Aer Lingus terms and conditions

Mebuntu

Threat to those shiny new A321's:

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/aer-lingus-warns-pay-claims-could-put-1bn-strategy-at-risk-36206180.html

This is what happens when you permit greedy unions to be involved with your company.

Bussywussy

Mebuntu wrote: »

Threat to those shiny new A321's:

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/aer-lingus-warns-pay-claims-could-put-1bn-strategy-at-risk-36206180.html

This is what happens when you permit greedy unions to be involved with your company.

Greedy unions,good one....the pay claim for some sections isn't half of what it should be...

kona

Mebuntu wrote: »

Threat to those shiny new A321's:

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/aer-lingus-warns-pay-claims-could-put-1bn-strategy-at-risk-36206180.html

This is what happens when you permit greedy unions to be involved with your company.

And ryanair is a example of what happens when you dont

Bussywussy

Bussywussy wrote: »

Greedy unions,good one....the pay claim for some sections isn't half of what it should be...

Some would call that blackmail and using the media as the delivery method. Take it or else ! 2.7% per annum that’s miserly while the airline grows and profits are up triple that.

Bussywussy

kona wrote: »

And ryanair is a example of what happens when you dont

Ask management do they know what will happen when all the licensed engineers are leaving and not being suitably replaced.....similar to ryanair situation...

Locker10a

Mebuntu wrote: »

Threat to those shiny new A321's:

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/aer-lingus-warns-pay-claims-could-put-1bn-strategy-at-risk-36206180.html

This is what happens when you permit greedy unions to be involved with your company.

Utter rubbish!! The only thing in peril from any pay rises are the amount of juicy profits and dividends available to the greedy few at the very top of EI and IAG.
Thoughts and prayers with poor IAG....lol

kona

Bussywussy wrote: »

Ask management do they know what will happen when all the licensed engineers are leaving and not being suitably replaced.....similar to ryanair situation...

I think it was clear this summer... problem will only get worse.

joeysoap

Staff haven't had a pay rise for 6/7 years. Bit of pent up frustration there maybe. Also staff have not been getting increments - which means staff with say 10 years service are barely above newly recruited staff in pay terms. That's not good.

Jamie2k9

The pay claim is extortionate......

Aer Lingus Express will be the next step if it continues......don't underestimate IAG.

billy few mates

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The pay claim is extortionate......

Aer Lingus Express will be the next step if it continues......don't underestimate IAG.

What pay claim are you talking about?

Jamie2k9

billy few mates wrote: »

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The pay claim is extortionate......

Aer Lingus Express will be the next step if it continues......don't underestimate IAG.

What pay claim are you talking about?

Cabin Crew, its what rhe A321 commenrs are related to.

Dardania

joeysoap wrote: »

Staff haven't had a pay rise for 6/7 years. Bit of pent up frustration there maybe. Also staff have not been getting increments - which means staff with say 10 years service are barely above newly recruited staff in pay terms. That's not good.

Not being aggressive in asking this, but what has inflation been like in the last 6/7 years? Increments are usually linked to that...
Are the demands in line with inflation or exceeding it?

Bussywussy

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The pay claim is extortionate......

Aer Lingus Express will be the next step if it continues......don't underestimate IAG.

Good luck staffing that with professional employees...
Extortionate haha your having a laugh....even if the pay claim was doubled the engineers still wouldn't be near the money proper companies pay

Jamie2k9

Bussywussy wrote: »

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The pay claim is extortionate......

Aer Lingus Express will be the next step if it continues......don't underestimate IAG.

Good luck staffing that with professional employees...
Extortionate haha your having a laugh....even if the pay claim was doubled the engineers still wouldn't be near the money proper companies pay

No luck needed, very easy to make it work.

Lapmo_Dancer

Interestingly, if you compare EI pay and conditions to that of its’ main competitors across the Atlantic - DL, UA, AA, AC - you will see that EI enjoys a significant cost advantage.

Bussywussy

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

No luck needed, very easy to make it work.

Not with professionals

NH2013

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The pay claim is extortionate......

