Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on [email protected] for help. Thanks :)
Private profiles - please note that profiles marked as private will soon be public. This will facilitate moderation so mods can view users' warning histories. All of your posts across the site will appear on your profile page (including PI, RI). Groups posts will remain private except to users who have access to the same Groups as you. Thread here
Some important site news, please read here. Thanks!

Tax

  • 06-10-2017 3:39pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,889 ✭✭✭ Mr. Fancypants


    My understanding is that any gains from cryptocurrency (above 1270 euro) are susceptible to capital gains tax. Has anyone gone through the process of filing in the returns? I believe it is a painful document to fill in. Has anyone gotten any assistance to fill in the CGT form and if so what has your experience been?


«1

Comments

  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 19,594 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Mr.S


    Interested to know this too. If you are a PAYE worker, it seems like you just need to file a form 12?

    http://www.revenue.ie/en/gains-gifts-and-inheritance/transfering-an-asset/how-do-you-pay-and-file-cgt.aspx

    But when you declare, what do you declare exactly...the final amount withdrawn into Fiat, or each individual trade where you made the profit which you end up withdrawing?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,072 ✭✭✭ ZeroThreat


    Mr.S wrote: »
    Interested to know this too. If you are a PAYE worker, it seems like you just need to file a form 12?

    http://www.revenue.ie/en/gains-gifts-and-inheritance/transfering-an-asset/how-do-you-pay-and-file-cgt.aspx

    But when you declare, what do you declare exactly...the final amount withdrawn into Fiat, or each individual trade where you made the profit which you end up withdrawing?

    I guess the whole crypto area is pretty vague due to the relative 'newness' of the technology.

    I took the advanced tax P6 option while studying ACCA earlier this year and don't recall seeing them mentioned anywhere in the capital taxes sections of the course.


    Edit : Maybe in years to come, Revenue will establish a special 'crypto compliance' taskforce :)


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,764 Mod ✭✭✭✭ ToxicPaddy


    ZeroThreat wrote: »
    I guess the whole crypto area is pretty vague due to the relative 'newness' of the technology.

    I took the advanced tax P6 option while studying ACCA earlier this year and don't recall seeing them mentioned anywhere in the capital taxes sections of the course.


    Edit : Maybe in years to come, Revenue will establish a special 'crypto compliance' taskforce :)

    Probably some more regulation required first by central banks, financial regulators etc. Anyone i know working with financial institutions have to declare any trading they do up front and have minimum holding times etc to prevent any grey areas being entered into.

    Very few have any info or procedures relating to crypto currencies as they haven't been properly regulated yet but in saying that it's probably good to be up front about these things unless you want the revenue coming knocking on your door :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,072 ✭✭✭ ZeroThreat


    ToxicPaddy wrote: »
    Probably some more regulation required first by central banks, financial regulators etc. Anyone i know working with financial institutions have to declare any trading they do up front and have minimum holding times etc to prevent any grey areas being entered into.

    Very few have any info or procedures relating to crypto currencies as they haven't been properly regulated yet but in saying that it's probably good to be up front about these things unless you want the revenue coming knocking on your door :D

    Taking an extended break, say somewhere like malta could also help.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,223 pro_gnostic_8


    All you lads fixating on Tax need to get a grip on the whole point of Bitcoin, and the roots and philosophy of libertarianism, crypto-anarchism , and self-determination that underlies the protocol.
    Bitcoin is a decentalised, disruptive monetary methodology that operates outside the entire State-ist fiduciary system. The point of Bitcoin is to allow you to be in control of your own money, and to disable the State's ability to take (thieve?) your wealth through indirect methods like Q.E. manufactured inflation and through direct methods like Taxation.
    If you wish to remain a slave to a State-ist system that wants to remain in control of your wealth, then, well and good -- pay the taxes that the State demands of you. Bitcoin is really not for you. But if you feel you are already being screwed-over through other forms of Taxation and superfluous deductions of your wealth, then, you know what to do. Bitcoin can be your friend in that circumstance.

    Just sayin', like. :)


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,115 ✭✭✭ asteroids over berlin


    All you lads fixating on Tax need to get a grip on the whole point of Bitcoin, and the roots and philosophy of libertarianism, crypto-anarchism , and self-determination that underlies the protocol.
    Bitcoin is a decentalised, disruptive monetary methodology that operates outside the entire State-ist fiduciary system. The point of Bitcoin is to allow you to be in control of your own money, and to disable the State's ability to take (thieve?) your wealth through indirect methods like Q.E. manufactured inflation and through direct methods like Taxation.
    If you wish to remain a slave to a State-ist system that wants to remain in control of your wealth, then, well and good -- pay the taxes that the State demands of you. Bitcoin is really not for you. But if you feel you are already being screwed-over through other forms of Taxation and superfluous deductions of your wealth, then, you know what to do. Bitcoin can be your friend in that circumstance.

