Fast commuter ebike - opinions please - see mod note post #25

Tenzor07

peasant wrote: »

As an aside...
Would anyone have any idea what it would entail in terms of insurance cost and motor tax cost to properly register a speed pedelec in this country?

I have never once seen an ebike with a licence plate or a tax disc apart from in Switzerland...

rubadub

Feckofff wrote: »

There is nothing illegal about "chipping" an ebike. It's like having a car that can exceed the speed limit. The responsibility is with the operator.

The OP was also talking about the cycle to work scheme, it would be illegal to buy a chipped bike on that scheme under the current law (which I posted earlier). I am not sure about the legality of delimiting of an ebike that does pass their rules, or any other. Also I am not sure if it just worries about speed, or if power is also an issue.

Someone said the law had changed, but nobody has linked to any (other than my own link early on). But I think they were referring to the law on speed rather than the current cycle to work scheme law. I am not sure if the law has changed in relation to speed or if any law existed in the first place, the claims I saw were that there were no laws in place at all for speed on pedelecs. If this is true then chipping a pedelec (which requires to be pedaled) could well be legal (might need a power limit), but to me would seem an unlikely oversight.

I see on carol nash's site
https://www.carolenash.com/news/1512-what-is-a-scooter-moped-or-motorcycle

a moped is legally defined as any low-powered motorcycle with an engine capacity no greater than 50cc, and a max speed of 28mph. They can legally be ridden on the road with L-plates once you have passed CBT training, rather than needing a full motorcycle license.

you mentioned a car being legal even if it can go beyond the limit, but this would suggest some vehicles do have upper limits. Of course they might be wrong about the law, I would rather see links to www.irishstatutebook.ie -searching it "pedelec" only appears in relation to the cycle to work scheme.

The alleged 25km/h limit is quite low, even in the US it is higher. Seems to me it might have been based on the upper limit of bikes at the time of introducing the law, rather than what is really a reasonable limit. I was saying in other threads this has backfired as people delimit and can get stupid speeds. While if the limit was more reasonable they would likely not have bothered and just lived with a reasonable limit, both since it is illegal but also since it is costly.

Earlier it was mentioned that going beyond 25km//h would drain the battery fast. I was not sure if this meant as it would always be powered, or if going faster than that is less efficient on the battery. i.e. if you cycled 50km at 25km/h is it going to use less battery than going the same 50km at 30km/h. I expect the motor would have a preferred speed and cadence. I think the bosch prefers to be going at relatively high cadence.

The bosch system rotates ~2.5times per rotation, so you have a smaller cog on the front than normal. It seems some bike designers have (stupidly) matched regular gearing, and have ignored the fact you have extra power. So a bike might have a 15tooth cog, equivalent to 37.5 front ring, which might match a unpowered bike but should be higher. This means in its hardest gear it is extremely easy to get to 25km/h, so you will easily get to that speed, then power cuts out and you get into a loop of easily getting to 26km/h, being difficult to maintain it on a heavy bike, and so lowering back down below 25, then power kicking in again. I wonder if this constant stopping & starting is healthy for a motor, and if the initial inertia would zap the battery even more.

The smaller cog size on the Bosch (and others) also means it is susceptible to "chain suck", especially as it has extra power. This is where the chain does not release itself off the front cog as it is experiencing huge forces and tends to stick to the teeth. If you had some odd gear setup meaning your front cog rotated 2.5 times per turn you would also want a small cog, but this coupled with the power of the motor is really high force "per tooth", and the chain. MTBers might see this due to mucky cogs. Some e bikes designers have had to have chain tensioner type devices fitted to stop the chain wrapping up upon itself (chain suck). Many would be solved by simply fitting a larger front cog to begin with, so the force is dispersed over more teeth, but also this is wise as the high power means you can go at a lower cadence at higher speeds. So even on a heavy mountain bike having a 50 or 52 front ring coupled with a 11T back ring is reasonable since you have added power, while ordinarily it would only be like that on a road bike.

A 45km/h lapiere was mentioned
https://www.cyclesuperstore.ie/shop/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=101614

this bike is equipped with a Bosch Performance 350W motor enabling you to get around at 45km/h without polluting. An approved helmet is needed.

