Canary - DO NOT BUY - Danger of relying on cloud services

TitianGerm

bk wrote: »

Third_Echelon, in fairness to you, you are a much more patient person then me! I'd be hoping mad if that happened to me.

I completely agree with you that the actual hardware is very good and agree that one of the major selling points of it is that it doesn't really look like a camera or stand out. It is perfect for using a family space to not freak out visitors. My other IP Camera, logitech circle looks 100% like a camera.

However if I was you, I'd be very cautious about investing more in this company. Personally I think the company is in serious trouble and might not exist in a few months and thus anything you invest in it might be lost.

The biggest gripe is simply how they threat their customers and how they have responded to complaints from the community. It really feels like they are losing customers as a result.

The other big problem I think they face is that they are basically a startup with basically just one product (flex, etc. are just variants on the same idea), while the market is seeing lots of new, much bigger and more diverse companies entering the same market, totally out gunning them. They are now competing with Google/Nest, Netgear/Arlo, Logitech/Circle, TP-Link Kasa Cams, etc. These companies are offering products just as good or even better, with far more diverse eco-systems and are far more likely to continue to be around for many years to come, then a small startup.

Their really isn't anything particularly special about Canary versus these companies and I think their original plan was to get bought by another company or IPO, but that is all starting to fall apart now as they haven't kept up fast enough and introduced new diverse products fast enough to keep up with all the new competition coming into the market from heavy weight companies in similar markets.

To be honest I'm really glad that Amazon has agreed to take mine back and that I won't have to deal with the uncertainty any more.

BTW You should also check out Netatmo Welcome. They have a camera that doesn't stand out too much either, similar to Canary and it supports recording video to SD Card, Dropbox or FTP.

Their really are plenty of other better options out their now IMO.

The Netatmo is down to £149 today on Amazon. Not sure how this compares to previous prices as I only came across the camera in the last few days.

Netatmo NSC01-UK Wi-Fi Home Welcome Camera with Face Recognition - Gold https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01DM0JW62/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_STo4zbK2FE4PD

bk

emmetkenny wrote: »

The Netatmo is down to £149 today on Amazon. Not sure how this compares to previous prices as I only came across the camera in the last few days.

Netatmo NSC01-UK Wi-Fi Home Welcome Camera with Face Recognition - Gold https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01DM0JW62/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_STo4zbK2FE4PD

According to camel camel, it flips between £150 and £200 a lot. It was down to £120 in the prime sales last year.

TitianGerm

bk wrote: »

According to camel camel, it flips between £150 and £200 a lot. It was down to £120 in the prime sales last year.

Theres so many options out there. For me now I think it's between a Nest or the new Circle 2.

Third_Echelon

bk wrote: »

Third_Echelon, in fairness to you, you are a much more patient person then me! I'd be hoping mad if that happened to me.

I completely agree with you that the actual hardware is very good and agree that one of the major selling points of it is that it doesn't really look like a camera or stand out. It is perfect for using a family space to not freak out visitors. My other IP Camera, logitech circle looks 100% like a camera.

However if I was you, I'd be very cautious about investing more in this company. Personally I think the company is in serious trouble and might not exist in a few months and thus anything you invest in it might be lost.

The biggest gripe is simply how they threat their customers and how they have responded to complaints from the community. It really feels like they are losing customers as a result.

The other big problem I think they face is that they are basically a startup with basically just one product (flex, etc. are just variants on the same idea), while the market is seeing lots of new, much bigger and more diverse companies entering the same market, totally out gunning them. They are now competing with Google/Nest, Netgear/Arlo, Logitech/Circle, TP-Link Kasa Cams, etc. These companies are offering products just as good or even better, with far more diverse eco-systems and are far more likely to continue to be around for many years to come, then a small startup.

Their really isn't anything particularly special about Canary versus these companies and I think their original plan was to get bought by another company or IPO, but that is all starting to fall apart now as they haven't kept up fast enough and introduced new diverse products fast enough to keep up with all the new competition coming into the market from heavy weight companies in similar markets.