    Just sayin', like. :)

    Impossible, if there is mass adoption, it will be subject to tax. It will never go mainstream otherwise. The fundamentals must evolve.


  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 19,594 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Mr.S


    All you lads fixating on Tax need to get a grip on the whole point of Bitcoin, and the roots and philosophy of libertarianism, crypto-anarchism , and self-determination that underlies the protocol.
    Bitcoin is a decentalised, disruptive monetary methodology that operates outside the entire State-ist fiduciary system. The point of Bitcoin is to allow you to be in control of your own money, and to disable the State's ability to take (thieve?) your wealth through indirect methods like Q.E. manufactured inflation and through direct methods like Taxation.
    If you wish to remain a slave to a State-ist system that wants to remain in control of your wealth, then, well and good -- pay the taxes that the State demands of you. Bitcoin is really not for you. But if you feel you are already being screwed-over through other forms of Taxation and superfluous deductions of your wealth, then, you know what to do. Bitcoin can be your friend in that circumstance.

    Just sayin', like. :)

    That’s all great until someone comes asking for the source of large deposits into your bank a/c. Can’t exactly close the door on them!

    Of course you could just keep everything in crypto and spend it for all your purchases but we’re far far far away from that.

    Plus, if you want to use undeclared crypto profits for any large scale purchase or deposit, like a mortgage, you’ll get a big nope.

    Nobody wants to pay tax on profits, but in the current climate there’s no getting around it, if you do it will just cause a huge headache later.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,223 pro_gnostic_8


    Impossible, if there is mass adoption, it will be subject to tax.
    Absolutely not !
    The Bitcoin ecosystem is not subject to a State-administered Taxation model; it is not subject at present and never will be. By definition and by protocol.
    It is only those timid persons who are in awe of and are intimidated by State-ist administration who allow themselves to be subject to a regulatory taxation structure.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,223 pro_gnostic_8


    Mr.S wrote: »

    Nobody wants to pay tax on profits, but in the current climate there’s no getting around it,
    Oh, there most certainly is !
    If you allow yourself the freedom from being intimidated either consciously or unconsciously by Fear, you will discover the techniques to do so.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,932 ✭✭✭✭ AndrewJRenko


    Impossible, if there is mass adoption, it will be subject to tax.
    Absolutely not !
    The Bitcoin ecosystem is not subject to a State-administered Taxation model; it is not subject at present and never will be. By definition and by protocol.
    It is only those timid persons who are in awe of and are intimidated by State-ist administration  who allow themselves to be subject to a regulatory taxation structure.

    I'm old enough to remember hearing this same oul guff in the 70s and 80s from all the cute hoors with the offshore accounts who were absolutely certain that Revenue would never catch up with them. It didn't work out well for them.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 1,223 pro_gnostic_8


    That was Fiat -- this is Bitcoin. There's a world of difference between the two -- and a googolplex of difficulty difference as to how Revenue can catch the Bitcoin tax evader..

    Do yourself a favour by educating yourself on the new technology, its anarcho implications, and its consequences for the global financial system.
    Being "old enough" on its own doesn't give you a free pass into pontificating about the necessity of paying tax. Propagandizing newcomers on here about imagined dire repercussions of keeping their bitcoin wealth details private is nothing less than spreading FUD.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,115 ✭✭✭ asteroids over berlin


    Oh, there most certainly is !
    If you allow yourself the freedom from being intimidated either consciously or unconsciously by Fear, you will discover the techniques to do so.

    if they (government) are not making cash from it, outright ban, make it illegal, then what! There will be tax! You may even get paid in it one day


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,889 ✭✭✭ Mr. Fancypants


    Sooooooo, going back to my original question
    mbroaders wrote: »
    Has anyone gone through the process of filing in the returns? I believe it is a painful document to fill in. Has anyone gotten any assistance to fill in the CGT form and if so what has your experience been?

    I suppose my query is specifically about when converting some of the profits from crypto back into fiat.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,072 ✭✭✭ ZeroThreat


    That was Fiat -- this is Bitcoin. There's a world of difference between the two -- and a googolplex of difficulty difference as to how Revenue can catch the Bitcoin tax evader..

