Making the jump (again?)

ainsyjnr

I currently have a 190km round trip commute which I do in a 2011 diesel. I have worked out that for the same monthly cost I could get a 2018 leaf. (Car loan, diesel, tax, maintenance, trade in value) with a bit of extra cash.

I already own a leaf and am not sure to go double electric or trade that in and swap the diesel for a hybrid. This does not impact my decision other than I am a current ev user.

I believe that having a new leaf will be better in the long run as it will cost the same but will have better residual value plus there is less risk for expensive maintenance bills on a newer ev vs a 6 year old diesel. Plus I am not spewing filth into the air.

I am not sure whether to commit to a new ev now when I know better (and more expensive) is on the horizon, even for the leaf. Or wait until a second hand 40kw becomes available in a a few years. I would love to have a new car though!

Head vs heart.

Is it worth having the commitment of the new car (and finance) when you are not saving money? Just getting a new, more luxurious, better for the environment, metal box to spend 2.5 hours a day in?

I appreciate any thoughts!
Thanks.

Soarer

If it's not costing you anything extra, and it suits your needs, I think you'd be mental not to go for a new ev.

unkel

+1

Make sure you get the optional ProPilot. The similar system in my Ioniq makes a difference for me in busy motorway traffic and I only do average mileage. I can only imagine the huge difference it would make on a 190km commute. All money equal and you will have more equity in your car, you will have a much more relaxed commute and you help save the environment. Surely a win-win situation!

thierry14

Will the new Leaf even do 190km at motorway speeds?

What about in a year or 2 with degradatation

One of the guys here with an I3 has lost 7% range in 2 years with similar mileage and the i3 has a proper liquid cooling, not air like the Leaf which will be even worse

It is motorway commute op?

Mooooo

Are we second hand model s available in UK yet at prices similar to a new car here? Or is the grant too Much of a jump? I assume vet can't be that high on them . With that much time in a car would it be worth checking g out

KCross

thierry14 wrote: »

... and the i3 has a proper liquid cooling, not air like the Leaf which will be even worse

In Ireland I don't think it matters, from a degradation perspective, whether you have active or passive cooling unless you need to regularly do several rapid charges in the one day

The cooling only matters if the battery gets hot which doesn't happen much in this country and in any case the Leaf just restricts power if/when it does so it doesn't harm the battery.

Active cooling matters in hot climates.

Degradation just happens with age.

The Leaf 24 Kwh doesn't need active cooling in Ireland mostly because the charging power is restricted , a lot. Not so much on the 30 Kwh which makes it warm up faster the effects of which are unknown at this time.

Multiple DC charges will still make a 24 Kwh Leaf battery get quiet hot.

Degradation happens with various things, time spent at xx temp, time spent at xx charge % + and charge % - , Chemistry, aggressive driving and braking, time and also quality of construction and materials used.

Of course as batteries hold much more charge then it all becomes much less relevant because a 20% loss in capacity won't be a huge deal.

If I remember correctly the original Model S prototype still has above 80% capacity after 300,000 miles.

I have 2 old laptops with old Skool Li chemistry, 7-8 years old with 70-75% capacity. If you have a battery with 100+ Kwh this is no big deal.

ainsyjnr

thierry14 wrote: »

Will the new Leaf even do 190km at motorway speeds?

What about in a year or 2 with degradatation

It is motorway commute op?

It's about 50 % at 100kph, 40% 80kph snd 10% 120kph.

My main concern is come winter that 150mile range becomes too close to the 118 mile journey, especially when raining.

ainsyjnr

Mooooo wrote: »

Are we second hand model s available in UK yet at prices similar to a new car here? Or is the grant too Much of a jump? I assume vet can't be that high on them . With that much time in a car would it be worth checking g out

Cheapest at the moment is 40k GBP. You would still get hit with vrt though. Still out of my price bracket at the moment.

thierry14

ainsyjnr wrote: »

It's about 50 % at 100kph, 40% 80kph snd 10% 120kph.

My main concern is come winter that 150mile range becomes too close to the 118 mile journey, especially when raining.

I'd say that journey would be no prob, ideal really

New Leaf will do more than 150mile with handy driving on your commute

It's the motorway that will kill the new Leaf, will be no better than the Ioniq

ted1

Will you be able to charge the 2 ev's at the sane time ? Or will there be queues in the drive ?

there's no point speculating until the updated leaf is driven in this island , at least wait for the EPA test result.

ainsyjnr

ted1 wrote: »

Will you be able to charge the 2 ev's at the sane time ? Or will there be queues in the drive ?

Haha. I have a 32a at the moment so hoping to get the free basic charger installed with new car if they are doing it...no had grant before. The other ev only needs to charge every other day and not even to 100%. Short journeys mainly. It should be fine as I can fit both cars on the drive.

House circuit should be able to do both at once providing we are not using electric shower or cooker.