Aer Lingus Express will be the next step if it continues......don't underestimate IAG.

A pay claim of 2.75% per year for 3 years, after 10 years of no pay rises, no increments is not excessive, and is significantly below inflation, keep in mind most staff in EI are on new lower paid contracts, no one who's joined since 2009 has anything resembling legacy conditions. Staff will still be worse off over all than 10 years ago in real terms as this doesn't even match inflation.

Also keep in mind this is a labour court recommended pay rise, not a union demand.

Lapmo_Dancer

Who are EI’s main competitors across the Atlantic, where these new aircraft will operate? UA, AA, DL and AC. I wouldn’t classify Norwegian as a major player yet but they have potential.

The big 3 US airlines have all recently agreed contracts with their pilots offering 20% plus increases. I believe other working groups have enjoyed similar increases.

US carriers must operate with 3 pilots on all transatlantic sectors. I heard that EI are operating as far away as Miami and Chicago with only 2?

Is it true that EI give their crews only 1 night rest after a sector to the west coast?

Anecdotally, I was recently speaking to an ex colleague who moved back to the US from the midddle east. I was surprised to learn that senior wide-body Capts in the big 3 can potentially make up to $500k and senior wide-body FOs up to $300k per annum when over time and profit share is included.

It seems to me, as an outsider, that EI enjoys a significant cost advantage over its’ main competitors.

Tenger

I watched a couple of YouTube vids yesterday of the Aer Lingus COO Mike Rutter announcing the Philly route and answering questions to media. (Travelextra Ireland is the channel)
In one of these he refers to Ryanair and Norwegian as their main competition. To me this is stepping away from their hybrid/value carrier statements, and trying to fight head to head with LCCs.

Ive got mates in EI and can confirm 3 flight crew only on West Coast, and daily flights to SFO and LAX mean 24 hours stopovers.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Cabin Crew, its what the A321 commenrs are related to.

My understanding of the current talks is that it is all sections. It was in the papers about 2-3 months ago. Stated then that EI staff took payfreeze in 2007, this was extended under Greenfield plan of 2010 along with new T&Cs implemented.

LRC recommended 8% over 3 years, unions wanted 19%. This was in Sindo yesterday.

Locker10a

Pay and conditions at EI really aren't as great as many folk here seem to think.  For one thing they have awful rostering, friends I know there can and have worked 6 days with 1 day off.  There seems to be no "plan" with rostering crew, they just fight fires so to speak, plugging gaps which inevitably create other gaps. 
This pay deal as mentioned comes after a 10 year pay freeze and is recommended.  While I understand the need to remain competitive, I don't find this unreasonable. Very very few staff are now remaining on the golden contracts of decades past.  Staff joining EI now have conditions that are inline with the industry, Ireland is one of the most expensive countries in Europe, living in Dublin now is extremely expensive, housing and cost of living is extortionate. And so anyone employed here will naturally need pay that reflects costs

kona

Locker10a wrote: »

Pay and conditions at EI really aren't as great as many folk here seem to think.  For one thing they have awful rostering, friends I know there can and have worked 6 days with 1 day off.  There seems to be no "plan" with rostering crew, they just fight fires so to speak, plugging gaps which inevitably create other gaps. 
This pay deal as mentioned comes after a 10 year pay freeze and is recommended.  While I understand the need to remain competitive, I don't find this unreasonable. Very very few staff are now remaining on the golden contracts of decades past.  Staff joining EI now have conditions that are inline with the industry, Ireland is one of the most expensive countries in Europe, living in Dublin now is extremely expensive, housing and cost of living is extortionate. And so anyone employed here will naturally need pay that reflects costs

Stop talking sense! Sure i heard my friends cousins boyfriends mother is a cleaner in ei and gets 80k a year and 4 weeks paid leave:pac:

Locker10a

kona wrote: »

Locker10a wrote: »

