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Where is the money coming from?

  • 26-09-2017 11:10am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 153 ✭✭ dahayeser


    Just looking at the real figures here not the attendances they call out at Pro14 fixtures. I recall sitting in Thomond on a freezing cold winters day against the Dragons. I'd say if there was 3k people in the ground it was as much as there was. They announced the official attendance as 12k. That would have meant someone in every second seat. There wasn't one in every 20th seat and the end terraces were closed. Now I get it they are announcing the bums on seats + the number of season tickets sold. Munster, Leinster and Ulster all sell around 10,000 season tickets per year. That Season ticket money is long accounted for though. All provinces need more of a walk up crowd.

    Connaught had 4,500 at their game against Cardiff. Munster attendances are often between 4-8k in Thomond for a uninspiring fixtures which lets be honest most of the Pro14 games are often played against average opposition with many front-line stars missing. Leinster often get around 10k in to the RDS. Obviously a good Glasgow or Osperys team or the first visit of a new South African side might nudge those figures up a bit. The Inter Pro games then provide valuable windfalls.

    Still season tickets are cheap there are only 11 / 12 home games in the league + the home European games, when you think what the big stars are on. for example Johnny Sexton on a reported 500k per year and I would imagine each province would have about 50 professional staff there needs to be serious money available just to cover costs.

    I know there is TV money fro the PRO14 and Europe but there are huge travelling expenses too. Look at Cork City FC, they are drawing crowds of 5k per game with 16 home league games + cup and Europe yet they can still only pay 15 to 20 staff very small wages by comparison. Some are on 9 month contracts too where they don't they have to draw social welfare during the off season.

    The national team finances most of this and the IRFU nailed it early with the provincial model but but there is a huge and growing draw on resources to compete these days is it sustainable?


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Comments

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,299 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Dravokivich


    Comes from Competition sponsorship. There's an issue at the moment regarding who's going to sponsor the 6 nations as RBS don't seem to be interested in the price presented to them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 98 ✭✭✭ tooManyChoices


    A lot of the bigger earning players are one central contracts so will be paid for by the IRFU.

    The IRFU also gives each province several million per year.

    Other than that you have the normal revenue streams: tickets, jerseys, tv, sponsorship, food/drink (for some)

    On tickets: a Leinster v Zebre match might not spin much profit but that's more than off-set by the bigger earning days.
    It's the average that counts and average Leinster home pro12 game attendance last year was 15,579, Ulster and Munster were similar.

    At a very rough guess that's about 5-6 million(gross) Euros, before you play any European games.
    Anything in the Aviva has them laughing all the way to the bank.

    Comparing to Cork City: they seem to have fairly healthy numbers, but look at the ticket prices - they charge 5-15 for tickets with a family pass for 32. A match in the RDS is 10-60, average at a guess about 25-30? So A province will get 5x money from ticket sales on league matches, a lot more tv money, a lot more sponsorship money, a hell of a lot more support from the NGB, a lot more tv/ticket money from European involvement and have some of their wages paid for by the national team.


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,978 irishbucsfan


    The majority of revenue comes from the 6 Nations. Another portion from European rugby. Cork City wouldn't earn anything like the 10s of millions that the IRFU do annually from those competitions. The Pro 14 is a small earner in comparison to its French/English equivalent.

    There is very much a huge draw on resources and the IRFU's biggest battle is against increasing wage inflation led by big spenders in England/France, but they just about manage to be profitable in spite of it most years (although not last year). Brexit would be a big worry as well but it might be offset by the fact English clubs will have their spending power diminished.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,716 ✭✭✭ Utah_Saint


    The French/English leagues earn most of their money from TV deals and some creative accounting for some teams.  Comes down to population size and interest in the sport


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 98 ✭✭✭ tooManyChoices


    Utah_Saint wrote: »
    The French/English leagues earn most of their money from TV deals and some creative accounting for some teams.  Comes down to population size and interest in the sport

    The other thing to keep in mind is that most of the french/english teams simply aren't even close to breaking even.

