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Jordan Peterson

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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,066 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Black Swan


    Archetypes are nonsense on stilts, having no more scientific import than tarot cards or phrenology. Yet Peterson's re-imagining and re-tooling of them through Campbell's mythical tropes (as pointed out by Black Swan) lends a certain panache that unfortunately is capable of fooling many, in his intellectual sleight of hand.
    Furthermore, Peterson was not original when he claimed his inspirations came in a dream: a hopelessly unscientific approach used by Jung.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 8,151 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Fathom


    Point 7 is not outdated science either, but rather pure pseudoscience- Jungian archetypes. It gets negatively mentioned by a lot by people, but is not attacked in the way it should be.
    Agree.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,022 ✭✭✭ AllForIt


    Fathom wrote: »
    Peterson's position.

    Yes, that's what was asked and I answered it I think accurately, if I've taken him up correctly and I think I have.


    Also, Peterson is not anti-feminist, he's anti radical feminist.

    Peterson argues for equality of opportunity but not for equality of outcome.

    I have heard quite a few prominent women complain about gender quotas. They don't think it's right. Mary Rourke would be one who I heard voice opposition to this right-on view.


    I don't think Peterson's opinions on these issues are in any way whacky.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 8,151 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Fathom


    AllForIt wrote: »

    Also, Peterson is not anti-feminist, he's anti radical feminist.
    Not sure he differentiates clearly.
    AllForIt wrote: »
    Peterson argues for equality of opportunity but not for equality of outcome.
    His religious hierarchical paternalism in Maps forms a glass ceiling for women.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,066 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Black Swan


    Fathom wrote: »

    His religious hierarchical paternalism in Maps forms a glass ceiling for women.
    This was one reason why his position on women has been controversial.


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 8,151 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Fathom


    Peterson labeled a "controversy-courting culture warrior" by Vox.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,066 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Black Swan


    Fathom wrote: »
    Peterson labeled a "controversy-courting culture warrior" by Vox.
    It would appear that Peterson does love controversy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 229 ✭✭ Cyclonius


    Fathom wrote: »
    Peterson labeled a "controversy-courting culture warrior" by Vox.

    Vox aren't exactly ideologically neutral themselves, per Media Bias/Fact Check and AllSides. I'm not saying that the description of Peterson is necessarily incorrect, but Vox's slant does need to be highlighted.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 8,151 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Fathom


    Cyclonius wrote: »
    I'm not saying that the description of Peterson is necessarily incorrect, but Vox's slant does need to be highlighted.
    All sources have their target audiences. Their Weberian non-value-free orientation.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,066 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Black Swan


    Fathom wrote: »
    All sources have their target audiences. Their Weberian non-value-free orientation.
    Economy and Society (1922)?


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,181 Charles Ingles


    Used to love Peterson very convincing.
    Them I realised he just a male version of Oprah Winfrey


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 8,151 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Fathom


    Black Swan wrote: »
    Economy and Society (1922)?

    Yes. In translation by Parsons, et al.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,614 ✭✭✭✭ ILoveYourVibes


    Jordan Peterson is not qualified in anyway to lecture in Philosophy. He has zero philosophical background. He doesn't understand philosophy.

    What lectures on is not Philosophy. A course on Philosophy would have no business including him or his work.


    He does have an academic background in Psychology as far as I am aware its the only topic he has taught.



    By the way he also gives lecture on Physics. Jordan Peterson has no background in Physics. He doesn't understand physics.

    I don't know why someone with ZERO education on physics is giving public lectures entitled 'Jordan Peterson on Physics' and charging people to listen to them.



    This is what an ACTUAL physicist has to say about Jordan Peterson's 'RESEARCH IN PHYSICS'.

    I have a degree in law and philosophy its insulting to us to say this is philosophy.

    He has ZERO to do with philosophy.

    He made a hashed explanation of what postmodernism was and when an ACTUAL professor in philosophy corrected him in his technical mistakes his fanboys lost it.

    If you want to study philosophy you have no business listening to him unless its on your own free time.

    If you are a serious philosophy student and some of what he has said on postmodernism sinks in to your brain and you put it in an essay or an exam YOU WILL FAIL.

    Obv I am not qualified to advise any physics students..but i gather his lecture on that are rubbish too.

    Now NONE of this has anything to do with whether you agree with him or not. I am not venturing an opinion on whether i agree with him or not.

    I am certain he has a lot of interesting things to say on his actual topic of expertise which is psychology.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,066 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Black Swan


    He made a hashed explanation of what postmodernism was and when an ACTUAL professor in philosophy corrected him in his technical mistakes his fanboys lost it.
    Agree.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,614 ✭✭✭✭ ILoveYourVibes


    Marries the terms post modernism and Marxism.
    There are two meanings of the term Post Modernism. One is a period in time after WW2. In this sense Post -Modernism is like 'The Enlightenment' 'or the renaissance'.