I have seen 45km/h ones on sale on other sites, but I think CSS are more reputable and less likely to be selling something which is illegal to use on the road. They mention helmets which are obviously not legally required on bikes. So I wonder if this is a sneaky indirect hint that it is classed as a motorbike. It is not a MTB and is obviously intended for on road use. People criticized the shady sellers on adverts or donedeal etc who implied their bikes were road legal. I was asking if there is actually any legal obligation for people selling cars or motorbikes to inform buyers that they must have full tax. insurance, helmets etc before they can legally sell them.

peasant

rubadub wrote: »

Earlier it was mentioned that going beyond 25km//h would drain the battery fast. I was not sure if this meant as it would always be powered, or if going faster than that is less efficient on the battery.

Neither really.
In my experience you won't get to top speed (45) on the lowest assist level.
You either need to notch it up to turbo...or find yourself a nice downhill stretch.

At least that's the case on a non-aero heavy touring bike in a gentlemanly seating posture

CramCycle

Feckofff wrote: »

Are you giving legal advice? Stating that something is illegal with out any supporting evidence certainly sounds like legal advise/opinion to me.

MOD VOICE: As stated in the post, take it to PM if you have an issue. Do not respond in thread.

Ferris

Hi folks, thought I’d update this thread. I got my new bike on thurs and rode to work on Friday. In the end I went for a cube hybrid with a 500wh battery and a Bosch performance CX motor.

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/mobile/ie/en/cube-reaction-hybrid-hpa-pro-500-e-bike-2017/rp-prod157984

I am very pleased with it, the bike is beautifully put together. The brakes are very powerful and the gear setup works well. It’s a big bus compared to the road bike of course but, apart from the saddle, it’s very comfortable. I wasn’t counting on how solid and much safer it would feel in traffic too.

The motor and battery setup is great, totally intuitive. It matches your effort to 4 different levels; eco, tour, sport and turbo. The cutout at 25km/h is a pity, especially as the bike is clearly capable of much more. I was mostly in eco/tour with turbo for through howth village. You can get to 25kmh easy on the flat in eco. Then just use the gears as necessary. I only used 2/5ths of the battery over 56k.

Minor drawbacks? The charger lead has a 2 pin plug on it but it’s a standard a/c lead, similar to tv power cables. Also there are no mounting points on the frame for bottle cages etc. Also chain reaction were poor to deal with on the bike to work scheme, it too them a long time to ‘recieve’ the payment from my employer.

Overall very pleased. Thanks again for all the advice, especially rubadub, my eventual choice was based on your good advice.

loyatemu

IMO e-bikes are potentially a great solution for getting people who wouldn't otherwise consider cycling out of their cars and onto 2 wheels. The govt should consider increasing the BTW limit for them to encourage uptake; this probably wouldn't cost a huge amount.

rubadub

Ferris wrote: »

a cube hybrid with a 500wh battery and a Bosch performance CX motor.

strange they call it a hyrbid, looks like a MTB and even their description said it.

"Cube's Reaction Hybrid HPA Pro 500 E-Bike is a genuine mountain bike that..."

Ferris wrote: »

I wasn’t counting on how solid and much safer it would feel in traffic too.

I find this too, on windy days it is also very stable. I do not have to worry much about potholes or kerbs etc. I was behind a guy speeding along on a road bike the other day who was darting about like mad on a cycletrack dodging all these little "obstacles" which I just ignore.

Ferris wrote: »

I only used 2/5ths of the battery over 56

WIth my bosch the first bar takes a while before it disappears, but the last one goes pretty quick, i.e. it does not appear linear, so your first "2 bars" might actually get your a further distance than your last 3. You will get to know it yourself but just do not leave yourself stuck somewhere. I am pretty sure mine seems to show an extra bar sometimes, i.e. I get off and it is on 2, then after a few days I turn back on and it shows 3. I did this the other day but luckily I brought my charger with me, it was on 2 bars almost right after I left.

The spec on the cube says it has a 15tooth front cog, as mine had, and the cube has no additional protection about "chain suck" which I spoke about in a previous post. So I reckon you might eventually suffer the same. This is the cog I got 6 months about and have had no chain suck since

https://www.amazon.co.uk/FSA-Unisex-Replacement-Chainring-Systems/dp/B01N3PH7SC/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?s=sports&ie=UTF8&qid=1510501301&sr=1-1-fkmr0&keywords=bosch+e-bike+systems%2C+black%2C+size+20th

CramCycle

There are two of those Cube e bikes on my commute, not a hope they are only getting assistance to just 25kmph. One of them goes up the hill in Bray at north of 30kmph with no noticeable effort and I often see him coming upto Shankhill and I am tipping 35 and losing distance on him.

