Harvey Weinstein scandal (Mod warning in op.)

optogirl

PeterParker957 wrote: »

Getting f**king stupid now.

It's not stupid to call someone out for making you feel uncomfortable by touching you when it is not wanted.

PeterParker957

optogirl wrote: »

It's not stupid to call someone out for making you feel uncomfortable by touching you when it is not wanted.

It's stupid to constantly use the words abuse and assault when you have been neither abused nor assaulted!

PeterParker957

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Tom Sizemore (Saving Private Ryan, Natural Born Killers, True Romance etc) was apparently removed from a film set in 2003 when an 11-year-old girl said he briefly molested her.

Not sure this should be in the public domain given that it was reported to the police at the time and no charges were brought.

It most definitely should not.

optogirl

PeterParker957 wrote: »

It's stupid to constantly use the words abuse and assault when you have been neither abused nor assaulted!

Verbal abuse is mentioned in this case - somebody massaging you & stroking your hair uninvited is abuse, and it's intimidating.

PeterParker957

optogirl wrote: »

Verbal abuse is mentioned in this case - somebody massaging you & stroking your hair uninvited is abuse, and it's intimidating.

And the words are "get lost creep".

Was mine the last generation of women to be raised with balls ???

optogirl

PeterParker957 wrote: »

And the words are "get lost creep".

Was mine the last generation of women to be raised with balls ???

I don't have balls and neither does my mother so not sure which generation you're from? It's not as easy as all that - the whole 'why didn't they speak up' shi*e is fine in retrospect but every woman I know has let some creepy & downright abusive behaviour pass because it's humiliating and frightening & you feel guilty - I don't know why that is, but it's so. Careers were also very much on the line here - not an excuse but definitely a factor.

Thought this was a great blog on some of the reasons behind why a lot of women don't speak up there & then, and often never

http://www.katykatikate.com/2017/11/pro-tip-louis-****ing-ck.html

PeterParker957

optogirl wrote: »

I don't have balls and neither does my mother so not sure which generation you're from? It's not as easy as all that - the whole 'why didn't they speak up' shi*e is fine in retrospect but every woman I know has let some creepy & downright abusive behaviour pass because it's humiliating and frightening & you feel guilty - I don't know why that is, but it's so. Careers were also very much on the line here - not an excuse but definitely a factor.

Thought this was a great blog on some of the reasons behind why a lot of women don't speak up there & then, and often never

http://www.katykatikate.com/2017/11/pro-tip-louis-****ing-ck.html

Was "balls" too literal there ?

Then try - self confidence, certainty in your own self, knowing who you are and having the courage to express how you feel. I could use many more.

Or hide behind being a wallflower and blaming the non-existent patriarchy for all failings.

I prefer the former.

optogirl

PeterParker957 wrote: »

Was "balls" too literal there ?

Then try - self confidence, certainty in your own self, knowing who you are and having the courage to express how you feel. I could use many more.

Or hide behind being a wallflower and blaming the non-existent patriarchy for all failings.

I prefer the former.

What are you on about? You think all of these hollywood actors & actresses are wallflowers? Where did they blame the patriarchy? They are collectively saying that one of the guys working on the show was a handsy creep. do you honestly think that it's only the shy amongst us that gets abused just because they don't have the metaphorical balls to say no? The worst manager I ever had was a woman, a bully & a narcissist but nobody ever called her out because we wanted the job and she had her cliques & she could put a halt to your career. It's intensely intimidating & when sexual connotations come into such abuse it is really scary.

pjohnson

optogirl wrote: »

I don't have balls and neither does my mother so not sure which generation you're from?

#transphobic

PeterParker957

optogirl wrote: »

I don't have balls and neither does my mother so not sure which generation you're from? It's not as easy as all that - the whole 'why didn't they speak up' shi*e is fine in retrospect but every woman I know has let some creepy & downright abusive behaviour pass because it's humiliating and frightening & you feel guilty - I don't know why that is, but it's so. Careers were also very much on the line here - not an excuse but definitely a factor.