    They're very hush-hush about publishing figures but I think it's something like 3 premiership sides actually balancing their books. Exeter have very healthy finances but Saracens are tens of millions in debt. Teams are either running up huge debts in the bank or have sugar-daddies.

    I really, really don't see how the English/French system is sustainable and I'm always mystified by how so many seem to hold them up as something to be aimed for. It's certainly not like their rugby is more entertaining either...


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 Former Former


    dahayeser wrote: »
    The national team finances most of this and the IRFU nailed it early with the provincial model but but there is a huge and growing draw on resources to compete these days is it sustainable?

    There isn't though. The IRFU as a whole runs a surplus most years (last year was an exception).

    If the Six Nations doesn't get a sponsor, that might throw a spanner in the works.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,721 Erik Shin


    Thomond park is very underutilized imo...it's perfect for summer concerts and whoever is in charge of corporate gigs should really start hitting that....I do see.that the Baabaas v Tonga game will be played there in a few months.....I can't see that being even half full tbh unless there are quite a few Munster players called up...and maybe stringer etc.... but I digress... money can be made from the ground...it's being way, way underutilized


  • Registered Users Posts: 153 ✭✭ dahayeser


    Comparing to Cork City: they seem to have fairly healthy numbers, but look at the ticket prices - they charge 5-15 for tickets with a family pass for 32. A match in the RDS is 10-60, average at a guess about 25-30? So A province will get 5x money from ticket sales on league matches, a lot more tv money, a lot more sponsorship money, a hell of a lot more support from the NGB, a lot more tv/ticket money from European involvement and have some of their wages paid for by the national team.

    It cost me €40 for 2 adults and 2 kids in Thomond for a Pro12 game so the difference isn't huge aside from Champions Cup or Inter Pro games.

    While the average attendances for the Pro12 games sound good this is based on about 10k heavily discounted pre sold season tickets. The amount inside the ground is often significantly smaller than the announced attendance, sometimes as little as a third in Thomond so the top up in finances on game day is quiet small.

    There is money coming from various sources, the Italians and now the South Africans all throw in a few bob for the privilege of part taking, the TV rights are worth a bit but the IRFU must be subsidising Munster (that's the one I'd know best) to a huge extent. It's great that they are but is it sustainable at the rate wages are rising. Out side of season ticket holders you might have 2/3k walk up crowd to Thomond for a non glamour Pro14 game, paying an average of €15 each. That's between 30 and 45k of additional income every second week. It could take 6 or 7 of these to pay Jaco Taute alone!

    Fair enough the figures jump big time for Leinster and to an extent Ulster, Connaught visits. It is still serious pressure on the IRFU coffers there they must be picking up 80% of the tab. I wonder is this sustainable long term.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,299 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Dravokivich


    dahayeser wrote: »
    Fair enough the figures jump big time for Leinster and to an extent Ulster, Connaught visits. It is still serious pressure on the IRFU coffers there they must be picking up 80% of the tab. I wonder is this sustainable long term.

    That's why there is some concern at the moment for getting a sponsor for the 6 nations.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,067 ✭✭✭ ClanofLams


    Thomond is an awkward size for concerts or events, it needs a superstar to fill it. Probably easier to sell out Lansdowne even though it's 17,000 bigger. Andy Lee had to cancel a world championship fight booked in Thomond a couple of years ago. I think the official line was injury but it wasn't rescheduled for Thomond.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,721 Erik Shin


    ClanofLams wrote: »
    Thomond is an awkward size for concerts or events, it needs a superstar to fill it. Probably easier to sell out Lansdowne even though it's 17,000 bigger. Andy Lee had to cancel a world championship fight booked in Thomond a couple of years ago. I think the official line was injury but it wasn't rescheduled for Thomond.

    It couldn't be rescheduled for Thomond as the fight was just before Xmas...and there was a game scheduled for a week after...not going to happen... ticket sales were well on target for the original fight.
    17k isn't superstar territory...during the summer you had people like Eddie Vedder and Elton John playing a tent in cork . That's a massive market that can be tapped into


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 98 ✭✭✭ tooManyChoices


    dahayeser wrote: »
    It cost me €40 for 2 adults and 2 kids in Thomond for a Pro12 game so the difference isn't huge aside from Champions Cup or Inter Pro games.