Ferris

rubadub wrote: »

WIth my bosch the first bar takes a while before it disappears, but the last one goes pretty quick, i.e. it does not appear linear, so your first "2 bars" might actually get your a further distance than your last 3. You will get to know it yourself but just do not leave yourself stuck somewhere. I am pretty sure mine seems to show an extra bar sometimes, i.e. I get off and it is on 2, then after a few days I turn back on and it shows 3. I did this the other day but luckily I brought my charger with me, it was on 2 bars almost right after I left.

The spec on the cube says it has a 15tooth front cog, as mine had, and the cube has no additional protection about "chain suck" which I spoke about in a previous post. So I reckon you might eventually suffer the same. This is the cog I got 6 months about and have had no chain suck since

https://www.amazon.co.uk/FSA-Unisex-Replacement-Chainring-Systems/dp/B01N3PH7SC/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?s=sports&ie=UTF8&qid=1510501301&sr=1-1-fkmr0&keywords=bosch+e-bike+systems%2C+black%2C+size+20th

Thanks for the advice about the linearity, or lack thereof, of the powermeter.

I have an 18T connex from cog on the way. Thought I might as well change it while the chain is new.

Ferris

CramCycle wrote: »

There are two of those Cube e bikes on my commute, not a hope they are only getting assistance to just 25kmph. One of them goes up the hill in Bray at north of 30kmph with no noticeable effort and I often see him coming upto Shankhill and I am tipping 35 and losing distance on him.

Obviously can’t speak to them but The assistance doesn’t seem to stop at 25km/h, it seems to level, therefore you can push them faster, although it’s like trying to push a barn door in a gale. I was at 35km/h Friday afternoon - with two road bikes drafting me.

Edit: Tested my assumption that there was assistance above 25kph this morning by turning off the assistance while above the limit - no difference - I was wrong, there is no assistance above 25kph.

rubadub

Ferris wrote: »

Thanks for the advice about the linearity, or lack thereof, of the powermeter.

That is my one, they could well have fixed the issue on your model, if they considered it an issue. Just watch out for it. I just drop to eco if I think there is a danger of running out, its a horrible hog of a thing to cycle with no power at all.

Connex are meant to be the best brand of cogs, just would have cost me a lot with postage. On amazon I bundled it with something else to get free postage.

I see they are on amazon now though, none when I got mine.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Connex-Bike-Pinion-20-Teeth-Silver/dp/B00NZ51MEA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1510511368&sr=8-1&keywords=connex+bosch

Ferris

What size did you go for? I guessed at 18T.

rubadub

Got the 20T, I wanted large to stop the chain suck, but also since I usually only used the higher gears on my other bikes. I am not going long distances.

With the 15T I was mainly on the smallest 3 cogs on the cassette. So it was a bit of a waste of the cassette and the smaller rings wore out quicker. I would actually go for a 22T next time. Connex only goes to 20T.

20T is equivalent to a 50T ring on a regular bike. This might sound a lot for a mountain bike but it seems like the guys designing the bikes forgot the fact that the bikes have motors! Also seems connex did not take it into account, on a lighter e-bike with thin tyres I expect people would want higher than 22T.

If the battery runs out I can still cycle fine with the 20T.

Though I did read that the bosch prefers to be going at a fairly high cadence for efficiency.

Ferris

Ah right, prob should’ve gone bigger than but I’ll try it out anyway. I’d imagine the small front cog is for low ratio for going up steep trails for people who actually go off-road.

rubadub

Actually looking at yours again I see it has 29" wheels, mine are 27.5", so you might be better off with the 18T. They were surprisingly cheap. I read of some people flipping them when worn out too. I also got a e-bike chain supposedly stronger to take the higher torque.

I changed my knobbly MTB tyres too which also made quite a difference, while freewheeling I can go for ages, lot of momentum with the weight behind it.

homer911

I cut the two pin plug off my charger and added a proper 3-pin

CramCycle

homer911 wrote: »

I cut the two pin plug off my charger and added a proper 3-pin

You do seem more grounded since you started using the electric bike.









I'll get my coat.

Ferris

rubadub wrote: »

I changed my knobbly MTB tyres too which also made quite a difference, while freewheeling I can go for ages, lot of momentum with the weight behind it.

I may look at this too - once my finances get back to normality:eek:. What tyres did you swap to?

Annie get your Run

Ferris wrote: »

Hi folks, thought I’d update this thread. I got my new bike on thurs and rode to work on Friday. In the end I went for a cube hybrid with a 500wh battery and a Bosch performance CX motor.