To be honest I'm really glad that Amazon has agreed to take mine back and that I won't have to deal with the uncertainty any more.

BTW You should also check out Netatmo Welcome. They have a camera that doesn't stand out too much either, similar to Canary and it supports recording video to SD Card, Dropbox or FTP.

Their really are plenty of other better options out their now IMO.

Yeah, I'll be waiting a few months to see how things pan out in terms of investing more in them. At the moment I just have the one 'home' camera and I bought it about 18 months ago, so the purchase price is well eaten at this stage. If they go out of business I can move to Nest or other. Just a pity that the hardware looks so nice with Canary.

Thanks for the tip on Netatmo. That does look quite good.

I saw an ad yesterday for another company called 'SimpliSafe' https://simplisafe.com/

Look like nice products too.

bk

emmetkenny wrote: »

Theres so many options out there. For me now I think it's between a Nest or the new Circle 2.

Yes, their are literally dozens of options now. Really nothing special about Canary IMO. I think Nest versus Circle 2 would come down to if you are willing to pay a monthly subscription or not. Nest is pretty useless without a sub, but it obviously offers great integration with other Nest products and Google in general.

Circle is really good too, specially as it offers 24 hours of free recording for now anyway.

BTW here is a list of alternative ecosystems (most have multiple types of cameras):

- Nest
- Logitech Circle
- Netgear Arlo
- Blink
- Ring
- Netatmo
- Nokia Withings Home
- Cocoon
- TP Link (not out in UK yet)

And don't forget the insanely cheap Xiaomi offerings (€15!!) and hundreds of Chinese knock-offs.

It is becoming a very crowded market. I don't think some of the above will survive.

bk

Third_Echelon wrote: »

Yeah, I'll be waiting a few months to see how things pan out in terms of investing more in them. At the moment I just have the one 'home' camera and I bought it about 18 months ago, so the purchase price is well eaten at this stage. If they go out of business I can move to Nest or other. Just a pity that the hardware looks so nice with Canary.

Me too, almost 18 months, Amazon still agreed to take it back (I just have to pay P&P, totally fair), I think that is very good of them. I can now invest the money in other options today.

Third_Echelon wrote: »

I saw an ad yesterday for another company called 'SimpliSafe' https://simplisafe.com/

Look like nice products too.

Yup, I've heard of them before, but more a complete security system, then just a camera and US only, which is why I didn't mention it here. If you are looking at options like this also check out https://goabode.com, looks like a great modern smart security system, getting lots of good reviews in the US.

Also keep an eye out for the complete security systems being realised in the next three months by Nest and Blink.

This is very much a quickly developing market.

ED E

BKs "lesson" is very much my ethos for a while. Crashplan shafting me recently helped emphasise that. Soo?

Roll your own.


Many of you on here are nerdy(thats a compliment) enough to run a home server. Be it a 6U monster or a Mac Mini with 15 USB HDDs. Spin up a Hypervisor, grab a copy of Blue Iris or a similar soft NVR, configure and go.

Then you can buy cheap RSTP cameras from AliE and not worry about security concerns as they only need access to your home server which does all the clever bits. Mix and match cameras and systems. Repurpose an old goPro as a pond camera if you want. Its flexible.

TitianGerm

bk wrote: »

Yes, their are literally dozens of options now. Really nothing special about Canary IMO. I think Nest versus Circle 2 would come down to if you are willing to pay a monthly subscription or not. Nest is pretty useless without a sub, but it obviously offers great integration with other Nest products and Google in general.

Circle is really good too, specially as it offers 24 hours of free recording for now anyway.

BTW here is a list of alternative ecosystems (most have multiple types of cameras):

- Nest
- Logitech Circle
- Netgear Arlo
- Blink
- Ring
- Netatmo
- Nokia Withings Home
- Cocoon
- TP Link (not out in UK yet)

And don't forget the insanely cheap Xiaomi offerings (€15!!) and hundreds of Chinese knock-offs.