    While the average attendances for the Pro12 games sound good this is based on about 10k heavily discounted pre sold season tickets. The amount inside the ground is often significantly smaller than the announced attendance, sometimes as little as a third in Thomond so the top up in finances on game day is quiet small.

    That's between 30 and 45k of additional income every second week. It could take 6 or 7 of these to pay Jaco Taute alone!

    Fair enough the figures jump big time for Leinster and to an extent Ulster, Connaught visits. It is still serious pressure on the IRFU coffers there they must be picking up 80% of the tab. I wonder is this sustainable long term.

    Fair enough about the season tickets being discounted, but even if they don't turn up they're still paying.

    The bill for Thomond Park has been tough for Munster's cash flow for the last few years but long term it'll be money very well spent. Owning the venue means that they get the profits from bars/food and other events. Comparing this to leinster who get nothing(?) from match-day food and other events, Munster end up with better earning potential.

    RE: IRFU subsidy - it's a mutually beneficial deal. The IRFU earn most of their money on the back of the Irish team. If the provinces weren't there or weren't as strong the the IRFU wouldn't have the players, the product to sell and would have little income. I'd much rather a deal like that than be relying on the whims of a wealthy fan.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,711 ✭✭✭✭ Interested Observer


    Erik Shin wrote: »
    It couldn't be rescheduled for Thomond as the fight was just before Xmas...and there was a game scheduled for a week after...not going to happen... ticket sales were well on target for the original fight.
    17k isn't superstar territory...during the summer you had people like Eddie Vedder and Elton John playing a tent in cork . That's a massive market that can be tapped into

    Surely Cork with it's much larger population than Limerick is why the concerts are going there.

    A concert on a week before a game is not a problem. Happens in Croke Park plenty.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,278 ✭✭✭✭ AdamD


    OPs figures are way off anyway, Leinster's attendances last season were:

    Club Home
    Games Total Average Highest Lowest % Capacity
    Ireland Leinster 12 186,951 15,579 40,527 10,792 72%

    So instead of occasionally getting 10,000, there lowest attendance was above 10,000..


  • Registered Users Posts: 153 ✭✭ dahayeser


    AdamD wrote: »
    OPs figures are way off anyway, Leinster's attendances last season were:

    Club Home
    Games Total Average Highest Lowest % Capacity
    Ireland Leinster 12 186,951 15,579 40,527 10,792 72%

    So instead of occasionally getting 10,000, there lowest attendance was above 10,000..

    My point is these figures aren't related to actual attendances. They include season ticket holders (of which there are about 10k) whether they are present or not.

    In Thomond for many Pro14 games you might get a third of these season ticket holders showing up plus another thousand or 2. I understand the income is already in the bank but season tickets have bought discounted tickets and you aren't making a cent from them on match day through match programs or anything else..


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,978 irishbucsfan


    dahayeser wrote: »
    My point is these figures aren't related to actual attendances. They include season ticket holders (of which there are about 10k) whether they are present or not.

    Incorrect. It used to be that way however.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,721 Erik Shin


    Surely Cork with it's much larger population than Limerick is why the concerts are going there.

    A concert on a week before a game is not a problem. Happens in Croke Park plenty.

    It couldn't be rescheduled for Thomond, it was scheduled for October and then reset for November... but fairly Thomond is an easy place to get to if you want a gig....just needs the right marketing, the concerts in cork would have had people travel from all over the land .. Limerick is no harder to get to than cork


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 Former Former


    dahayeser wrote: »
    My point is these figures aren't related to actual attendances. They include season ticket holders (of which there are about 10k) whether they are present or not.

    In Thomond for many Pro14 games you might get a third of these season ticket holders showing up plus another thousand or 2. I understand the income is already in the bank but season tickets have bought discounted tickets and you aren't making a cent from them on match day through match programs or anything else..

    I'm not sure the discount for season tickets is as much as you think.