    Do yourself a favour by educating yourself on the new technology, its anarcho implications, and its consequences for the global financial system.
    Being "old enough" on its own doesn't give you a free pass into pontificating about the necessity of paying tax. Propagandizing newcomers on here about imagined dire repercussions of keeping their bitcoin wealth details private is nothing less than spreading FUD.


    You can keep your bitcoin wealth tax free, provided you keep it in its digital format online/in your wallet and never 'cash out'.

    However, the access ramps of getting on/off the bitcoin express - ie. withdrawls & cashing out is where the taxman can detect your bank balance(s) falling/rising rapidly, and in order to buy assets in the real world you're going to have to 'cash out' sooner or later.

    I'm not even talking just about property. You can't even buy precious metals directly in bitcoin as far as I'm aware, or walk into a BMW garage with your trezor/ledger wallet. :pac:


    Once there's movement in large sums in a fairly short period of time to/from your bank, you're most likely flagged by some sort of revenue analytic software system that analysis spending patterns, and before long, a brown envelope with a harp stamped on it will be coming through your letterbox...

    Any purchases over a couple of grand are flagged, and it's difficult even to take out any significant sum of your own money in cash from the banks.


  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 19,594 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Mr.S


    Oh, there most certainly is !
    If you allow yourself the freedom from being intimidated either consciously or unconsciously by Fear, you will discover the techniques to do so.

    Sure we can always move to Malta or Germany :D

    But really, as the previous poster said - if you want to cash out, you’ll need to declare.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,932 ✭✭✭✭ AndrewJRenko


    I'm not even talking just about property. You can't even buy precious metals directly in bitcoin as far as I'm aware, or walk into a BMW garage with your trezor/ledger wallet. :pac:
    And even if you could, they would obliged to record details of large transactions and make those details available to Revenue. If you manage to find a way to use your bitcoin to buy a Rolex in Dubai, Revenue can ask you at any time to prove it was bought with taxed income, or they take it away - just like they've done when targeting the criminal gangs.

    Can I presume that pro_gnostic_8's disdain for paying tax is matched by disdain for using public services, like roads, airports, schools, hospitals etc?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,223 pro_gnostic_8


    ZeroThreat wrote: »
    You can't even buy precious metals directly in bitcoin as far as I'm aware, or walk into a BMW garage with your trezor/ledger wallet.
    Really?
    Wow !
    /sarcasm

    (At this very moment, I can withdraw all or some of my bitcoin at Bitstamp in the form of .9999 gold.
    And, a broker will source a car of your specification -- any car -- for payment in Bitcoin. Hell, I'll source you what you want myself for a nominal 1% commission on top). :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,223 pro_gnostic_8


    Mr.S wrote: »
    Sure we can always move to Malta or Germany :D

    But really, as the previous poster said - if you want to cash out, you’ll need to declare.
    More incorrect statements again, I'm afraid. One can comfortably engage in a bitcoin to cash tx without going anywhere near a bank.

    I assume you've heard of Localbitcoin where you can sell your coin for cash in in-person trades with no paper, signatures or declarations whatsoever.
    Then there is the Over-The-Counter market which is many multiples the size of all the exchanges which we "little people" use.
    Finally, for smaller cashouts there are the offshore Bitcoin debit cards such as Xapo, TenX, Monaco. Load up with bitcoin and cash out to cash at ATM's or buy s**t with it.


  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 19,594 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Mr.S


    More incorrect statements again, I'm afraid. One can comfortably engage in a bitcoin to cash tx without going anywhere near a bank.

    I assume you've heard of Localbitcoin where you can sell your coin for cash in in-person trades with no paper, signatures or declarations whatsoever.
    Then there is the Over-The-Counter market which is many multiples the size of all the exchanges which we "little people" use.
    Finally, for smaller cashouts there are the offshore Bitcoin debit cards such as Xapo, TenX, Monaco. Load up with bitcoin and cash out to cash at ATM's or buy s**t with it.

    Ok, lets say you want to get a mortgage what then? Or when you want to store your newly found cash from in-person trades into an account because you don't want to have piles of cash? Pay rent? buy a car? (not via a broker...) basically any high-ticket item?