Thought this was a great blog on some of the reasons behind why a lot of women don't speak up there & then, and often never

http://www.katykatikate.com/2017/11/pro-tip-louis-****ing-ck.html

Oh and under no circumstances would I ever click on a pile of girly s***e such as something called "katykatikate". Emily Davidson is currently asking "Why did we bother ???"

PeterParker957

optogirl wrote: »

What are you on about? You think all of these hollywood actors & actresses are wallflowers? Where did they blame the patriarchy? They are collectively saying that one of the guys working on the show was a handsy creep.

"Collectively" - none of them had the bottle to say at the time "move that hand or lose it dickhead ?"

(FYI I phrase I have used myself).

retro:electro

I think it's all gone a bit barmy in here..

optogirl

PeterParker957 wrote: »

Oh and under no circumstances would I ever click on a pile of girly s***e such as something called "katykatikate". Emily Davidson is currently asking "Why did we bother ???"

Ok, why don't you condemn it before you've read it. Seems like a fair way to broaden your horizons. I'm sure Emily Davison* would be nodding along with a good majority of it.

optogirl

optogirl wrote: »

What are you on about? You think all of these hollywood actors & actresses are wallflowers? Where did they blame the patriarchy? They are collectively saying that one of the guys working on the show was a handsy creep.

I've only recently really considered how much is let pass. Something minor happens, you move on and get on with your life and don't think about it because no crime was committed and it was just a bit icky, and life goes on.

Then something major happens and you think back on all the little things you've just let go. It adds up. I think this is behind the explosion of voices articulating the big and the small things, it's added up and it feels safe to talk about, rather than letting it go because someone else will tell you it's not a big deal, not really, not like real problems. And it isn't, individually, but it counts.



ETA: that was much clearer inside my head!

ceadaoin.

PeterParker957 wrote: »

The problem with Weinstein and Polanski and the other hardcore pervs are that this ridiculous #metoo nonsense is detracting from the real abuse that's going on.

So people should shut up about about being groped and harrassed because other people have had it worse? Its that attitude that has allowed victims to suffer in silence and for the abuse to continue. Should people who have been raped and didn't suffer injuries shut up too because others were also beaten? No sorry that's ridiculous.

What do you consider "real abuse"?

PeterParker957

ceadaoin. wrote: »

So people should shut up about about being groped and harrassed because other people have had it worse? Its that attitude that has allowed victims to suffer in silence and for the abuse to continue. Should people who have been raped and didn't suffer injuries shut up too because others were also beaten? No sorry that's ridiculous.

What do you consider "real abuse"?

Industrial level whataboutery.

And in bold - of course it is as I didn't say that, nor would I.

The point is that innocent flirtations are now being ramped up as harrassment and harrassment as assault, it can't end well.

Men are not the enemy. Treating them as such does nothing for either sex. Women are losing the power to stand up for themselves and the younger generations coming through are going to think it is not normal for men to approach you. They need to be taught most of it is okay, a lot isn't and how to know the difference and react accordingly.

This is generally IMHO doing women a disservice - we are going backwards, not forwards. David Schwimmer recently asked a journalist if she wanted a chaperone when going to his room for an interview. In the 21st century, a bleeding chaperone!

ceadaoin.

ceadaoin. wrote: »

So people should shut up about about being groped and harrassed because other people have had it worse? Its that attitude that has allowed victims to suffer in silence and for the abuse to continue. Should people who have been raped and didn't suffer injuries shut up too because others were also beaten? No sorry that's ridiculous.

What do you consider "real abuse"?

Just because you weren't shot, doesn't mean you can't complain about being stabbed.

There is a sense that a small number of observers want to reduce the definition of abuse to only the very worst cases to justify dismissive attitudes towards the general white noise of casual harassment. It's not the same, but it counts.

retro:electro

PeterParker957 wrote: »

And the words are "get lost creep".

Was mine the last generation of women to be raised with balls ???

Where I think you're going wrong is you're judging women's action- or lack thereof- by your own standards. I get it. I've done it myself.