It is becoming a very crowded market. I don't think some of the above will survive.

I'm getting a Nest Thermostat with Electric Ireland so that was why I was thinking of the Nest Cameras and might add one of the Protect in the sitting room where we have the stove.

Am I correct in thinking the Nest Aware sub is €10 for your first camera and €5 per camera after that?

bk

ED E wrote: »

Be it a 6U monster or a Mac Mini with 15 USB HDDs.

I've an always on mac mini with multiple HDD's. Plus a 4 drive 8TB RAID 5 QNAP NAS

Two worries about such a setup:

1) How dependable is it? Important for a security system. Though just because something is a cloud service, doesn't mean it is dependable either as Third_Echelon found out.

2) You really need to backup the video to your own cloud service too. Thieves might steal your NAS/Mac Mini.

Their is something to say for easy to set up systems, but I totally get your point.

bk

emmetkenny wrote: »

I'm getting a Nest Thermostat with Electric Ireland so that was why I was thinking of the Nest Cameras and might add one of the Protect in the sitting room where we have the stove.

Am I correct in thinking the Nest Aware sub is €10 for your first camera and €5 per camera after that?

Yes, that is my understanding. Gives you 10 days of recording.

BTW I haven't gotten one yet, but Nest Protect does seem great.

TitianGerm

bk wrote: »

Yes, that is my understanding. Gives you 10 days of recording.

BTW I haven't gotten one yet, but Nest Protect does seem great.

Three cameras would be perfect for me to cover downstairs so I'd be paying €20 a month. If Nest release their alarm system here I'd probably take that as well and get rid of Phonewatch.

bk

emmetkenny wrote: »

Three cameras would be perfect for me to cover downstairs so I'd be paying €20 a month. If Nest release their alarm system here I'd probably take that as well and get rid of Phonewatch.

They said it will come to Europe next year. A few things to note:

- They announced a package in the US:
A Nest Secure starter pack plus Nest Cam Outdoor will be available on nest.com and at Best Buy for $598, a $100 discount

- Mobile GSM backup is $50 per year

- Monitoring service is through a separate company. Though I assume you can self monitor along with Nest Aware.

BTW How much are you paying for Phonewatch, I hear it is something like €400 per year, that is simply mad!!

TitianGerm

bk wrote: »

They said it will come to Europe next year. A few things to note:

- They announced a package in the US:
A Nest Secure starter pack plus Nest Cam Outdoor will be available on nest.com and at Best Buy for $598, a $100 discount

- Mobile GSM backup is $50 per year

- Monitoring service is through a separate company. Though I assume you can self monitor along with Nest Aware.

BTW How much are you paying for Phonewatch, I hear it is something like €400 per year, that is simply mad!!

Yea that's the package I read about, the monitoring was done with ADT.

I pay €35 a month. We signed up when we moved in and wanted something quick and hassle free. I only realised after that we don't own the sensors.

bk

Actually in the US it is some crowd called MONI, however I ouldn't be surprised if it was ADT in Europe.

But here is the question, is monitoring worth it? Is their much point to monitoring services when you can do powerful self monitoring yourself?

TitianGerm

bk wrote: »

Actually in the US it is some crowd called MONI, however I ouldn't be surprised if it was ADT in Europe.

But here is the question, is monitoring worth it? Is their much point to monitoring services when you can do powerful self monitoring yourself?

If there was mobile & battery back up I'd probably leave the monitoring.

bk

emmetkenny wrote: »

If there was mobile & battery back up I'd probably leave the monitoring.

12 hour battery backup and GSM monitoring is an optional $50

TitianGerm

bk wrote: »

12 hour battery backup and GSM monitoring is an optional $50

Yea it makes sense to drop the Phonewatch and spend the €1000 (including extra sensors etc) and have the system pay for itself in two - three years.