    However, selling a season ticket guarantees you that money. It's much better to sell 10,000 season tickets at a 10% discount (for example) than to be relying on the same 10,000 people to turn up paying full price every week - because they won't.


  • Registered Users Posts: 153 ✭✭ dahayeser


    Incorrect. It used to be that way however.

    Nope I'm not, certainly not at Munster games anyway. I was at Munster v Cheetahs, there was a fine crowd there due to the novelty factor and it being the first game of the season, probably close to 10k but no where near the 15,144 announced. With both terraces closed would need nearly every seat occupied to hit that figure and there were loads unoccupied.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,711 ✭✭✭✭ Interested Observer


    dahayeser wrote: »
    My point is these figures aren't related to actual attendances. They include season ticket holders (of which there are about 10k) whether they are present or not.

    If you're asking where the money is coming from, and all these tickets are paid for up front (which they are), does it matter if the person goes to the match or not?

    €15 is also not nearly the average ticket price. I have the cheapest season ticket in the RDS and it works out at about €20 a match, I don't think it's possible for an adult to go to a game in the RDS for any less than that.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 37,978 irishbucsfan


    dahayeser wrote: »
    Nope I'm not, certainly not at Munster games anyway. I was at Munster v Cheetahs, there was a fine crowd there due to the novelty factor and it being the first game of the season, probably close to 10k but no where near the 15,144 announced. With both terraces closed would need nearly every seat occupied to hit that figure and there were loads unoccupied.

    I was referring to Leinster games. Which was the number being referenced.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,067 ✭✭✭ ClanofLams


    Erik Shin wrote: »
    It couldn't be rescheduled for Thomond as the fight was just before Xmas...and there was a game scheduled for a week after...not going to happen... ticket sales were well on target for the original fight.
    17k isn't superstar territory...during the summer you had people like Eddie Vedder and Elton John playing a tent in cork . That's a massive market that can be tapped into


    Maybe they were but I was looking at them at the time and they didn't seem to be moving to the degree expected.

    In relation to the 17k I meant Thomond can fit 30k+ for concerts, it's probably as easy or easier to sell an extra 17/18k for Lansdowne Road so Thomond doesn't make a lot of sense from a commercial standpoint.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,721 Erik Shin


    ClanofLams wrote: »
    Maybe they were but I was looking at them at the time and they didn't seem to be moving to the degree expected.

    In relation to the 17k I meant Thomond can fit 30k+ for concerts, it's probably as easy or easier to sell an extra 17/18k for Lansdowne Road so Thomond doesn't make a lot of sense from a commercial standpoint.

    Course it makes sense, the INEC in Killarney does very well and it's not easy to get too at all.... plenty of scope for Thomond to develop the idea and get some gigs for the summer


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,067 ✭✭✭ ClanofLams


    Erik Shin wrote: »
    Course it makes sense, the INEC in Killarney does very well and it's not easy to get too at all.... plenty of scope for Thomond to develop the idea and get some gigs for the summer

    Yeah but the INEC fits a few thousand doesn't it?

    It needs big acts to get 30,000+ into Thomond and they might often find it easier to sell 50k in Dublin than 30k in Limerick.

    Acts don't wanna play to half full stadiums and stadiums mightn't find such events that profitable.

    So it is an awkward size unless a big name is doing a bit of a tour like Springsteen did a few years back.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,721 Erik Shin


    ClanofLams wrote: »
    Yeah but the INEC fits a few thousand doesn't it?

    It needs big acts to get 30,000+ into Thomond and they might often find it easier to sell 50k in Dublin than 30k in Limerick.

    Acts don't wanna play to half full stadiums and stadiums mightn't find such events that profitable.

    So it is an awkward size unless a big name is doing a bit of a tour like Springsteen did a few years back.

