Certificate

metricspaces

I am getting a few electrical jobs done and wondering if I need a certificate from the electrician?

The work I want done is a flood light front and back of house, and an external socket.

• The flood light at the front, the electrician is taking the power from supply in front bedroom.
• The rear flood light, he said he'll take the power from the fuse board (as it's at the back door).
• The external socket, he is taking power from existing power supply to sockets inside the house.

I couldn't figure out from this site here if the work I want done needs a certificate http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Topics/Electricity/Inspection_and_Testing/Works_Needing_Certification/.

2011

It sounds like the work you are having done falls under the definition of “minor electrical works”, if so it does not require a certification and does not have to be carried out by a Registered Electrical Contractor. There is more information about this and links in the forum charter above.

Sleeper12

Just because you don't have to use an REC doesn't mean that you should.

We can be talking life or death with electricity. Regardless of the law I'd be very careful whole I let work on my electricity system

meercat

2011 wrote: »

It sounds like the work you are having done falls under the definition of “minor electrical works”, if so it does not require a certification and does not have to be carried out by a Registered Electrical Contractor. There is more information about this and links in the forum charter above.

Not sure if you're correct
He's installing a new circuit by taking power from fuse board for back light
This needs a rec and certificate imho

Bruthal

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Just because you don't have to use an REC doesn't mean that you should.

We can be talking life or death with electricity. Regardless of the law I'd be very careful whole I let work on my electricity system

All the same, id rather work on my own one, than let anyone else at it.

Sleeper12

Bruthal wrote:

All the same, id rather work on my own one, than let anyone else at it.

Hey I'd be happy for you to rewire my house. I'd sleep at night knowing it was done right. With or without a cert. It's up to the homeowner to make sure that they have quality tradesmen at all times.

Bruthal

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Hey I'd be happy for you to rewire my house. I'd sleep at night knowing it was done right. With or without a cert. It's up to the homeowner to make sure that they have quality tradesmen at all times.

Ill let you put in the shower so:D

metricspaces

Thanks for the replies. The electrician is a REC. I was just wondering if I need to get a certificate. Sounds like no need?

I had a look at the links in forum charter but I couldn't see a definition/list of what “minor electrical works” are. Maybe I missed it. Where can I find this info?

Why would a qualified electrician working on domestic jobs not be a REC? It sounds like they'd be excluding themselves from the vast majority of electrical works, so it seems a bit odd.

2011

meercat wrote: »

Not sure if you're correct
He's installing a new circuit by taking power from fuse board for back light
This needs a rec and certificate imho

My mistake, you are 100% correct.
Apologies OP, the new circuit means that a REC should be used and a certificate issued.

metricspaces

I checked the forum charter again. It says "Further clarification on minor electrical works was obtained by email from CER can be seen here.". The link referenced does not work for me.

Does a new circuit mean that there will be a separate switch on the fuse board for the light on the back of the house? And if there's isn't a separate switch then no new circut.

Risteard81

It's unclear whether this is a new circuit, or whether it is being added to an existing lighting circuit at the distribution board. The latter would technically be minor works although not very different to the former.

The safest advice would be to use a REC. You have a right to request a certificate for minor works if you want one, even though it is not a requirement.

EHP

metricspaces wrote:

The work I want done is a flood light front and back of house, and an external socket. The flood light at the front, the electrician is taking the power from supply in front bedroom.The rear flood light, he said he'll take the power from the fuse board (as it's at the back door).The external socket, he is taking power from existing power supply to sockets inside the house. I couldn't figure out from this site here if the work I want done needs a certificate

If he has to remove the cover from the fuse board to connect the light he has to issue a cert 3.

Stoner

Bruthal wrote:

All the same, id rather work on my own one, than let anyone else at it.

Most electricians prefer when I do the work in my own house too.

#fussyfecker

metricspaces

EHP wrote: »

metricspaces wrote:

The work I want done is a flood light front and back of house, and an external socket. The flood light at the front, the electrician is taking the power from supply in front bedroom.The rear flood light, he said he'll take the power from the fuse board (as it's at the back door).The external socket, he is taking power from existing power supply to sockets inside the house. I couldn't figure out from this site here if the work I want done needs a certificate

If he has to remove the cover from the fuse board to connect the light he has to issue a cert 3.

The work has been done. See pic below of how the wires is coming from the fuse box to the outside light. The electrician had the plastic casing for the fuse box off. But there is no new switch for this light on the fuse box. Electrician says I don't need a cert. Am I ok here?