J.pilkington

That’s something that has been on my mind when ordering stuff. We are assuming that these start ups who are not currently unsustainable in the long term based on their current business models will somehow manage to become profit making, otherwise they will continuously need funding / change their business model or even go bankrupt leaving us with useless gadgets.

In the last 18mths I’ve spent probably €1500 on these type of home automation gadgets, all of which rely on the manufacturers to continue to support whether it’s security updates or cloud features, but I’m not actually paying anything beyond the initial purchase price so it doesn’t make sense. When buying these luxury items my “man maths” was based on getting a number of years use from them so I’ll be disappointed if I’m left with gadgets I can’t use.

It’s a very tough time industry for these startups where whey need to continuously produce innovate products so their spend on r&d is huge.

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057746965/1/#post103661965

bk

You are right J.pilkington and as a result I'm increasingly shying away from start-ups and instead prefer to invest in systems from well established companies, with long histories in industries related to the smart area they are entering.

A good example of this is Philips. A leader in the manufacture of standard LED bulbs. Been around for years and massive range of specialist lighting. I feel pretty confident they will be around for the long haul in smart lighting.

Google Home, Amazon Alexa, I've no worries, big companies, seem to be going all in on this.

Logitech Harmony, been building smart remotes for years and clear leaders, plus Logitech has been making PC peripherals for decades and has a very broad range of products.

I kind of suspect the same for Logitech Circle, Logitech have been making webcams for years, so this seems like an easy and obvious market for them.

Nest looked a bit rough a few months ago, but with new leadership and lots of new products announced recently, things are looking much better for them and of course they have the backing of Google.

Other then Canary, my only personal concern is with my Netatmo Thermostat, Netatmo are a start-up, but they seem to have moved beyond the initial start-up phase and have a relatively broad range of products, so seem to be ok. Anyway, it only cost me €99 so I can't complain.

However in future I'll certainly be considering the company I'm investing in. I don't think I'll invest in start-ups any more, either well established companies or super cheap (e.g. Xiaomi).

BTW the issue is mostly with cameras with cloud storage. The problem is video uses the greatest amount of bandwidth and storage and is thus costly.

Things like smart lights, smart plugs, etc. really shouldn't be using much in the way of cloud resources. The commands they send are in a few kb range. Really no excuse for the cost of the cloud services not to be integrated into the upfront cost of the product.

Though I do have a preference for systems that aren't wifi only and have their own hub for most of the local commands, e.g. Philips Hue, etc.

In addition to Canary, I'd be a little concerned with Ring and Blink.

Third_Echelon

Third_Echelon wrote: »

I'm US based and they grandfathered my subscription no problem after I complained. That was October last year (12 months ago).

They said that in April 2017 that it would go from $4.99 to $9.99, but they never did increase it. Still paying $4.99 per month for full features.

They do seem to be slow at bringing out features, but after doing a lot of research at the time I bought it, I felt it was the best option.

The recent cloud issues did impact me though. Unfortunately my apartment was burgled right in the middle of the issues. I got the notification around 30 minutes late and only got 1 minute of video out of a 3 minute robbery. It was enough to show what was happening, but I still would have liked the full 3 minutes.

I work in IT, so I understand that issues like this happen sometimes. It's more about the response afterwards and what they do to rectify things that matters in terms of goodwill going forward. I'm willing to give them a chance.

I am thinking about getting the Canary flex to improve security (just installed the Ring Video doorbell 2 as well), but I will give it a couple of months I think to see how Canary bounce back from this.

I do like them as a company and their hardware product is very good. The main reason that I did buy it in the first place was that the device itself blending in quite well (looks like an air freshener or something) and the monthly fee was a decent price.

After being burgled, I don't care what price they charge. You can't put a price on safety. I'd happily pay the $10 per month (or $15 for multiple devices).

Time will tell, but I'll update on their response here.