    That ginger lad is doing a half dozen gigs in Ireland..they could have had. One there...it's been mentioned for Pearl Jam to do a gig....there are not than enough acts around to fill it, it's nuts about promotion and marketing...as I said... Tonga v the Baabaa's isn't going to make money for Munster rugby


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,067 ✭✭✭ ClanofLams


    Erik Shin wrote: »
    That ginger lad is doing a half dozen gigs in Ireland..they could have had. One there...it's been mentioned for Pearl Jam to do a gig....there are not than enough acts around to fill it, it's nuts about promotion and marketing...as I said... Tonga v the Baabaa's isn't going to make money for Munster rugby

    Ed Sheehan would have sold it out alright.

    Not so sure about Pearl Jam, not even Bob Dylan sold out Thomond. The few concerts that have been there haven't done very well. You would have to imagine this has been examined and that the conclusion is the market just isn't there.

    And if wasn't there previously the renovated Pairc Ui Chaoimh certainly won't help the situation.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,721 Erik Shin


    ClanofLams wrote: »
    Ed Sheehan would have sold it out alright.

    Not so sure about Pearl Jam, not even Bob Dylan sold out Thomond. The few concerts that have been there haven't done very well. You would have to imagine this has been examined and that the conclusion is the market just isn't there.

    And if wasn't there previously the renovated Pairc Ui Chaoimh certainly won't help the situation.

    Market is there, make no mistake, but it's all about having the correct people in place.. there is a new corporate marketing person to be appointed, hopefully par of their remit is to draw I'm additional revenue streams ...as I said...just look to the INEC..5k...draws top names in music and comedy and all thomond had to do is 3 gigs a year ..the pearl jam idea is a flyer, but no concerts in Europe for 8 months...but oh so easy to market to American starts..fjy into Shannon ..do a gig ...fly out the next day...it can be that easy.... developments in cork are irrelevant.. as I said m.. we'll see what kind of crowds come to the Tonga game


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,067 ✭✭✭ ClanofLams


    The inec is irrelevant, what's happening in a 5k venue doesn't matter for Thomond. A venue which fits an extra 10k just over an hour up the road is very relevant, if you can fill Thomond, you can almost certainly fill Pairc Ui Chaoimh with the bigger market there and make significantly more money.

    There are very few acts that could fill Thomond and those who can, it makes more sense to play bigger venues. Barring an Irish tour for a major act which don't happen very frequently, it is difficult to see many concerts being held in Thomond in the future.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,721 Erik Shin


    ClanofLams wrote: »
    The inec is irrelevant, what's happening in a 5k venue doesn't matter for Thomond. A venue which fits an extra 10k just over an hour up the road is very relevant, if you can fill Thomond, you can almost certainly fill Pairc Ui Chaoimh with the bigger market there and make significantly more money.

    There are very few acts that could fill Thomond and those who can, it makes more sense to play bigger venues. Barring an Irish tour for a major act which don't happen very frequently, it is difficult to see many concerts being held in Thomond in the future.

    Of course it makes sense! If it's marketed correctly, there are a multitude of acts who can fill Thomond, the gaa venue has nothing to do with it...it should be sold on its own merits...the INEC is relevant in so far as it's less accessible...and still does well....and a lot of the acts do 3, 4 or more shows there, ...an outdoor venue that is marketed properly could be a money market for Thomond and the IRFU... instead...it's a mid season Tongan game...
    But look, I'll leave it there until we see a packed TP that night


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,067 ✭✭✭ ClanofLams


    Erik Shin wrote: »
    Of course it makes sense! If it's marketed correctly, there are a multitude of acts who can fill Thomond, the gaa venue has nothing to do with it...it should be sold on its own merits...the INEC is relevant in so far as it's less accessible...and still does well....and a lot of the acts do 3, 4 or more shows there, ...an outdoor venue that is marketed properly could be a money market for Thomond and the IRFU... instead...it's a mid season Tongan game...
    But look, I'll leave it there until we see a packed TP that night

    To clarify, I am not at all suggesting that the Tonga game will do well.

    Just saying it's not a good fit for concerts, there's no incentive to do a smaller arena in Limerick when you can sell out a bigger one in Cork/Dublin.

    It needs a major act doing an Irish tour. Even then, they may decide that a few concerts in both Galway and Cork is a better option, as Sheeran did.


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