This is a new build house. The electrician who did this work is the electrician who did the electrics in the original build. So I presume he's a REC.


free picture hosting site

EHP

metricspaces wrote:

The work has been done. See pic below of how the wires is coming from the fuse box to the outside light. The electrician had the plastic casing for the fuse box off. But there is no new switch for this light on the fuse box. Electrician says I don't need a cert. Am I ok here?

See below part of the definition of restricted works.

"the modification, installation or replacement of a Distribution Board including customer tails on either side of the Main Protective Device"

"Restricted Electrical Works under the Restricted Electrical Works under the Electricity Regulation Act 1999, as amended, are defined as electrical works that can only be carried out and must be certified by a Registered Electrical Contractor (REC). Restricted Electrical Works encompass most electrical works in a domestic premises"

In my opinion your board has been modified.

metricspaces

EHP wrote: »

In my opinion your board has been modified.

Thanks. So should I go back to him and ask for a cert 3?

What do I need the cert 3 for?

I don't want to appear overly fussy. Is a cert 3 is something that a homeowner would normally expect to receive from the electrician without asking (if the electrician has made changes to distribution board, as in my case)?

Risteard81

EHP wrote: »

In my opinion your board has been modified.

If he has connected into an existing circuit then I cannot see how you come to that conclusion. As I say, however, the safest advice would be to use a REC and request a certificate for the works if you want one. (The REC is obliged to provide one if you so request it.)

metricspaces

Risteard81 wrote: »

If he has connected into an existing circuit then )

Thanks. Am I correct in thinking that if he created a new circuit there would be a new switch on the distribution board for this new circuit?

2011

Risteard81 wrote: »

If he has connected into an existing circuit then I cannot see how you come to that conclusion.

Are you serious???
The picture says it all. Whether the cable was added to an existing circuit or not is irrelevant, work has been carried out on the distribution board, therefore it has been modified, hence a very is obligatory, no excuses, end of.

As I say, however, the safest advice would be to use a REC

Although as can be seen choose your REC carefully as the quality of work can be disappointing.

Risteard81

Connecting into an existing circuit via an MCB is modification of the circuit and not modification of the distribution board. Can you genuinely not understand this? There is no evidence to suggest that such works meet the legal definition of Restricted Electrical Works but perhaps you feel competent in legislative matters to decree otherwise.

That didn't alter my advice to use a Registered Electrical Contractor and request a certificate anyway though.

meercat

I have to agree here(with 2011)
A new circuit is installed irrespective of whether or not he connected it to a separate mcb and work is done on the distribution board so a Cert should be issued

Question to the op
Where did he fit the isolation switch for the new outside light?

metricspaces

meercat wrote: »

I have to agree here(with 2011)
Question to the op
Where did he fit the isolation switch for the new outside light?

The isolation switch is underneath the distribution board.

Lots of conflicting opinions here. Wondering are posters of differing opinions all REC's, could you let me know please?

Surely this is black/white, is it not a straightforward enough piece of work he did?

metricspaces

Risteard81 wrote: »

There is no evidence to suggest that such works meet the legal definition of Restricted Electrical Works

That didn't alter my advice to use a Registered Electrical Contractor and request a certificate anyway though.

I'm confused by this post. Are these two paragraphs not contradictory?

I thought I could only get a Cert 3 if Restricted Electrical Works were carried out?

So if you say Restricted Electrical Works were not carried out then why would I ask for a Cert 3 when one is not required? I'll just be told one is not required, so why ask?

metricspaces

2011 wrote: »

Although as can be seen choose your REC carefully as the quality of work can be disappointing.

What do you find disappointing about the quality of the work in my photo? PM me if you prefer, I'm no expert so would like to know

meercat

metricspaces wrote: »

The isolation switch is underneath the distribution board.

Lots of conflicting opinions here. Wondering are posters of differing opinions all REC's, could you let me know please?

Surely this is black/white, is it not a straightforward enough piece of work he did?

I am a rec. if any client requests a certificate then I will provide one whether or not I'm required to by my regulatory body

Sleeper12

metricspaces wrote:

So if you say Restricted Electrical Works were not carried out then why would I ask for a Cert 3 when one is not required? I'll just be told one is not required, so why ask?

Any work carried out on the fusebox is restricted AFAIK. It's illegal for me to even take the cover off the fusebox let alone work on it.

metricspaces

meercat wrote: »

metricspaces wrote: »

The isolation switch is underneath the distribution board.

Lots of conflicting opinions here. Wondering are posters of differing opinions all REC's, could you let me know please?

Surely this is black/white, is it not a straightforward enough piece of work he did?