Pay and conditions at EI really aren't as great as many folk here seem to think.  For one thing they have awful rostering, friends I know there can and have worked 6 days with 1 day off.  There seems to be no "plan" with rostering crew, they just fight fires so to speak, plugging gaps which inevitably create other gaps. 
This pay deal as mentioned comes after a 10 year pay freeze and is recommended.  While I understand the need to remain competitive, I don't find this unreasonable. Very very few staff are now remaining on the golden contracts of decades past.  Staff joining EI now have conditions that are inline with the industry, Ireland is one of the most expensive countries in Europe, living in Dublin now is extremely expensive, housing and cost of living is extortionate. And so anyone employed here will naturally need pay that reflects costs

Stop talking sense! Sure i heard my friends cousins boyfriends mother is a cleaner in ei and gets 80k a year and 4 weeks paid leave:pac:

Honestly Ive heard so much of that talk over the years!! Its laughable! 
Only this week Aer Lingus ran a recruitment advert\article in the Irish Independent. Cabin crew pay is mentioned in the article,   
 "[font=Georgia, serif]Aer Lingus cabin crew can earn a potential €1,700 to €1,900 per month in take home pay, based on the average summer season, the airline says. "[/font]
[font=Georgia, serif]Franky I was surprised by this, I think thats very low pay. [/font]
[font=Georgia, serif]Link: [/font]http://www.independent.ie/life/travel/aer-lingus-is-hiring-cabin-crew-heres-how-to-apply-and-what-you-could-earn-36199881.html

L1011

kona wrote: »

Stop talking sense! Sure i heard my friends cousins boyfriends mother is a cleaner in ei and gets 80k a year and 4 weeks paid leave:pac:

If you aren't getting 4 weeks paid leave in a fulltime job, you need to contact NERA - considering its the legal minimum!

Candamir

L1011 wrote: »

If you aren't getting 4 weeks paid leave in a fulltime job, you need to contact NERA - considering its the legal minimum!

Come on! It's obvious when he quotes 80K he's talking about a part timer! This is EI after all.

Jamie2k9

Lapmo_Dancer wrote: »

Interestingly, if you compare EI pay and conditions to that of its’ main competitors across the Atlantic - DL, UA, AA, AC - you will see that EI enjoys a significant cost advantage.

You can't just compare to those because its all crew you have to take into account FR, DY, Rouge, WestJet and future operations like JetBlue.

Bussywussy wrote: »

Not with professionals

Rubbish.

NH2013 wrote: »

A pay claim of 2.75% per year for 3 years, after 10 years of no pay rises, no increments is not excessive, and is significantly below inflation, keep in mind most staff in EI are on new lower paid contracts, no one who's joined since 2009 has anything resembling legacy conditions. Staff will still be worse off over all than 10 years ago in real terms as this doesn't even match inflation.

Also keep in mind this is a labour court recommended pay rise, not a union demand.

In my book it's slightly to high however the % is much lower than originally demanded. EI have said themselves they can give an increase but it must protect the cost base.

Who are EI’s main competitors across the Atlantic, where these new aircraft will operate? UA, AA, DL and AC. I wouldn’t classify Norwegian as a major player yet but they have potential.

The big 3 US airlines have all recently agreed contracts with their pilots offering 20% plus increases. I believe other working groups have enjoyed similar increases.

US carriers must operate with 3 pilots on all transatlantic sectors. I heard that EI are operating as far away as Miami and Chicago with only 2?

Is it true that EI give their crews only 1 night rest after a sector to the west coast?

Anecdotally, I was recently speaking to an ex colleague who moved back to the US from the midddle east. I was surprised to learn that senior wide-body Capts in the big 3 can potentially make up to $500k and senior wide-body FOs up to $300k per annum when over time and profit share is included.

It seems to me, as an outsider, that EI enjoys a significant cost advantage over its’ main competitors.

You cannot isolate LH as I stated it's an increase across the board. Yes EI have advantages over the legacy American carriers.

Also a major difference for US carriers is L/H is not their bread and butter where as for EI it is so.

My understanding of the current talks is that it is all sections. It was in the papers about 2-3 months ago. Stated then that EI staff took payfreeze in 2007, this was extended under Greenfield plan of 2010 along with new T&Cs implemented.