Ditch the electric shower and get a pumped only one , if you have a hot water cylinder you might as well use the hot water rather than waste electricity heating water.

ted1

Deleted User wrote: »

Ditch the electric shower and get a pumped only one , if you have a hot water cylinder you might as well use the hot water rather than waste electricity heating water.

A cylinder indescrimitaly heats water , an electric shower heats only the water being used, when it's being used, and too the temperature it's being used. I wouldn't call it a waste. Also you are assuming that he can isolate his hot cylinder.

cros13

thierry14 wrote: »

One of the guys here with an I3 has lost 7% range in 2 years with similar mileage and the i3 has a proper liquid cooling, not air like the Leaf which will be even worse

Well in fairness my pack is only 22kWh. A 40kWh-class pack doing the same mileage would have half the number of cycles (i.e. half the cycling-related wear) which is the main factor in my case.
A 40kWh EV would also do far less rapid charging than me which is where the active cooling comes in.

Mooooo wrote: »

Are we second hand model s available in UK yet at prices similar to a new car here? Or is the grant too Much of a jump? I assume vet can't be that high on them . With that much time in a car would it be worth checking g out

SIMI dealers goosed the Open Market Selling Price for the Model S here which meant that 2-3 year old cars were being valued here for VRT purposes for more than they sell for new.

If he has central heating of any kind that heats hot water and rads an electric shower is a complete waste.

ted1

Deleted User wrote: »

If he has central heating of any kind that heats hot water and rads an electric shower is a complete waste.

Deleted User wrote: »

If he has central heating of any kind that heats hot water and rads an electric shower is a complete waste.

I don't use gas between march and mid September as the heating is off. Using gas to heat a 300l cylinder is a complete waste, using electricity to heat exactly what I need is the best method. Using gas

No heat between March and September ? I'm moving to where you live !

During the warmer months I just heat the water on night rate leccy, plenty for 2 showers and water in the evening. No waste.

unkel

ted1 wrote: »

I don't use gas between march and mid September as the heating is off.

Obviously no women and children in your house. I envy you

ted1 wrote: »

Using gas to heat a 300l cylinder is a complete waste, using electricity to heat exactly what I need is the best method.

No need to heat the full cylinder. The top is heated first, and that is the water you use. Also modern cylinders are extremely well insulated. My 360l cylinder loses just 1C in heat per 24h.

Electric showers are third world. Try a pumped shower and you will never look back

Gas is far cheaper to use for heating than electricity. Even night rate electricity. It costs about 3.8c per kWh (the cheapest night rate electricity in Ireland is about 6.7c/kWh)

If you don't have Gas then don't get it, standing charges etc which you don't have on oil.

+ Gas isn't as efficient as an electric element. You have to heat the boiler and water first. An element heats almost immediately.

Yes a pumped shower is great :-)

unkel

Modern gas boilers are 97-98% efficient. Older ones not so much. The one that was installed when my house was new in 2000 was only 68% efficient :eek:

Yes the boiler, but it still has to heat up and heat water in the pipes and coil.

+ just say I could get mains Gas, it would mean extra standing charges and whatever other costs when I wouldn't need heat in Summer. I already pay these on Electricity, I don't on oil.

pwurple

unkel wrote: »

Obviously no women and children in your house. I envy you

Fnar fnar @ the casual sexism. maybe their house is just better insulated.

No heating on here either yet, but then we are on the south coast, with A rated BER. Showers are pumped and tank heated exclusively off solar since the summer. Wouldn't call it any cheaper than the electric showers though. The pump for solar runs at an average of 3.91KwH per day, and the electric showers were 3.4 or less. They are BETTER showers now, but cetainly not cheaper or more efficient.

Anyway, looks like we have a similar dilema. Main car is a leaf, 24kw. The second vehicle, ICE, looks like it is dead. Figuring out what to replace it with. It's a seven seater, for when the kids are going somewhere and we bring along a friend or neighbour. Can't find anything other than the env200, which is a van. What am i missing?

And don't say phev.

unkel

pwurple wrote: »

The pump for solar runs at an average of 3.91KwH per day

:eek:

How do you know this? It seems impossible. 120kWh/month? I would have thought the pump has tiny power, like in 50W or something (so using maybe 6kWh/month in summer) but I'll admit I have no idea of this. I didn't even take the pump consumption into consideration when I was doing my sums for our 40 tube Kingspan system.

ted1

unkel wrote: »

ted1 wrote: »

I don't use gas between march and mid September as the heating is off.

Obviously no women and children in your house. I envy you

ted1 wrote: »

Using gas to heat a 300l cylinder is a complete waste, using electricity to heat exactly what I need is the best method.

No need to heat the full cylinder. The top is heated first, and that is the water you use. Also modern cylinders are extremely well insulated. My 360l cylinder loses just 1C in heat per 24h.