I am a rec. if any client requests a certificate then I will provide one whether or not I'm required to by my regulatory body

Thanks! You were asking where the isolation switch was. Was there a reason? Does where it's located sound ok (below the distribution board)?

meercat

metricspaces wrote: »

Thanks! You were asking where the isolation switch was. Was there a reason? Does where it's located sound ok (below the distribution board)?

Just checking if one was installed

2011

Risteard81 wrote: »

Connecting into an existing circuit via an MCB is modification of the circuit and not modification of the distribution board.

So you agree it is a modification, that is a start. This modification occurs in the board and involves connection to multiple parts of the board, an MCB, neutral bar and earth bar. Therefore it is a modification to the board, simple as that.

If we were to follow your logic anyone can work on a distribution board once they connect onto an existing circuit. The alarm installers will think all of their birthdays have come at once! They refuse to even remove the cover of a board, this is why REC's frequently leave a spur outlet for them.

There is no evidence to suggest that such works meet the legal definition of Restricted Electrical Works but perhaps you feel competent in legislative matters to decree otherwise.

No evidence??? :eek:
Seriously?
Perhaps you should read EHP's post:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105075429&postcount=15

Bruthal

Risteard81 wrote: »

Connecting into an existing circuit via an MCB is modification of the circuit and not modification of the distribution board. Can you genuinely not understand this? There is no evidence to suggest that such works meet the legal definition of Restricted Electrical Works but perhaps you feel competent in legislative matters to decree otherwise.

I guess then the non REC can wire 5 or 6 more lights and switches in, and its perfectly ok once they dont connect to a spare MCB.

Or will a spare existing MCB also mean the board was not altered?

EHP

metricspaces wrote:

Thanks. So should I go back to him and ask for a cert 3?

Yes ask for a cert 3 he should have issued it even if you didn't ask for it. If he refuses you can make a complaint to RECI as he is a REC they will follow up with him.

metricspaces wrote:

What do I need the cert 3 for?

You don't need a cert 3 until something goes wrong and then you have a paper trail. The Cert should insure your REC has completed all the necessary testing on the circuits he has installed.

Risteard81 wrote:

If he has connected into an existing circuit then I cannot see how you come to that conclusion.

Definition of modify

"to change somewhat the form or qualities of; alter partially; amend"

Again in my opinion that board has been modified. When in doubt I always ask what I think a judge would think.

metricspaces wrote:

Lots of conflicting opinions here. Wondering are posters of differing opinions all REC's, could you let me know please?

Yes I'm a REC and also have been advised by Safe Electric Inspectors that once you have to remove the cover off a board it is restricted works.

metricspaces wrote:

I thought I could only get a Cert 3 if Restricted Electrical Works were carried out?

If restricted or controlled works are carried out the REC has to issue a Cert.

If minor works are completed a cert only has to be issued if requested by the customer, a REC can't refuse to issue a cert for works they carried out but will charge extra for the cert as the testing and paperwork will add time to any job.

Stoner

Bruthal wrote:

I guess then the non REC can wire 5 or 6 more lights and switches in, and its perfectly ok once they dont connect to a spare MCB.

So if I had a radial circuit with five points on it, I could add 3 or 4 on one at a time as long as I cabled them all back individually opened up the board and hooked them all into the one MCB one at a time.

Is that the logic here or am I missing something?

Risteard81

meercat wrote: »

A new circuit is installed irrespective of whether or not he connected it to a separate mcb

Only if you ignore the definition of a circuit given within Part 2 of ET101: "Part of an electrical installation supplied from the same origin and protected against overcurrents by a single protective device."
By connecting into the same protective device, it is by definition one and the same circuit. This cannot be disputed.

Risteard81

metricspaces wrote: »

So if you say Restricted Electrical Works were not carried out then why would I ask for a Cert 3 when one is not required? I'll just be told one is not required, so why ask?

I never stated that Restricted Works weren't carried out - I simple pointed out that it is unclear whether the works would meet the legal definition of Restricted Works. Others pretend that they are infallible and that they know how a court would rule.

However I did clearly state numerous times that you have a right to request a certificate even for minor works, and that if requested the REC must provide one.

And yes, I am a RECI REC as well as an NICEIC Approved Contractor.

metricspaces

Thanks for all the replies. I'm going to go back to him and ask for a cert 3. I wanted to be sure it wasn't something unreasonable to ask for and end up being an awkward customer. Hopefully he'll give me the cert 3.

If I understand from the above posts, if the electrician believes the work he carried out was not Restricted Work then he'll probably look to charge me for a cert 3 as it involves carrying out some tests?

If the elecrtician agrees it was Restricted Works then he must supply a cert 3 free of charge. Is my understanding correct here?