    But Jordan Peterson has said that is NOT what he means. Which is a pity because then it might make sense.

    Philosophical Post Modernism is what Peterson says he was talking about.
    It’s very very vague. And it’s the rejection of the idea that you can actually 'know' it’s a form of scepticism.

    Modernism is faith in certainty Post modernism is denying such certainty is possible. It's talked about Derrida and Foucault.
    Now I don't want to talk about Derrida because I hate him. But he does bring up a point about Post Modernism and some issues with it. Derrida was lambasted for lack of 'rigour.' He is criticized because his work was too vague and almost artistic. And sometimes Post modernism is also. Why ? Well simply put scepticism about everything about every big idea or theory doesn't present its own idea beyond that. It REMAINS vague. You could say it’s not a theory but constant uncertainty.

    Marxism on the other hand is a theory that wants to present itself with certainty. It has VERY distinct groups the proletariat and the bourgeoisie etc. Postmodernism would ask ‘can we really be certain these two groups exist?’ Is society not more fluid etc etc? Marxism wishes to present these groups as a fixed certainty. There is even Marxist sociology.

    So with postmodernism being pure scepticism etc ...and Marxism being a theory and manifesto based on firm ideas etc you can see why they just can't go together.


    You can also see that its clear Jordan Peterson has NO idea what post modernism is. It’s unlikely he has even read about it from a real philosopher. I think he just heard the word and ASSUMED he knew what it meant. That is the only conclusion I can come to.

    Therefore marrying the two terms post modernism and Marxism is very difficult and makes no sense.

    I think Contrapoints makes a great analyses of Jordan Peterson.


    She makes the point that all of his 'Self help' is really a Trojan horse for his 'reactionary political agenda.'

    He incorrectly uses terms that are very specifically defined in the philosophical community for vague leftist ideas.


    And for anyone studying post modernism she gives you a good basic intro into what it actually is.

    This is titled 'Jordan Peterson' Its really a video about philosophical postmodernism.



    Contrapoints references Foucault READ HIM don't read Derrida! She's right **** Derrida! You could also read Richard Rorty and Kierkegaard. on post modernism.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭ friendlyfun


    I find his behaviour a bit bizzare. Like there's a video of him crying about the loss of liberty.

    In another interview he shouted "Gotcha!"at someone he was debating. He could be the smartest man but he's quite immature in his behaviour.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,066 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Black Swan


    Philosophical Post Modernism is what Peterson says he was talking about.
    It’s very very vague.
    Indeed. When Peterson steps away from psychology, he fails. And even in psychology his Maps book was in error, when he treated the left brain-right brain metaphor as if it was a scientific discovery, rather than a mere metaphor to foster discussion. As noted elsewhere, Garth Morgan in Images of Organisation cautions about metaphors being useful for discussion, but not to be taken literally, rather being distortions of reality.

    Modernism is faith in certainty Post modernism is denying such certainty is possible. It's talked about Derrida and Foucault. Now I don't want to talk about Derrida because I hate him. But he does bring up a point about Post Modernism and some issues with it. Derrida was lambasted for lack of 'rigour.' He is criticized because his work was too vague and almost artistic.
    Jacques Derrida has been labeled as a postmodern philosopher, but he does not have a formally constructed philosophy; consequently, was he a philosopher? I do not consider him a philosopher, rather a philosophical methodologist, with deconstruction as his method. His methods have been useful when designing theoretical frameworks for research studies (e.g., dichotomy cautions, signature, the "other," etc.), although I find him a hard read. Comparatively speaking, Peterson was so superficial and misleading that I found him useless in my work.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,614 ✭✭✭✭ ILoveYourVibes


    Black Swan wrote: »
    Indeed. When Peterson steps away from psychology, he fails. And even in psychology his Maps book was in error, when he treated the left brain-right brain metaphor as if it was a scientific discovery, rather than a mere metaphor to foster discussion. As noted elsewhere, Garth Morgan in Images of Organisation cautions about metaphors being useful for discussion, but not to be taken literally, rather being distortions of reality.



    Jacques Derrida has been labeled as a postmodern philosopher, but he does not have a formally constructed philosophy; consequently, was he a philosopher? I do not consider him a philosopher, rather a philosophical methodologist, with deconstruction as his method. His methods have been useful when designing theoretical frameworks for research studies (e.g., dichotomy cautions, signature, the "other," etc.), although I find him a hard read. Comparatively speaking, Peterson was so superficial and misleading that I found him useless in my work.