LRC recommended 8% over 3 years, unions wanted 19%. This was in Sindo yesterday.

Fair enough, 8% is more reasonable and likely doable once productivity is offered.

Pay and conditions at EI really aren't as great as many folk here seem to think. For one thing they have awful rostering, friends I know there can and have worked 6 days with 1 day off. There seems to be no "plan" with rostering crew, they just fight fires so to speak, plugging gaps which inevitably create other gaps.
This pay deal as mentioned comes after a 10 year pay freeze and is recommended. While I understand the need to remain competitive, I don't find this unreasonable. Very very few staff are now remaining on the golden contracts of decades past. Staff joining EI now have conditions that are inline with the industry, Ireland is one of the most expensive countries in Europe, living in Dublin now is extremely expensive, housing and cost of living is extortionate. And so anyone employed here will naturally need pay that reflects costs

Bar a handful of BA crew, best in IAG and most low cost carriers which EI is more less.

__
My main point was if EI go back into the mass striking days, IAG won't hesitate to tackle it and do something along the lines of EI Express or even move the aircraft to Level etc. The comment from COO was just a reminder to be realistic and more less saying people should be careful when weighing up options!

Yes a pay rise will be given but the original demands were way to high.

kona

L1011 wrote: »

If you aren't getting 4 weeks paid leave in a fulltime job, you need to contact NERA - considering its the legal minimum!

Apolgies i missed the 1. 14 weeks!

Stovepipe

Locker 10A has it exactly right; pay freeze for nigh on ten years, no increments (unlike the greedy rail drivers who want huge money and have had all their increments since 2007), three different pay scales for engineers (which has prompted a whole lot of people to leave).....we have delivered a huge amount of productivity in all trades and grades so its time for EI to reach for the chequebook.

duskyjoe

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The comment from COO was just a reminder to be realistic and more less saying people should be careful when weighing up options!.

It was also a reminder to the great unwashed that bonuses are at peril here and Christmas is coming.

Bussywussy

Theres absolutely not one shred of productivity to give in the engineering side as stovepipe said...understaffed with work piled on top..it's mad how people don't quite understand how such an operation works and how quickly it can fall apart...

Locker10a

Bussywussy wrote: »

Theres absolutely not one shred of productivity to give in the engineering side as stovepipe said...understaffed with work piled on top..it's mad how people don't quite understand how such an operation works and how quickly it can fall apart...

To be honest I don't see where there can be productivity gains anywhere. After greenfield ?! Pretty much all staff at EI work max hours and with bare bones staff.
EI operate their 757s with 4 cabin crew, I believe this is the lowest crew ratio for this aircraft in the industry. The US carries have a minimum of 5/6 crew as do the UK charters and Icelandair for the the same aircraft. It's common for full short haul flights to be boarded in Dublin airport by just one gate agent. I've experienced it several times. Frankly I don't know how they manage it single-handedly what with having to scan boarding passes, check ID, count luggage and tag bags, all with the pressure to get an on time departure. I can't speak for behind the scenes, only from what I see as a passengers but I can't see the tight ship that is modern day EI having any further productivity to gain from employees.

Locker10a

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Lapmo_Dancer wrote: »

Interestingly, if you compare EI pay and conditions to that of its’ main competitors across the Atlantic - DL, UA, AA, AC - you will see that EI enjoys a significant cost advantage.

You can't just compare to those because its all crew you have to take into account FR, DY, Rouge, WestJet and future operations like JetBlue.

Bussywussy wrote: »

Not with professionals

Rubbish.

NH2013 wrote: »

A pay claim of 2.75% per year for 3 years, after 10 years of no pay rises, no increments is not excessive, and is significantly below inflation, keep in mind most staff in EI are on new lower paid contracts, no one who's joined since 2009 has anything resembling legacy conditions. Staff will still be worse off over all than 10 years ago in real terms as this doesn't even match inflation.

Also keep in mind this is a labour court recommended pay rise, not a union demand.