EHP

Risteard81 wrote:

Only if you ignore the definition of a circuit given within Part 2 of ET101: "Part of an electrical installation supplied from the same origin and protected against overcurrents by a single protective device." By connecting into the same protective device, it is by definition one and the same circuit. This cannot be disputed.

The definition of a Distribution Board is;

"An assembly of protective devices, including two or more fuses or circuit breakers, arranged for the distribution of electrical energy to final circuits or to other distribution boards."

I would say that all devices within the board form part of the board so once touched the board is modified.

metricspaces wrote:

If the elecrtician agrees it was Restricted Works then he must supply a cert 3 free of charge. Is my understanding correct here?

If he had supplied it from the start he could of charged for it as he legally has to supply it, now that he hasn't supplied it he is liable for disciplinary action from RECI should you report him. The ball is in your court now.

metricspaces

EHP wrote: »

If he had supplied it from the start he could of charged for it as he legally has to supply it, now that he hasn't supplied it he is liable for disciplinary action from RECI should you report him. The ball is in your court now.

Thanks! So I can always ask for a "Certificate" when an electrician carries out work in my house (regardless of whether it is Restricted Work).

In the case of non-Restricted Work I just get a normal "Certificate".

In the case of Restricted Work I must be provided with a "Certificate 3" (llike this here from HSA site)

So I guess I can ask for a "Certificate 3", if the electrician doesn't agree it requires one he'll just provide me a normal "Certificate". Is he legally obliged to supply a certificate for non-Restricted Work?

EHP

metricspaces wrote:

In the case of non-Restricted Work I just get a normal "Certificate".

metricspaces wrote:

In the case of Restricted Work I must be provided with a "Certificate 3" (l

In both cases you will get a Cert 3

Bruthal

Stoner wrote: »

So if I had a radial circuit with five points on it, I could add 3 or 4 on one at a time as long as I cabled them all back individually opened up the board and hooked them all into the one MCB one at a time.

Is that the logic here or am I missing something?

I meant if a new group of lights were wired back to DB and connected to MCB which already supplied other lights, then it seems that is not a modification of the DB according to some, or one at least.

Poster said the DB was not modified by connecting new wiring to existing circuit within the DB.


Bit bizarre and strange really. Which tells it's own story.

Risteard81

metricspaces wrote: »

If I understand from the above posts, if the electrician believes the work he carried out was not Restricted Work then he'll probably look to charge me for a cert 3 as it involves carrying out some tests?

If the elecrtician agrees it was Restricted Works then he must supply a cert 3 free of charge. Is my understanding correct here?

The work always involves "carrying out some tests" (in addition to inspection). Even minor works need to be safe. It will involve certification and administration that wouldn't otherwise exist, however.

As to whether he ever has to provide a certificate "free of charge" is a different matter - he can charge for whatever he wants, but if he quoted you a final price for a job which involved Controlled or Restricted Works then certification would certainly make up part of that job.

Risteard81

EHP wrote: »

Risteard81 wrote:

Only if you ignore the definition of a circuit given within Part 2 of ET101: "Part of an electrical installation supplied from the same origin and protected against overcurrents by a single protective device." By connecting into the same protective device, it is by definition one and the same circuit. This cannot be disputed.

The definition of a Distribution Board is;

"An assembly of protective devices, including two or more fuses or circuit breakers, arranged for the distribution of electrical energy to final circuits or to other distribution boards."

I would say that all devices within the board form part of the board so once touched the board is modified.

metricspaces wrote:

If the elecrtician agrees it was Restricted Works then he must supply a cert 3 free of charge. Is my understanding correct here?

If he had supplied it from the start he could of charged for it as he legally has to supply it, now that he hasn't supplied it he is liable for disciplinary action from RECI should you report him. The ball is in your court now.

A distribution board is modified if you replace, add or remove devices from within it. Connecting cables into an existing circuit (by definition) within a DB would not, in my opinion, be modification of the DB. Altering an existing circuit must be minor works. (In IET Regs the actual definition of minor works are works not involving the provision of a new circuit. Unfortunately the ETCI Rules are not so clear, instead citing "examples" of minor works.)

I have proven through ET101 definitions, however, that it is indeed the modification of an existing circuit and not the provision of a new circuit.

Risteard81

Bruthal wrote: »

Stoner wrote: »

So if I had a radial circuit with five points on it, I could add 3 or 4 on one at a time as long as I cabled them all back individually opened up the board and hooked them all into the one MCB one at a time.

Is that the logic here or am I missing something?

Poster said the DB was not modified by connecting new wiring to existing circuit within the DB.