Bit of an update. Canary engineers were looking into the 'missing' time from the video of the robbery in my apartment. They managed to find an additional 30 seconds which was great. Shows a bit more of what happened and they looked right at the camera! Unfortunately, the had the lower half of their face covered, but it showed build and what they were wearing etc a lot better.

A little bit of positive news from them anyway I suppose.

Stoner

Third_Echelon wrote:

A little bit of positive news from them anyway I suppose.

Hi

There is a canary thread here.

This is more of a moany thread, where users like me moan about the camera.

adox

adox wrote: »

I’m looking at the Arlo Q as a replacement.
Still research8ng but that seems the best option for me at the moment.

Honestly, with the Canary, the room temperature and air quality features for me were totally inconsequential and felt gimmicky.

Just to update on this, I ordered the Arlo Q today from Amazon. As per my post in the bargains thread it’s down from £149 or £119 today.

adox

adox wrote: »

Just to update on this, I ordered the Arlo Q today from Amazon. As per my post in the bargains thread it’s down from £149 or £119 today.

Another update. Got my refund through today from Amazon after returning the Canary unit.

Oh and Arlo Q is due for delivery today.

adox

Got an email from Canary today(generic) which they seem to be trying to back track a little with their recent changes.

I emailed them back telling them it was too little too late and that I had returned the unit to Amazon for a full refund and bought a competitors product.

TitianGerm

adox wrote: »

I emailed them back telling them it was too little too late and that I had returned the unit to Amazon for a full refund and bought a competitors product.

I did the same 😂

bk

I got the same email and I have to say I think the CEO of this company is quiet insulting to the intelligence of his customers. He keeps saying that their competitors offer less on their free plans which is a clear lie. He has said this a few times and he says it again in the email:

In contrast to our primary competitors who offer their customers no video in their free plans, we’re not only continuing to provide video notifications but upgrading them with longer 30-second clips (effective immediately)

This is clearly a massive lie. The only competitor who offers less is Nest and of course they have a premium product with a whole different level of products and integration between them and Google services.

Every single one of their other competitors offer some level of free cloud recording:

- Amazon Cloud Camera - 24 hours
- Logitech Circle Camera - 24 hours
- TP Link Kasa Camera - 2 days
- Netgear Arlo Camera - 7 days

etc. etc.

To be honest, the dishonesty that comes from this guy every time he writes just pisses me off and I'm so glad to be rid of them.

paulbok

Maybe forward his email to the competitors and let them call him out on that?

vienne86

emmetkenny wrote: »

The Netatmo is down to £149 today on Amazon. Not sure how this compares to previous prices as I only came across the camera in the last few days.

Netatmo NSC01-UK Wi-Fi Home Welcome Camera with Face Recognition - Gold https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01DM0JW62/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_STo4zbK2FE4PD

I was about to fork out for a Canary, but thanks to Amazon reviews and comments here, it's off my shopping list. Anyone got any thoughts on this Netatmo?

bk

vienne86 wrote: »

I was about to fork out for a Canary, but thanks to Amazon reviews and comments here, it's off my shopping list. Anyone got any thoughts on this Netatmo?

Reviews for it seem decent, but it doesn't have the same cloud options as Canary without you setting up your own Dropbox/ftp solution, but that may well suit you.

I'm quiet liking my Logitech Circle and Circle 2. But of course no guarantees on the ongoing cloud storage for free.

adox

adox wrote: »

Just to update on this, I ordered the Arlo Q today from Amazon. As per my post in the bargains thread it’s down from £149 or £119 today.

Sorry to dig this old thread up but, I may be in the market for a new camera option again.
The Arlo Q has decided to disconnect from my network and no matter what I try it just wont re-connect. The connection was always a little flakey but it never disconnected permanently. Ive spent 3 hours trying every tip under the sun, re-booting, resetting everything etc but to no avail.

I was on to Amazon earlier and they have already sent me a return sticker so I think it may have to go back.

Anyone got any recommendations for a camera for similar purpose? I aint having much luck with them.