Tax

Mr.S wrote: »

Interested to know this too. If you are a PAYE worker, it seems like you just need to file a form 12?

http://www.revenue.ie/en/gains-gifts-and-inheritance/transfering-an-asset/how-do-you-pay-and-file-cgt.aspx

But when you declare, what do you declare exactly...the final amount withdrawn into Fiat, or each individual trade where you made the profit which you end up withdrawing?

I guess the whole crypto area is pretty vague due to the relative 'newness' of the technology.

I took the advanced tax P6 option while studying ACCA earlier this year and don't recall seeing them mentioned anywhere in the capital taxes sections of the course.


Edit : Maybe in years to come, Revenue will establish a special 'crypto compliance' taskforce

ToxicPaddy wrote: »

Probably some more regulation required first by central banks, financial regulators etc. Anyone i know working with financial institutions have to declare any trading they do up front and have minimum holding times etc to prevent any grey areas being entered into.

Very few have any info or procedures relating to crypto currencies as they haven't been properly regulated yet but in saying that it's probably good to be up front about these things unless you want the revenue coming knocking on your door

Taking an extended break, say somewhere like malta could also help.

Mr.S wrote: »

Nobody wants to pay tax on profits, but in the current climate there’s no getting around it,

Oh, there most certainly is !
If you allow yourself the freedom from being intimidated either consciously or unconsciously by Fear, you will discover the techniques to do so.

That was Fiat -- this is Bitcoin. There's a world of difference between the two -- and a googolplex of difficulty difference as to how Revenue can catch the Bitcoin tax evader..

Do yourself a favour by educating yourself on the new technology, its anarcho implications, and its consequences for the global financial system.
Being "old enough" on its own doesn't give you a free pass into pontificating about the necessity of paying tax. Propagandizing newcomers on here about imagined dire repercussions of keeping their bitcoin wealth details private is nothing less than spreading FUD.

I'm not even talking just about property. You can't even buy precious metals directly in bitcoin as far as I'm aware, or walk into a BMW garage with your trezor/ledger wallet. :pac:

And even if you could, they would obliged to record details of large transactions and make those details available to Revenue. If you manage to find a way to use your bitcoin to buy a Rolex in Dubai, Revenue can ask you at any time to prove it was bought with taxed income, or they take it away - just like they've done when targeting the criminal gangs.

Can I presume that pro_gnostic_8's disdain for paying tax is matched by disdain for using public services, like roads, airports, schools, hospitals etc?

Mr.S wrote: »

Sure we can always move to Malta or Germany

But really, as the previous poster said - if you want to cash out, you’ll need to declare.

More incorrect statements again, I'm afraid. One can comfortably engage in a bitcoin to cash tx without going anywhere near a bank.

I assume you've heard of Localbitcoin where you can sell your coin for cash in in-person trades with no paper, signatures or declarations whatsoever.
Then there is the Over-The-Counter market which is many multiples the size of all the exchanges which we "little people" use.
Finally, for smaller cashouts there are the offshore Bitcoin debit cards such as Xapo, TenX, Monaco. Load up with bitcoin and cash out to cash at ATM's or buy s**t with it.

Bitcoin is up $400 on reports Amazon accepting Bitcoin.
So if this is the case how can you declare profit the pay taxes in euro as Bitcoin is starting to be accepted as a currency in it's own right.

I assume you've heard of Localbitcoin where you can sell your coin for cash in in-person trades with no paper, signatures or declarations whatsoever.
Then there is the Over-The-Counter market which is many multiples the size of all the exchanges which we "little people" use.
Finally, for smaller cashouts there are the offshore Bitcoin debit cards such as Xapo, TenX, Monaco. Load up with bitcoin and cash out to cash at ATM's or buy s**t with it.

So you're going to end up with assets or lifestyle that doesn't match your declared taxed income? That's a great way to come to the attention of Revenue or CAB.

Uncle of mine sold his house in London for £350k before the refendum last year. Transferred to euros in Ireland bought a cheap house here and money he has now has a profit if he converted back to pounds. Does he have to pay tax i don't think so.
If you have Bitcoin and able to buy goods directly from bitcoin do you pay capital gains tax I can't see how that can be inforced.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So you're going to end up with assets or lifestyle that doesn't match your declared taxed income? That's a great way to come to the attention of Revenue or CAB.