However, even if they had told him "fcuk off away from me you perv". Then what? Does that mitigate his inappropriate actions? Of course not. Their response or lack of is neither here nor there when judging him for his. They could have elbowed him in the nuts but it doesn't excuse or alleviate his behaviour.
It sounds totally inappropriate, and if true, he deserves to be reprimanded for that.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Candie wrote: »

I've only recently really considered how much is let pass. Something minor happens, you move on and get on with your life and don't think about it because no crime was committed and it was just a bit icky, and life goes on.

Then something major happens and you think back on all the little things you've just let go. It adds up. I think this is behind the explosion of voices articulating the big and the small things, it's added up and it feels safe to talk about, rather than letting it go because someone else will tell you it's not a big deal, not really, not like real problems. And it isn't, individually, but it counts.



ETA: that was much clearer inside my head!

For me I find that incidents at work are pretty complex. When I'm in work my reflexive reaction to any interaction really is to be polite, calm, pleasant. It can be a beat or three before my mind recalibrates to "hey hang on a second!"

Maybe a year and a half ago I was working in a street food place very briefly. The FOH manager was about my age, seemed to exclusively hire young, pretty women. I was probably the oldest there at 27. He made inappropriate comments, would find ways to touch people etc. Several times he made some remark to me, laughed, I'd smile back and then like ten seconds later be kicking myself for not reacting differently but the moment is past by then.

Now, none of this left me some quivering wreck. I was well able to manage his behaviour towards me, I've been working since I was 16 and it was far from my first rodeo. But it was still behaviour that was wrong, incredibly annoying, and created a work environment that was unpleasant specifically for the women.

After I left ran into one of the other supervisors and that manager had been sacked, the touchy feely behaviour having escalated. Aaand he didn't even stick out enough for me to have included him in stories of harassment in the metoo thread. It's just white noise.

anna080

anna080 wrote: »

Where I think you're going wrong is you're judging women's action- or lack thereof- by your own standards. I get it. I've done it myself.

However, even if they had told him "fcuk off away from me you perv". Then what? Does that mitigate his inappropriate actions? Of course not. Their response or lack of is neither here nor there when judging him for his.
It sounds totally inappropriate, and if true, he deserves to be reprimanded for that.

And if they did tell him to f-off, they could have been afraid things would escalate and get violent. You can't tell from words on a page how intimidating a situation is, you just can't decide how people should react. Whatever gets you away safely is the right thing to do.

ceadaoin.

Candie wrote: »

Just because you weren't shot, doesn't mean you can't complain about being stabbed.

There is a sense that a small number of observers want to reduce the definition of abuse to only the very worst cases to justify dismissive attitudes towards the general white noise of casual harassment. It's not the same, but it counts.

Rather than examining the attitudes that leads these men to feel entitled to harrass and abuse women, it's easier, and a default reaction for some, to blame the women for not stopping the men from doing it. Same as it ever was I suppose

Sabrina Future Burger

Sabrina Future Burger wrote: »

For me I find that incidents at work are pretty complex. When I'm in work my reflexive reaction to any interaction really is to be polite, calm, pleasant. It can be a beat or three before my mind recalibrates to "hey hang on a second!"

Maybe a year and a half ago I was working in a street food place very briefly. The FOH manager was about my age, seemed to exclusively hire young, pretty women. I was probably the oldest there at 27. He made inappropriate comments, would find ways to touch people etc. Several times he made some remark to me, laughed, I'd smile back and then like ten seconds later be kicking myself for not reacting differently but the moment is past by then.

Now, none of this left me some quivering wreck. I was well able to manage his behaviour towards me, I've been working since I was 16 and it was far from my first rodeo. But it was still behaviour that was wrong, incredibly annoying, and created a work environment that was unpleasant specifically for the women.

After I left ran into one of the other supervisors and that manager had been sacked, the touchy feely behaviour having escalated. Aaand he didn't even stick out enough for me to have included him in stories of harassment in the metoo thread. It's just white noise.

You just get on with life and put it behind you, but it still counts. It's always easy to think of the right thing to say when the opportunity has passed. There's no point in kicking yourself, he got his marching orders so someone took him to task.