In my book it's slightly to high however the % is much lower than originally demanded.  EI have said themselves they can give an increase but it must protect the cost base.

Who are EI’s main competitors across the Atlantic, where these new aircraft will operate? UA, AA, DL and AC. I wouldn’t classify Norwegian as a major player yet but they have potential.

The big 3 US airlines have all recently agreed contracts with their pilots offering 20% plus increases. I believe other working groups have enjoyed similar increases.

US carriers must operate with 3 pilots on all transatlantic sectors. I heard that EI are operating as far away as Miami and Chicago with only 2?

Is it true that EI give their crews only 1 night rest after a sector to the west coast?

Anecdotally, I was recently speaking to an ex colleague who moved back to the US from the midddle east. I was surprised to learn that senior wide-body Capts in the big 3 can potentially make up to $500k and senior wide-body FOs up to $300k per annum when over time and profit share is included.

It seems to me, as an outsider, that EI enjoys a significant cost advantage over its’ main competitors.

You cannot isolate LH as I stated it's an increase across the board.  Yes EI have advantages over the legacy American carriers.  

Also a major difference for US carriers is L/H is not their bread and butter where as for EI it is so.

My understanding of the current talks is that it is all sections. It was in the papers about 2-3 months ago. Stated then that EI staff took payfreeze in 2007, this was extended under Greenfield plan of 2010 along with new T&Cs implemented.

LRC recommended 8% over 3 years, unions wanted 19%. This was in Sindo yesterday.

Fair enough, 8% is more reasonable and likely doable once productivity is offered.

Pay and conditions at EI really aren't as great as many folk here seem to think.  For one thing they have awful rostering, friends I know there can and have worked 6 days with 1 day off.  There seems to be no "plan" with rostering crew, they just fight fires so to speak, plugging gaps which inevitably create other gaps.
This pay deal as mentioned comes after a 10 year pay freeze and is recommended.  While I understand the need to remain competitive, I don't find this unreasonable. Very very few staff are now remaining on the golden contracts of decades past.  Staff joining EI now have conditions that are inline with the industry, Ireland is one of the most expensive countries in Europe, living in Dublin now is extremely expensive, housing and cost of living is extortionate. And so anyone employed here will naturally need pay that reflects costs

Bar a handful of BA crew, best in IAG and most low cost carriers which EI is more less.

__
My main point was if EI go back into the mass striking days, IAG won't hesitate to tackle it and do something along the lines of EI Express or even move the aircraft to Level etc.  The comment from COO was just a reminder to be realistic and more less saying people should be careful when weighing up options!

Yes a pay rise will be given but the original demands were way to high.

The original demand were just the union bargaining, thats their job, you always ask for more than you know they'll give! 
I certainly don't want to see EI on strike, there in a good position now and let hope they stay there.
I dont think they'd set up EI express(if it came to that), probably just a Vueling base in Dublin with EI codeshares for long haul.
BA legacy crew are still very much the majority at BA, and Iberia too.  And when adjusted for the cost of living in Ireland  the newer contracts at EI aren't far off the new fleets at BA and Iberia.

basill

Sounds like a man on the ropes with all the bruha. He has an interesting "history" for anyone that can be bothered searching the interweb.

Locker10a

basill wrote: »

Sounds like a man on the ropes with all the bruha. He has an interesting "history" for anyone that can be bothered searching the interweb.

It almost feels like the EI board seek out these people.
If they (EI) refuse to stick to the Labour court agreement, there will be hell to pay, and I fear they will refuse, based on every other negotiation in the history of EI...

joeysoap

I think AL will also refuse to accept the Labour court recommendation. Was talking to a member of cabin crew yesterday, she said most staff would take the offer. I don't think the LC tied the recommendation to productivity?

Tenger

Surely the company must follow LRC recommendations?
Wasn't the last settled by both parties agreeing to allow LRC to act as judge?

Jamie2k9

Tenger wrote: »

Surely the company must follow LRC recommendations?
Wasn't the last settled by both parties agreeing to allow LRC to act as judge?