    A lot of people don't consider Derrida to be a philosopher at all. I think the 'salon' or group of people in France he was surrounded by had a lot of contacts to promote him.

    It became like this epic battle between Sartre and Derrida.

    No one can understand what derrida means. Just the methods he used i am not even certain he came up with them I mean can you honestly say Derrida came up with Deconstruction? It kind of had to be around before then. And he doesn't call it a method himself it says it can't be ...so...i dunno.

    If Derrida is a philosopher he is a very poor scholar.

    I can't understand him anyway.:( it was like he was on drugs.

    And Nietzsche used deconstruction and i know derrida says he was influenced by him etc but i don't think he actually added anything of value to that method.

    He is a philosopher just not a great one. But then what do i know?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,066 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Black Swan


    Just the methods he used i am not even certain he came up with them I mean can you honestly say Derrida came up with Deconstruction? It kind of had to be around before then. And he doesn't call it a method himself it says it can't be ...so...i dunno.
    In addition to his French appointment, Derrida also had a shared appointment at my university until his 2004 death. He gave seminars in English mixed with French, and our library has been filled with his collections. So from a utility standpoint to include him in my RFP citations goes well with my university affiliation, although as you suggest, deconstruction, other than its label for the past 40 years, probably can in part be attributed to earlier philosophical positions. Derrida does use the word deconstruction in several of his works. And you are correct that he does not call it a method, or himself a methodologist. Whereas Derrida may be a bit controversial in narrow philosophical circles, Peterson has loudly beat his drum across social media, which has benefited his book sales.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,614 ✭✭✭✭ ILoveYourVibes


    Black Swan wrote: »
    In addition to his French appointment, Derrida also had a shared appointment at my university until his 2004 death. He gave seminars in English mixed with French, and our library has been filled with his collections. So from a utility standpoint to include him in my RFP citations goes well with my university affiliation, although as you suggest, deconstruction, other than its label for the past 40 years, probably can in part be attributed to earlier philosophical positions. Derrida does use the word deconstruction in several of his works. And you are correct that he does not call it a method, or himself a methodologist. Whereas Derrida may be a bit controversial in narrow philosophical circles, Peterson has loudly beat his drum across social media, which has benefited his book sales.


    Wow i wonder what he was like did you meet him?

    Its nice to have this discourse with you:)

    I haven't really talked about philosophy in a while. :)


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 8,151 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Fathom


    Black Swan wrote: »
    Whereas Derrida may be a bit controversial in narrow philosophical circles, Peterson has loudly beat his drum across social media, which has benefited his book sales.
    Jordan controversies = book sales.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 8,151 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Fathom


    Black Swan wrote: »
    Indeed. When Peterson steps away from psychology, he fails. And even in psychology his Maps book was in error, when he treated the left brain-right brain metaphor as if it was a scientific discovery, rather than a mere metaphor to foster discussion. As noted elsewhere, Garth Morgan in Images of Organisation cautions about metaphors being useful for discussion, but not to be taken literally, rather being distortions of reality.
    Lobster metaphor too. Jordan Peterson ContraPoints vid included in ILoveYourVibes post alluded to this. Cool vid!


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,176 ✭✭✭ jackboy


    I find his behaviour a bit bizzare. Like there's a video of him crying about the loss of liberty.

    In another interview he shouted "Gotcha!"at someone he was debating. He could be the smartest man but he's quite immature in his behaviour.

    Did he really shout “Gotcha”, or did he just say the word calmly. In any debate I’ve seen him in he clearly showed greater maturity than his detractors.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,614 ✭✭✭✭ ILoveYourVibes


    jackboy wrote: »
    Did he really shout “Gotcha”, or did he just say the word calmly. In any debate I’ve seen him in he clearly showed greater maturity than his detractors.

    I would define it better as 'calmness'. He lacks intellectual maturity though.

    Some of the greatest philosophers were very emotionally immature. Wittgenstein for example! Total BABY!





    This was the debate. Both parties seem calm and cordial.

    Both parties seem to be intellectually grasping though.

    Peterson should stay in his intellectual lane.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,176 ✭✭✭ jackboy



    Both parties seem to be intellectually grasping though.

    Peterson should stay in his intellectual lane.

    What is his intellectual lane? Most of what he says is clear and simple. That is why it is powerful and very difficult to dispute in a debate.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 29,699 CMod ✭✭✭✭ ancapailldorcha


    I've been on the fence about Peterson for some time now. I've enjoyed some of his videos where he talks about depression, stress, anxiety, etc... I'm a lot less keen on his political views, particularly his denial of climate change. I get the impression that he feels that the way he lived his life, ie marrying his childhood sweetheard, growing up in a rural Canada community and being Christian is superior to others and to that he end he is pushing a traditionally conservative, nuclear family-based & Christian ideology. There isn't anything wrong with this but he seems predisposed to prevaricating when pressed about it on occasion.