I'm really just taking on board the extent of the white noise. It's absolutely not that lots of men are harassing lots of women, it's that a small number of harassers are making life unpleasant for as many women they can possibly get away with.

PeterParker957

Candie wrote: »

And if they did tell him to f-off, they could have been afraid things would escalate and get violent. You can't tell from words on a page how intimidating a situation is, you just can't decide how people should react. Whatever gets you away safely is the right thing to do.

I do take your points and @anna080 I agree you are right to a point definitely - I'm saying what I'd do - and have done.

I just find it really sad that more women don't seem to feel able to stand up for themselves at the time. I would love to see that. Maybe I'm thinking too much about an ideal that won't exist.

I also have a terrible sense that trial by social media will carry on and escalate and good people will have their lives ruined. Malicious allegations are made.

Of course anyone overstepping the mark with anyone whether they be male or female where they hold away over someone's life or career - not on and should be condemned.

I may have made my arguments badly and for anything badly said, know I apologise.

Outlaw Pete

I think what PeterParker957 is trying to say is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kB7ZZxfChfM

strandroad

PeterParker957 wrote: »

I just find it really sad that more women don't seem to feel able to stand up for themselves at the time. I would love to see that. Maybe I'm thinking too much about an ideal that won't exist.

Because we are in this terrible place between "why don't you stand up for yourself" and "why don't you laugh it off, he was only messing/drunk/old fashioned". Whatever we choose, we will be a precious bitch or a walkover to someone. And we need to make this decision on the spot.

newport2

PeterParker957 wrote: »

I just find it really sad that more women don't seem to feel able to stand up for themselves at the time. I would love to see that. Maybe I'm thinking too much about an ideal that won't exist.

My wife is well able to stand up for herself and would tell anyone where to go if they did/said something inappropriate. But even if she did this, she'd still be upset/shaken after they went on their way. So whether she stands up for herself or not, she loses.

PeterParker957

@OutlawPete

Exactly but she said it so much better than me!!!

pitifulgod

PeterParker957 wrote: »

And the words are "get lost creep".

Was mine the last generation of women to be raised with balls ???

My mother is in her seventies, she had inappropriate advances from lecturers (hands shoved down skirts etc) and all sorts of creeps but many in positions of power. She was frightened of ever mentioning it to her parents at the time as she expected she would be blamed for it. She recently told me some of these stories. All of her friends experienced similar, it wasn't that they lacked "balls".. The fact is, a better world is one in which this sort of behaviour and abuse does not happen. It's not trivial as you seem to think it is or some sort of bizarre misandry to expect a higher standard from men.

strandroad

The Atlantic gently reminds us of a certain Bill Clinton...
https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2017/11/reckoning-with-bill-clintons-sex-crimes/545729/

When the couple repeatedly reminded the crowd of their new status as grandparents it was to suggest very different associations in voters’ minds. Hillary’s grandmotherhood was evoked to suggest the next phase in her lifelong work on behalf of women and children—in this case forging a bond with the millions of American grandmothers who are doing the hard work of raising the next generation, while their own adult children muddle through life. But Bill’s being a grandfather was intended to send a different message: Don’t worry about him anymore; he’s old now. He won’t get into those messes again.

Interesting how of US presidents I personally remember (i.e. since Reagan) only GWB and Obama have no sexual allegations against them.

PeterParker957

strandroad wrote: »

The Atlantic gently reminds us of a certain Bill Clinton...
https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2017/11/reckoning-with-bill-clintons-sex-crimes/545729/

When the couple repeatedly reminded the crowd of their new status as grandparents it was to suggest very different associations in voters’ minds. Hillary’s grandmotherhood was evoked to suggest the next phase in her lifelong work on behalf of women and children—in this case forging a bond with the millions of American grandmothers who are doing the hard work of raising the next generation, while their own adult children muddle through life. But Bill’s being a grandfather was intended to send a different message: Don’t worry about him anymore; he’s old now. He won’t get into those messes again.

Interesting how of US presidents I personally remember (i.e. since Reagan) only GWB and Obama have no sexual allegations against them.

Obama because he's a good man and Dubya cos he wouldn't know what went where and for how long.