The Truth About Dairy

Worztron

Worztron

Worztron

What a messed up industry. How traumatic it must be for the cow to be continually impregnated knowing she will have to endure the painful separation over and over again. :mad:

oxygen

In 50 years we are going to look back on this and wonder how society let it continue to happen. We have moved from moderate farming, to industrialising and automating animal cruelty and suffering.

Absolutely grim grim stuff....

Worztron

oxygen wrote: »

In 50 years we are going to look back on this and wonder how society let it continue to happen. We have moved from moderate farming, to industrialising and automating animal cruelty and suffering.

Absolutely grim grim stuff....

Yes, and the odd thing is that whenever someone finds out that I don't consume dairy - they look at me as if I'd got 2 heads.

Nekarsulm

Worztron wrote: »

What a messed up industry. How traumatic it must be for the cow to be continually impregnated knowing she will have to endure the painful separation over and over again. :mad:

Do you really think that a cow is sentinent to the degree that she
1) Understands the concept of sex leading to pregnancy
2) Understands that pregnancy leads to birth
And 3) Can imagine occurrences in the future which may cause emotions experienced in the past?
All this given that the reproductive cycle in animals is triggered by seasonal and chemical/hormonal activity, and not the concepts of love etc which humans factor in.

ElKavo

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Do you really think that a cow is sentinent to the degree that she
1) Understands the concept of sex leading to pregnancy
2) Understands that pregnancy leads to birth
And 3) Can imagine occurrences in the future which may cause emotions experienced in the past?
All this given that the reproductive cycle in animals is triggered by seasonal and chemical/hormonal activity, and not the concepts of love etc which humans factor in.

Do you really think that
1) Impregnating an animal without its consent is natural?
2) Removing its newly born offspring so you can take its milk is humane?
3) Send its offspring to another country so it can be slaughtered as veal or fattened up and sold for slaughter is humane? and when parent animal is no longer a viable milk producer that you do the same with them?

In answer to your questions
1) I do not believe that cows have the capacity to understand the concept. (still doesn't give humans the right to impregnate without consent)
2) I would imagine that the concept may be foreign to them, however if you don't think that there is a maternal bond between Mother and child there might not be any hope for you.
3) Who is to say, I would again imagine that cows do have memories etc and to outright dismiss the possibility without doing any research into the field is not in any way scientific IMO and merely a method for you to justify your industry.

I read an article a while back that references peer reviewed research that leans toward cows being far more intelligent than you would care to offer them. Probably as it wouldn't suit your business.

Some of the studies referenced are
http://www.appliedanimalbehaviour.com/article/S0168-1591(12)00371-1/pdf
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168159103002946
http://www.journalofdairyscience.org/article/S0022-0302(97)76036-3/abstract
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168159112001177


Oh and to answer your other post ...

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Amazing forum.
Recipes on how to make fake crackling for your fake ham. (Mustard, brown sugar and layers of rice paper).
Why, if you are vegan at all, would you take ingredients transported halfway around the world, and disguise them to look and taste like something you would never eat in the first place?

The answer is quite simple, Most Vegans are not born Vegan, is is only after they discover the realities of what happens in any given animal industry that they choose to not consume animal products. Or any other host of reasons.

The Pig industry is IMO one of the most disgusting industries of all, that being said I was raised with pork and bacon as a part of my diet. I did like the tastes, but my palate is not near a justifiable reason for the industry and how the animals in it are abused. After all pigs are smart too, plenty of research in that field. But again I suspect you wouldn't even go and look if I posted it.

The original poster you are referring to was asking for a meal that his omni brother could enjoy. People who are newly Vegan can find comfort in the tastes and textures that they have eaten for years. I cant see how that is too hard of a concept for you to grasp.

oxygen

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Do you really think that a cow is sentinent to the degree that she
1) Understands the concept of sex leading to pregnancy
2) Understands that pregnancy leads to birth
And 3) Can imagine occurrences in the future which may cause emotions experienced in the past?
All this given that the reproductive cycle in animals is triggered by seasonal and chemical/hormonal activity, and not the concepts of love etc which humans factor in.

How could any species possibly survive if they were not “sentient to the degree that" they understood all 3 points listed above? All over the animal kingdom we see; females choosing the strongest mate to improve the genetic diversity of her offspring; males providing for pregnant females long after copulation, females teaching her offspring where to gather\hunt to ensure the offspring's survival long after her death

Absolutely cows are aware of above, it’s how the species propagates and evolves in the wild, or more so, would if we let it...

Also I note you called the cow "she" and not "it". That displays an element of empathy for the species as a hole. I believe your counter argument comes from a place of a conflicted ideology why else spend any time posting counter arguments in a Vegan forum, if there were a meat eaters appreciation thread, I know I would spend no time in it, I know I want nothing to do with meat.