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,932 ✭✭✭✭ AndrewJRenko


    ZeroThreat wrote: »
    You can't even buy precious metals directly in bitcoin as far as I'm aware, or walk into a BMW garage with your trezor/ledger wallet.
    Really?
    Wow !
    /sarcasm

    (At this very moment, I can withdraw all or some of my bitcoin at Bitstamp in the form of .9999  gold.
    And, a broker will source a car of your specification -- any car -- for payment in Bitcoin. Hell, I'll source you what you want myself for a nominal 1% commission on top). :)
    Is the broker in Ireland, and subject to the money laundering reporting regulations? Or is he outside Ireland, requiring you to register for VRT when you bring the car in?


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 358 ✭✭ noel100


    Bitcoin is up $400 on reports Amazon accepting Bitcoin.
    So if this is the case how can you declare profit the pay taxes in euro as Bitcoin is starting to be accepted as a currency in it's own right.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭ wally1990


    For your information about tax on gains for crypto a response from
    The revenue about crypto

    http://bitcoinsinireland.com/irish-legal-position-march14reddit/


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,932 ✭✭✭✭ AndrewJRenko


    I assume you've heard of Localbitcoin where you can sell your coin for cash in in-person trades with no paper, signatures or declarations whatsoever.
    Then there is the Over-The-Counter market which is many multiples the size of all the exchanges which we "little people" use.
    Finally, for smaller cashouts there are the offshore Bitcoin debit cards such as Xapo, TenX, Monaco. Load up with bitcoin and cash out to cash at ATM's or buy s**t with it.

    So you're going to end up with assets or lifestyle that doesn't match your declared taxed income? That's a great way to come to the attention of Revenue or CAB.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,223 pro_gnostic_8



    Can I presume that pro_gnostic_8's disdain for paying tax is matched by disdain for using public services, like roads, airports, schools, hospitals etc?
    Ahhh yes, that old red-herring again.
    I could counter by asking if you are happy having your tax contributions going to fund the obscenely inflated pensions of retired dead-beat TD's, or funding the bailout of corrupt banks and unsecured bondholders and building developers, of seeing it making up part of the 64Billion ransom demanded by Brussels?


  • Registered Users Posts: 358 ✭✭ noel100


    Uncle of mine sold his house in London for £350k before the refendum last year. Transferred to euros in Ireland bought a cheap house here and money he has now has a profit if he converted back to pounds. Does he have to pay tax i don't think so.
    If you have Bitcoin and able to buy goods directly from bitcoin do you pay capital gains tax I can't see how that can be inforced.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,223 pro_gnostic_8


    Mr.S wrote: »
    Ok, lets say you want to get a mortgage what then? Or when you want to store your newly found cash from in-person trades into an account because you don't want to have piles of cash? Pay rent?
    I can't see what relevance paying a mortgage has with converting Bitcoin to cash. Honestly.
    And if you "don't want to have piles of cash" why convert from BTC to cash in the first place?
    You've genuinely lost me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,223 pro_gnostic_8


    So you're going to end up with assets or lifestyle that doesn't match your declared taxed income? That's a great way to come to the attention of Revenue or CAB.
    You strike me as an intelligent fella; some-one who would be inventive enough to "fly under the radar" or to find ways to discreetly enjoy your new-found wealth.
    Of course, there are other ways to address this issue (if it would be an issue to you) -- non-resident accounts in investor-friendly territories; buying property abroad, etc etc. But hey, I'm not here to give a 101 course in money-laundering or tax evasion. Let Google be your friend for that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,223 pro_gnostic_8


    noel100 wrote: »
    Bitcoin is up $400 on reports Amazon accepting Bitcoin.
    This would be momentous if it turned out to be true.
    I doubt, however, that Amazon will be accepting Bitcoin at any time in the near future.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,072 ✭✭✭ ZeroThreat


    Crypto may be good for 'hodling' , speculation or as a store of wealth (esp. BTC) but at this point in history, the value is way too volatile for most businesses to accept as payment.


  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 10,340 Mod ✭✭✭✭ LoLth


    Th OPs understanding is correct. You are subject to capital gains tax and you are bound, by law, to declare it.

    There are legal ways to reduce this liability but methods to avoid it completely through whatever roundabout method regardless of your political beliefs are illegal.

    The boards.ie terms of use is that you will not post illegal material. This includes "how-tos" and encouragement to commit illegal acts.

    Discussion of law and legal obligation in relation to crypto-currency is fine. Discussion about how to circumvent legal responsibility is not.

    pro_gnostic_8 : your views are your own but please respect the rules of the forum.


Advertisement