    I'm about 40% of the way through 12 rules for life and I have to say that I find it quite disappointing. I've no idea where this idea that Peterson is a great thinker or that the lavish praise which has been heaped on this book have come from. He spends the first chapter wittering on and on about Lobsters only to conclude that people who let others take advantage of or oppress them need to stand up for themselves and that women like confident men. In the second chapter, he asserts that we don't take proper care of ourselves because we feel unworthy to walk with God due to the sin committed in the Garden of Eden. It's at best highly reductionist reasoning and is clearly intended to push this agenda, freed from interjections from interviewers. It's a pamphlet that's been padded out with then intention of becoming a bestseller. Were it not for his popularity online, there's no way this would have survived a publisher's editorial process.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,614 ✭✭✭✭ ILoveYourVibes


    jackboy wrote: »
    What is his intellectual lane? Most of what he says is clear and simple. That is why it is powerful and very difficult to dispute in a debate.


    Everything he says regarding philosophy is incorrect.

    Whatever his lane is its not philosophy. According to physicists its not physics either.

    He isn't difficult to dispute in debate on philosophy as contrapoints demonstrated. He just never debates philosophers.

    He debates journalists who obv haven't a clue or Ben Shapiro.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,614 ✭✭✭✭ ILoveYourVibes


    I've been on the fence about Peterson for some time now. I've enjoyed some of his videos where he talks about depression, stress, anxiety, etc... I'm a lot less keen on his political views, particularly his denial of climate change. I get the impression that he feels that the way he lived his life, ie marrying his childhood sweetheard, growing up in a rural Canada community and being Christian is superior to others and to that he end he is pushing a traditionally conservative, nuclear family-based & Christian ideology. There isn't anything wrong with this but he seems predisposed to prevaricating when pressed about it on occasion.

    I'm about 40% of the way through 12 rules for life and I have to say that I find it quite disappointing. I've no idea where this idea that Peterson is a great thinker or that the lavish praise which has been heaped on this book have come from. He spends the first chapter wittering on and on about Lobsters only to conclude that people who let others take advantage of or oppress them need to stand up for themselves and that women like confident men. In the second chapter, he asserts that we don't take proper care of ourselves because we feel unworthy to walk with God due to the sin committed in the Garden of Eden. It's at best highly reductionist reasoning and is clearly intended to push this agenda, freed from interjections from interviewers. It's a pamphlet that's been padded out with then intention of becoming a bestseller. Were it not for his popularity online, there's no way this would have survived a publisher's editorial process.


    Maybe he says things that have basis in psychology that are true but are uncomfortable. I am not knowledgeable about psychology. He is. What do i know about psychology?

    I know philosophy though. Enough to know at a glance that its doubtful he has every read a philosophy book. He name drops philosophers he can't understand and hasn't read. Its really like someone going to the ballet and saying my favorite dancer is Puccini.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,066 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Black Swan


    Jordan Peterson on why Chaos is Symbolically Feminine in terms of archetypes and brain architecture as contained in his 12 Rules book was highly problematic, as was Peterson's continued claim that the left-brain right-brain comparison was a scientific discovery beyond reasonable doubt, and continues to be a foundation argument for Peterson in both Maps and 12 Rules; rather than merely a metaphor, which, as a metaphor should not be taken literally as it was a distortion of reality. Further he draws from Disney movies for additional support of this questionable positions regarding chaos being symbolically feminine referencing the "evil queen" as if popular anecdotal support from movie goers added additional foundation for his feminine chaos claim.


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 8,151 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Fathom


    Black Swan wrote: »
    Jordan Peterson on why Chaos is Symbolically Feminine in terms of archetypes and brain architecture as contained in his 12 Rules book was highly problematic, as was Peterson's continued claim that the left-brain right-brain comparison was a scientific discovery beyond reasonable doubt, and continues to be a foundation argument for Peterson in both Maps and 12 Rules; rather than merely a metaphor, which, as a metaphor should not be taken literally as it was a distortion of reality. Further he draws from Disney movies for additional support of this questionable positions regarding chaos being symbolically feminine referencing the "evil queen" as if popular anecdotal support from movie goers added additional foundation for his feminine chaos claim.
    Peterson's 12 Rules for Life has subtitle: "An Antidote to Chaos." What does this subtitle suggest about Peterson's meaning when he contends chaos is symbolically feminine?


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