Electric showers are third world. Try a pumped shower and you will never look back

Gas is far cheaper to use for heating than electricity. Even night rate electricity. It costs about 3.8c per kWh (the cheapest night rate electricity in Ireland is about 6.7c/kWh)

There's a wife and 3 kids here, still better off using electric shower than heating with gas. It's instant and there's no waste.

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

There's a wife and 3 kids here, still better off using electric shower than heating with gas. It's instant and there's no waste.

Why not dual system of pumped for the colder months and electric for the warmer months ? a lot of wasted water/energy in Winter.

unkel

ted1 wrote: »

There's a wife and 3 kids here, still better off using electric shower than heating with gas. It's instant and there's no waste.

There's a lot of waste! Even if you use it only at night rate time, it will cost you almost 7c/kWh. Gas costs about half that.

Electric shower is instant, sure, but a pumped shower is instant too if you have hot water in your cylinder. Which you normally do 24/7 (at least a bit at the top) and I've already demonstrated that you don't "waste" hot water in your cylinder provided you have a modern, very well insulated one. Our towels don't even dry in the "hot press" anymore, as it is no longer noticeably warmer in there than in the areas around it

But even apart from all of that, the luxury of having a proper full blast shower is something to behold. Compared to the mere trickle that comes out of even a 10kW electric shower

pwurple

unkel wrote: »

:eek:

How do you know this? It seems impossible. 120kWh/month? I would have thought the pump has tiny power, like in 50W or something (so using maybe 6kWh/month in summer) but I'll admit I have no idea of this. I didn't even take the pump consumption into consideration when I was doing my sums for our 40 tube Kingspan system.

Ran it directly into a power meter. Read it daily for 2 months and took an average. There was a faulty setup originally, was sucking 10kwh per day. They had the thermostat near the cold water inlet. Moved that and it dropped to 3.91. Might be just my system, but yeah, it's heavier on power than our three electric showers were.

I monitor nearly everything electrical in our house, I use it to detect faults or leaky appliances (fridge, oven etc).

unkel

I'd say there's still something very wrong there. I use a pumped water system to cool my PC. It uses a 5W aquarium pump. I can't really imagine the flow of the solar tube system being a lot more than 10 times as powerful as that. Even at 20 times that (100W), with the pump being on for an average of 4 hours a day during summer, it would use 12kWh per month. Not 120kWh as per your calculations. Maybe have your system checked out?

And as an aside, surely I would have noticed that my solar PV system (in place since November '16) would have bumped my annual electricity use from 3500kWh to well, well over 4000kWh? (which it hasn't)

pwurple

unkel wrote: »

I'd say there's still something very wrong there. I use a pumped water system to cool my PC. It uses a 5W aquarium pump. I can't really imagine the flow of the solar tube system being a lot more than 10 times as powerful as that. Even at 20 times that (100W), with the pump being on for an average of 4 hours a day during summer, it would use 12kWh per month. Not 120kWh as per your calculations. Maybe have your system checked out?

And as an aside, surely I would have noticed that my solar PV system (in place since November '16) would have bumped my annual electricity use from 3500kWh to well, well over 4000kWh? (which it hasn't)

Dude, I have contacted the installation company and the manufacturer, hence the thermostat being moved, see my earlier post. It's been checked out repeatedly. It's within the normal range for our size of panel now (but was incorrectly set up at the start). I don't think we have the same type of panel btw, but anyway, enough derailement.

Who has a second EV to fit 7 passengers for me?

ELM327

pwurple wrote: »

Dude, I have contacted the installation company and the manufacturer, hence the thermostat being moved, see my earlier post. It's been checked out repeatedly. It's within the normal range for our size of panel now (but was incorrectly set up at the start). I don't think we have the same type of panel btw, but anyway, enough derailement.

Who has a second EV to fit 7 passengers for me?

Short of a 7 seat configured tesla, the only option right now is the ENV200 envalia.
Great idea, but they get 85% of a gen1 leaf range due to worse aero and there's a new one coming out soon, so unless there's a great deal on one I would avoid it.

ted1

unkel wrote: »

ted1 wrote: »

There's a wife and 3 kids here, still better off using electric shower than heating with gas. It's instant and there's no waste.

There's a lot of waste! Even if you use it only at night rate time, it will cost you almost 7c/kWh. Gas costs about half that.

Electric shower is instant, sure, but a pumped shower is instant too if you have hot water in your cylinder. Which you normally do 24/7 (at least a bit at the top) and I've already demonstrated that you don't "waste" hot water in your cylinder provided you have a modern, very well insulated one. Our towels don't even dry in the "hot press" anymore, as it is no longer noticeably warmer in there than in the areas around it

But even apart from all of that, the luxury of having a proper full blast shower is something to behold. Compared to the mere trickle that comes out of even a 10kW electric shower

Where the waste? I have no hot water in my cylinder for more than half the year.
If I was to use gas I would be heating more water so while cheaper per kWh I would be using more kWh.
Remember a huge amount of houses were built in the 80s and don't have modern cylinders that store heat well.