Nekarsulm

oxygen wrote: »

How could any species possibly survive if they were not “sentient to the degree that" they understood all 3 points listed above? All over the animal kingdom we see; females choosing the strongest mate to improve the genetic diversity of her offspring; males providing for pregnant females long after copulation, females teaching her offspring where to gather\hunt to ensure the offspring's survival long after her death

I don't believe any species of domesticated farm animal understands the concept of sex as a vital element in the survival of the species. They reproduce simply as a result of hormonal releases causing chemical reactions in the brain.
For example, cows come "on heat" again usually 6 to 9 weeks after giving birth, and in the wild will be served by any available male of the species. This is far removed from the lofty notion that cows are distressed by the thoughts of being impregnated time after time.
In sheep breeds, they come to oestrous when the hours of daylight reduce below a certain level, normally from September onwards. Simply to ensure that the offspring are born in the springtime, thus arriving as the grass growth starts again. Again purely a chemical driven process. In cows, sheep , pigs etc there is no scenario of the male providing for the female after copulation. Swans mate for life, cows don't. Amongst the big cats of the world, where you have a pride of lions, the alpha male somehow can keep count of the time duration from his copulation with a she lion, and if she gives birth earlier or later the male will kill the cubs, as he knows they are noth his.

Absolutely cows are aware of above, it’s how the species propagates and evolves in the wild, or more so, would if we let it...

Also I note you called the cow "she" and not "it". That displays an element of empathy for the species as a hole. I believe your counter argument comes from a place of a conflicted ideology why else spend any time posting counter arguments in a Vegan forum, if there were a meat eaters appreciation thread, I know I would spend no time in it, I know I want nothing to do with meat.

I call a cow "she" because as well as having great empathy for all the animals I keep, what other descriptive noun should I use for a female?
I have a conflicted ideology because as well as being a farmer, I care about animals? That notion beggars belief, and just because I don't subscribe to the "fur baby" zoomorphic tendencies of some people, cannot be taken as evidence of disregard for the welfare of animals I own.

Worztron

White Clover

Worztron wrote: »

I hope you don't believe everything you read!

endacl

Mmmmmm...

Cheese....

davidjtaylor

endacl wrote: »

Mmmmmm...

Cheese....

So.

You’re on a veg*n forum.

How are you enlightening us? What can you contribute that is of value?

Vexorg

It’s a vegan and vegetarian forum, he may be a vegetarian who enjoys cheese.

endacl

Vexorg wrote: »

It’s a vegan and vegetarian forum, he may be a vegetarian who enjoys cheese.

I may indeed be*

Vegans are so touchy sometimes.




* Yeah. I’m not.

prinzeugen

endacl wrote: »

Mmmmmm...

Cheese....

Its not cheese its called Gary.

Tar.Aldarion

endacl wrote: »

I may indeed be*

Vegans are so touchy sometimes.




* Yeah. I’m not.

You are just trolling. If you post like that again it will not be accepted.

davidjtaylor

Vexorg wrote: »

It’s a vegan and vegetarian forum, he may be a vegetarian who enjoys cheese.

On a thread with the title…

Vexorg

Yes on a thread with the title.

gozunda

Vexorg wrote: »

Yes on a thread with the title.

The fact is that some vegans appear to dislike vegetarians as much as omnivores.

_Brian

How about service dogs for the blind ?

What’s the vegan position on that practice?

Is it an acceptable compromise or should vegan activists be ganging up on blind people in the street and releasing the dogs from their servitude ?

Tar.Aldarion

Love the passive aggressiveness. How about you think of what the answer might be and see does it align?

Nekarsulm

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Love the passive aggressiveness. How about you think of what the answer might be and see does it align?

If the "seeing eye" dogs are to be freed from their slavery, euthanasia is the obvious outcome... just like is prescribed for farm animals.

emaherx

Worztron wrote: »

You've obviously never seen cows milked. Cows will stand at the gate impatiently around milking time waiting to get in. The also fight among themselves as to which one gets to go first.

Robotic milking wouldn't work if they were tortured.

_Brian

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Love the passive aggressiveness. How about you think of what the answer might be and see does it align?

Nice sidestep of the question there

Like all animals if they are being treated well and cared for appropriately I’m happy with their position. .

Tar.Aldarion

I asked what would a vegan think in your mind, not what would you think.

Worztron

https://www.plantbasednews.org/post/dairy-farmers-refuse-filmed

Worztron

_Brian wrote: »

How about service dogs for the blind ?

What’s the vegan position on that practice?

Is it an acceptable compromise or should vegan activists be ganging up on blind people in the street and releasing the dogs from their servitude ?

Scroll down to the heading, 'What about guide dogs?': https://www.vegansociety.com/whats-new/blog/veganism-and-companion-animals

emaherx

Worztron wrote: »

https://www.plantbasednews.org/post/dairy-farmers-refuse-filmed

And you have a view on this link?

You expect farmers to welcome cameras from extreme animal activists and expect them show things the way they are and not edit the outcome to suit their own agenda?

emaherx

Worztron wrote: »

Scroll down to the heading, 'What about guide dogs?': https://www.vegansociety.com/whats-new/blog/veganism-and-companion-animals

In the future, we can hope to see more forms of animal-free help for disabled individuals, including human companions.

Ok..... What now?
Future technology maybe I can understand.
But human companions what does this even mean beyond the help humans already give each other?

_Brian

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

I asked what would a vegan think in your mind, not what would you think.

In fairness the typical vegan mind is a completely alien construct to me. This I’m trying to see where the boundaries of such an alien landscape would lie.