Bit bizarre and strange really. Which tells it's own story.

What tells its own story is how opinionated you are. How has adding into existing circuits involved modification of the DISTRIBUTION BOARD - NOT OF THE FINAL CIRCUIT OR THE ELECTRICAL INSTALLATION?

What qualifies you (or others such as 2011) to always pronounce infallible statements of doctrine on here? In fact 2011 is not an REC. Maybe you are or are not. The point is your opinions are not the only valid ones. Legal questions will always, ultimately, be answered by the courts and not infallible moderators on a forum.

Bruthal

Risteard81 wrote: »

What tells its own story is how opinionated you are.

Don't be afraid to have your own ones now..

EHP

Risteard81 wrote:

I have proven through ET101 definitions, however, that it is indeed the modification of an existing circuit and not the provision of a new circuit.

I would say anything you add or take within the board is a modification of the board and I would think RECI would have the same view, maybe it's time to ask them for clarification.

metricspaces

Bruthal wrote: »

Poster said the DB was not modified by connecting new wiring to existing circuit within the DB.

Bit bizarre and strange really. Which tells it's own story.

I've no expertise in this area. I don't know exactly what the electrician did. But I do no there is no new switch in the DB for my exterior light. So I assumed based on this that there is no new circuit. Is this assumption correct?

When someone says the work is "disappointing" or "bizarre and strange" without clarifying why, it is hard for me to understand why you have these opinions so it would be really helpful if you could explain.

The reason why the electrician took the power supply from the DB is because it is the closest area to get power from, caused the minimal amount of damage to inside the house, and has the least amount of wiring showing.

Risteard81

metricspaces wrote: »

But I do no there is no new switch in the DB for my exterior light. So I assumed based on this that there is no new circuit. Is this assumption correct?

If you are correct in stating that the wiring has been connected into an existing protective device then you are correct in stating that, by definition - as proven by me through the Definitions section in Part 2 of the ETCI National Rules for Electrical Installations, a new circuit has not been created. The issue of whether this comes within the definition of Restricted Electrical Works or Minor Works is clearly debateable (although some seem to pretend that it isn't).

metricspaces

EHP wrote: »

I would think RECI would have the same view, maybe it's time to ask them for clarification.

I contacted https://safeelectric.ie/contact-us/ and they said they don't answer questions to customers, that I just have to ask my electrician and if I'm not happy with his answer to ask another electrician. Not very useful for the customer!

Risteard81

EHP wrote: »

Risteard81 wrote:

I have proven through ET101 definitions, however, that it is indeed the modification of an existing circuit and not the provision of a new circuit.

I would say anything you add or take within the board is a modification of the board and I would think RECI would have the same view, maybe it's time to ask them for clarification.

Certainly you could ask RECI, although it must be remembered that RECI's opinion is also an opinion, as would be the CRU's (the new name for the CER).

Ultimately interpretation of legislation can only be decided by the courts.

Risteard81

metricspaces wrote: »

EHP wrote: »

I would think RECI would have the same view, maybe it's time to ask them for clarification.

I contacted https://safeelectric.ie/contact-us/ and they said they don't answer questions to customers, that I just have to ask my electrician and if I'm not happy with his answer to ask another electrician. Not very useful for the customer!

There really isn't any reason for you to contact RECI. As I said, if you want a certificate for the work (and I salute you for wanting certification for work) then ask for one. The REC must provide a certificate if requested.

Just tell him that even for minor works you have a right to request a certificate, and that if so requested it must be provided. This is clear from all relevant materials produced by both the CRU/CER and RECI.

EHP

metricspaces wrote:

and they said they don't answer questions to customers, that I just have to ask my electrician and if I'm not happy with his answer to ask another electrician. Not very useful for the customer!

Then contact them and tell them a REC completed restricted works in your home and didn't certify the works. They should then send the local inspector out and if deemed restricted works he will contact the REC and request he completes the work.

Risteard81 wrote:

Certainly you could ask RECI, although it must be remembered that RECI's opinion is also an opinion, as would be the CRU's (the new name for the CER).

When dealing with a REC RECI have more than an opinion as they have there own disciplinary procedures where they can remove a REC from being registered. The CRU can prosecute if in their opinion the rules haven't been followed then I guess it's down to the judges opinion.

2011

Risteard81 wrote: »

What qualifies you (or others such as 2011) to always pronounce infallible statements of doctrine on here?

What qualifies me? My ability to use a phone.
I rang a very helpful RECI inspector that was recommended by CER to answer queries raised on this site in relation to restricted works. This inspector confirmed that work must be certified without question.