully arguing that nature is ultimately spiritual and physical instances of nature are as body is to spirit. In other words, Peterson is arguing for the reality of spirit.

    It looks like history is starting up again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,267 ✭✭✭zv2


    "Be yourself" is a fake New Age concept. It is not possible to be yourself in this sense. The self is not a static thing, it flows like a river (it is not possible to step into the same river twice). Our true self is our relationship with the world and since the world is always changing so is the self. So, if you try to be yourself, what are you trying to be? Some foolish concept of who you are? That is static. Taoism says we should flow with the world and that is quite different than some vague notion of our 'self'. (There's an add on tv at the moment for perfume, I think, starring Emma Watson. She says 'I am always different but always myself' There you have it.)

    It looks like history is starting up again.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,153 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    It's not. He's just spouting deranged drivel in an attempt to sound like some kind of intellectual. That's it.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,772 CMod ✭✭✭✭Black Swan


    Your comment “The validity of Peterson’s argument lies in arguing, convincingly, that instances such as a lion, have some deeper reality…” was problematic. The lion was a metaphor, and metaphors were not “reality;” rather, a distortion of reality often used to foster discussion (see Garth Morgan in Images of Organization).

    Certainly, there may be other meanings implied in Peterson’s use, but I failed to see that they “have some deeper reality.” Rather, I found them superficial at first glance, and not “convincingly.”

    There may also be some confounding in Peterson’s rhetorical language uses. For example, was Peterson’s lobster discussions in one of his books meant to be analogous with human behavior, or another use of metaphor, or a very pseudoscientific claim not supported by empirical evidence?




    Post edited by Black Swan on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,267 ✭✭✭zv2


    The world is very much structured in terms of one layer of reality being manifest, by way of metaphor, on another layer of reality. Take the graph of x-squared. On one reality, which you may call mind, x-squared is a purely mathematical concept involving numbers. But it is possible to draw a graph that accurately represents x-squared. How can it be that something abstract and mental (numbers) can be translated into ink on a sheet of paper? This might seem like a trivial question but this translation would not be possible unless there is a natural affinity between mind and space - numbers and ink on a flat page in space. Ink on paper does not look anything like numbers. In fact nothing looks like numbers because they are abstract, but we can make them visible by way of metaphors and symbols.

    Artists routinely work with metaphors. A painting is about something. It is an image or metaphor for a world outside the painting. So the world of emotion and being is expressed as a physical image. Again, how can this be? How is it possible to project one level of reality onto another? How is music possible? How can physical vibrations in the air convey emotion? Where does music come from? Why is there such a harmonious agreement between layers of reality that seem to be entirely different from each other? There must be an overarching nature common to all of them. Peterson is saying that lions and dragons are physical metaphors for something beyond lions and dragons.

    The spiritual argument is that the world is far more complex than our physical senses would have us believe. Most of the universe is outside our physical senses - radio waves, infrared, dark energy, neutrinos, nuclear forces, gamma rays, numbers, logic, set theory etc.

    Post edited by zv2 on

    It looks like history is starting up again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,170 ✭✭✭Joe1919


    I appreciate you drawing attention to the philosophical significance of the above discussion between Peterson and Dawkins. The content of the discussion, on the face of it, looks trivial but I think it has a long history. Plato in his 'theory of forms' believes that 'forms' (universals) have a real existence whereas the 'particulars' are only copies or instances of same. Aristotle seems to have doubts and this difference of opinion is often said to be highlighted in Raphael’s renaissance painting 'The School of Athens'.

    Jumping forward, I think Berthram Russell in his 'Problems of Philosophy' gives universals a sort of real existence rather than 'mental' which I think goes again the normal 'nominalism' that was popular with UK philosophers. I think this caused him problems but I wonder did it help him as a mathematician and his contribution towards set theory?

    Incidently, in my own case, reading Husserl's 'Ideas' has made me very sympathetic to his 'idealism' as well as accepting (like him) that there is no contradiction in being an 'idealist' (so to speak) and accepting that Realism is the natural attitude to take towards the world. You mention Daoism and I was greatly impressed by 'Chuang Tzu' and some of his witty stories. He has taught me that there are different ways of seeing things.(Perspectivism)

    Plato and Aristotle discuss 'forms'? Plato points to the heavens, Aristotle points to earth. (Raphael School of Athens 1511)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,267 ✭✭✭zv2


    Often ideas are held with suspicion because of the way they are expressed and while they may not hold exactly as the philosopher maintains, they may be essentially correct. I think this is the case with universals. Take the universal 'circle'. Instances would include 'coin' 'saucer' 'planet' etc. But if all coins were removed from the world 'circle' would still exist as 'saucer' and if all saucers were removed circle would still exist as 'coin' so this implies that 'circle' is in some way independent of coin and saucer and all particular instances of it. In fact it does exist independently as a mathematical definition x^2 + y^2 = 1.

    It looks like history is starting up again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,170 ✭✭✭Joe1919


    I would tend to agree. The 'universal' just defines the type. We can talk about the type. We can say 3 Dragon plus 4 Dragons equals 7 Dragons and claim its true. But that says nothing about whether Dragons exist or not or what it means for a Dragon to exist. I think Kant calls these analytic propositions e.g."All bachelors are unmarried." All triangles have three sides. i.e. The statements are true because we defined them as true.(tautology?). They really tell us nothing……….

    I would tend to see the 'circle' (as well as all mathematics) as a social construct, a sort of useful tool or model we use to make some kind of sense of the world. I dont think a perfect circle appears anywhere in nature so I guess if there was no people in the world, there would be no circles.

    Post edited by Joe1919 on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,739 ✭✭✭worded


    Some great comedy on Peterson on insta etc



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