LRC is not binding, it should be Leo V hinted at making it binding but I can't see it happening.

Sounds like a man on the ropes with all the bruha. He has an interesting "history" for anyone that can be bothered searching the interweb.

Not a fan of him either and your right about his past.

Locker10a

Tenger wrote: »

Surely the company must follow LRC recommendations?
Wasn't the last settled by both parties agreeing to allow LRC to act as judge?

No unfortunatly it's not binding, and everything Rutter has said points to EI not complying with the agreement. As far as staff are concerned it's a done deal. Only Aer Lingus can F**k things up now by not actioning it (The deal is supposed to come into effect in January).
My prediction is, come January Aer Lingus won't issue the pay rise and hello strike, goodbye stellar reputation during Ryanair's worst crisis in 30 years

joeysoap

Am I correct in thinking that it only applies to current employees? Anyone retired does not automatically get an increase in pension ?

Tenger

joeysoap wrote: »

Am I correct in thinking that it only applies to current employees? Anyone retired does not automatically get an increase in pension ?

I can't see how a retired person should be getting anything from Aer Lingus under this LRC recommendation.
They retired under certain terms which they agreed to at that time.

joeysoap

less reason for AL to agree the payment then.

Locker10a

joeysoap wrote: »

less reason for AL to agree the payment then.

I don't follow

PreCocious

Looks like use of those shiny new planes is being used as a threat in their dealings with the DAA as well..

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/aer-lingus-and-dublin-airport-relations-have-soured-immensely-1.3243989

joeysoap

Locker10a wrote: »

I don't follow

The company only have to apply the increase to working staff, in previous years pensioners would also have to get an increase. But not now.

I see I worded that wrong , should have said ' less reason not to agree the payment

basill

I can't see how a retired person should be getting anything from Aer Lingus under this LRC recommendation.
They retired under certain terms which they agreed to at that time.

I think its a bit more complicated than that. Seem to remember that they were entitled to inflationary increases in their pension to avoid the obvious dilution of the income but the current (employed) members of the scheme voted to freeze their pensions. As a retired member they don't get a vote. Nasty situation all round.

joeysoap

basill wrote: »

I think its a bit more complicated than that. Seem to remember that they were entitled to inflationary increases in their pension to avoid the obvious dilution of the income but the current (employed) members of the scheme voted to freeze their pensions. As a retired member they don't get a vote. Nasty situation all round.

Same happened in An Post, result is that current An Post staff got 2.5 last year and 3.6 this year, but pensioners got nothing.

Dardania

If you watch the absolutely brilliant Yes Prime Minister, they make a big deal out of the fact that the senior civil servants have index linked pensions.

I take the EI pensioners have a Defined Benefit pension - is it adaquete for someone to live on e.g. a high percentage of the final retirement salary?

NH2013

Dardania wrote: »

If you watch the absolutely brilliant Yes Prime Minister, they make a big deal out of the fact that the senior civil servants have index linked pensions.

I take the EI pensioners have a Defined Benefit pension - is it adaquete for someone to live on e.g. a high percentage of the final retirement salary?

Current pensioners are mostly a on a DB pension, not index linked or linked to current salary scales, but linked to final retiring salary.

Anyone who has retired in the last 3 years has been on a Defined Contribution scheme as the general staff scheme was wound up as it had become insolvent. There was much talk about this at the time in the papers. All current and future general staff to retire will be on DC schemes so no index linking.

The only group left in the company with a DB scheme are the pilots who had a separate scheme to the general staff with much higher employee and employer contributions made to keep it solvent.

Dardania

Sounds much like how the rest of the private world is going (DC)

Stovepipe

it wasn't yet insolvent. It's potential future debt was Eu 700m , not actual debt.

Jamie2k9

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/1103/917339-aer-lingus/

Unions accepted the pay deal. IMPACT by almost 96% verses SIPTU at almost 54%.

Locker10a

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/1103/917339-aer-lingus/

Unions accepted the pay deal. IMPACT by almost 96% verses SIPTU at almost 54%.

Excellent news let’s hope EI hold up their end of the deal now