You strike me as an intelligent fella; some-one who would be inventive enough to "fly under the radar" or to find ways to discreetly enjoy your new-found wealth.
Of course, there are other ways to address this issue (if it would be an issue to you) -- non-resident accounts in investor-friendly territories; buying property abroad, etc etc. But hey, I'm not here to give a 101 course in money-laundering or tax evasion. Let Google be your friend for that.

Crypto may be good for 'hodling' , speculation or as a store of wealth (esp. BTC) but at this point in history, the value is way too volatile for most businesses to accept as payment.

LoLth wrote: »

The boards.ie terms of use is that you will not post illegal material. This includes "how-tos" and encouragement to commit illegal acts.

pro_gnostic_8 : your views are your own but please respect the rules of the forum.

Noted.
Apologies for any disquiet caused.

pro_gnostic_8 wrote: »

I can't see what relevance paying a mortgage has with converting Bitcoin to cash. Honestly.
And if you "don't want to have piles of cash" why convert from BTC to cash in the first place?
You've genuinely lost me.

I don't think he's talking about paying a mortgage, he's talking about getting a mortgage - and the application process where you have to set out your income and expenditure in a fair amount of detail, and any dependence on off-the-books cash would shine through.

noel100 wrote: »

Uncle of mine sold his house in London for £350k before the refendum last year. Transferred to euros in Ireland bought a cheap house here and money he has now has a profit if he converted back to pounds. Does he have to pay tax i don't think so.

It's not to do with 'having a profit'. Unless he is trading in property as his main business, he's not 'having a profit'. I don't know the UK CGT rules, but if they are similar to here, he won't have any CGT liability from selling his principal private residence - presuming that he lived in the London house in question.

noel100 wrote: »

If you have Bitcoin and able to buy goods directly from bitcoin do you pay capital gains tax I can't see how that can be inforced.

Same way as Revenue enforce tax liability on all forms of cash transactions, under-the-counter payments, off-shore payments and more - by gathering intelligence and looking for unusual patterns of income vs expenditure.

pro_gnostic_8 wrote: »

You strike me as an intelligent fella; some-one who would be inventive enough to "fly under the radar" or to find ways to discreetly enjoy your new-found wealth.
Of course, there are other ways to address this issue (if it would be an issue to you) -- non-resident accounts in investor-friendly territories; buying property abroad, etc etc.

Lots of cute hoors who thought they had non-resident accounts in 'investor-friendly' Switzerland found themselves facing rather large tax bills when the Swiss started talking. How can you be sure that your 'investor-friendly' territority will remain 'investor-friendly'?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/two-more-swiss-banks-report-hidden-american-accounts-1433868867

And as for property abroad, Revenue share details with their counterparts abroad, so it is pretty difficult to hide stuff. If you think you're smarter than the combined resources of international tax authorities, you're probably not.

LoLth wrote: »

Th OPs understanding is correct. You are subject to capital gains tax and you are bound, by law, to declare it.

Is it actually 100% clear that CGT would apply? I was surprised at the letter from Noonan's private secretary that focused solely on CGT. If you are trading any currency (including bitcoin) for a living, then surely income tax would apply, at higher rates than CGT and with liability in the year of trading, not depending on when you cash out.

wally1990 wrote: »

Like it's seems that once the crypto is converted to EURO
CGt becomes liable but this is where the funds are directly linked to your account but what if someone is using Monero coin which is where the ending and receiving addresses as well as transacted amounts are obfuscated by default. Transactions on the Monero blockchain cannot be linked to a particular user or real-world identity as they state
What if Monero was used between different TP accounts
Surely that's tax evasion?
It's simply trying to avoid which but lord how the Revenue would catch that
Public excHnge records transfer are a mine field for a tax analyst who doesn't understand and the fiat currency and their gains of losses will not be back in your own personal current accounts but rather. TP and using Monero for transfers

I don't know anything about Monero, but doesn't the same problem arise that at some stage, you need to take funds out into the real world to use them to buy stuff?