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/mobile/ie/en/cube-reaction-hybrid-hpa-pro-500-e-bike-2017/rp-prod157984

I am very pleased with it, the bike is beautifully put together. The brakes are very powerful and the gear setup works well. It’s a big bus compared to the road bike of course but, apart from the saddle, it’s very comfortable. I wasn’t counting on how solid and much safer it would feel in traffic too.

The motor and battery setup is great, totally intuitive. It matches your effort to 4 different levels; eco, tour, sport and turbo. The cutout at 25km/h is a pity, especially as the bike is clearly capable of much more. I was mostly in eco/tour with turbo for through howth village. You can get to 25kmh easy on the flat in eco. Then just use the gears as necessary. I only used 2/5ths of the battery over 56k.

Minor drawbacks? The charger lead has a 2 pin plug on it but it’s a standard a/c lead, similar to tv power cables. Also there are no mounting points on the frame for bottle cages etc. Also chain reaction were poor to deal with on the bike to work scheme, it too them a long time to ‘recieve’ the payment from my employer.

Overall very pleased. Thanks again for all the advice, especially rubadub, my eventual choice was based on your good advice.

Can I ask (and apologies if this is a stupid question ) if the e-bike is heavier than a road bike, are some of the benefits of the engine not outweighed (!) by the difference in weight of the bikes? Or does the assistance the engine give make the weight of the bike irrelevant? Although I believe you can turn off the assistance (is that right?) and if so would the bike be very heavy to cycle?

Pigeon Reaper

Annie get your Run wrote: »

Can I ask (and apologies if this is a stupid question ) if the e-bike is heavier than a road bike, are some of the benefits of the engine not outweighed (!) by the difference in weight of the bikes? Or does the assistance the engine give make the weight of the bike irrelevant? Although I believe you can turn off the assistance (is that right?) and if so would the bike be very heavy to cycle?

E-bikes are heavier than a normal bike. A good e-bike might be 20KG which means going up hill unaided is hard. On the flat you'll notice it's slow to accelerate but once up rolling it's like a normal bike. When you switch on the power, even the lowest setting will more than make up for the extra weight. The higher settings can make uphill climbs feel like cycling downhill with a tail wind.

I use the e-bike for pootling around at the weekends or for short trips. I tend to use my normal bike for commuting as it's faster. After 200km+ a week on a normal bike it's nice to take it easy sometimes.

Annie get your Run

Pigeon Reaper wrote: »

E-bikes are heavier than a normal bike. A good e-bike might be 20KG which means going up hill unaided is hard. On the flat you'll notice it's slow to accelerate but once up rolling it's like a normal bike. When you switch on the power, even the lowest setting will more than make up for the extra weight. The higher settings can make uphill climbs feel like cycling downhill with a tail wind.

I use the e-bike for pootling around at the weekends or for short trips. I tend to use my normal bike for commuting as it's faster. After 200km+ a week on a normal bike it's nice to take it easy sometimes.

I'm assuming you're far faster on the road bike than me so? I have a 20km each way commute and according to strava my average speed is between 18 and 20kph - takes me between 52 & 58 mins (going home is mostly uphill drags). I did do 5 days for awhile but now I only do the full commute 3 days a week, get the bus another day and drive/cycle on the 5th day so I'm kind of thinking an e-bike might a) reduce the time it takes to about 45 mins b) not leave me feeling tired after a week of cycling?

Bigus

Annie get your Run wrote: »

I'm assuming you're far faster on the road bike than me so? I have a 20km each way commute and according to strava my average speed is between 18 and 20kph - takes me between 52 & 58 mins (going home is mostly uphill drags). I did do 5 days for awhile but now I only do the full commute 3 days a week, get the bus another day and drive/cycle on the 5th day so I'm kind of thinking an e-bike might a) reduce the time it takes to about 45 mins b) not leave me feeling tired after a week of cycling?

I have both and on a long run the carbon road bike would be an easier ride.

Having said that an ebike would really come into its own for you on the incline coming home at the end of the day.

The ebike is also much better at regaining momentum lost stopping at red lights and junctions, in city riding. My ebike also has superior hyraulic disc brakes especially good in wet city traffic.
Ebike is also far superior in strong headwinds.

So to answer your question it very much depends on your actual commute.

I'm keeping both bikes. I'd say cyclesuperstore would give you a demo bike for 3 days.

Pigeon Reaper

Annie get your Run wrote: »

I'm assuming you're far faster on the road bike than me so? I have a 20km each way commute and according to strava my average speed is between 18 and 20kph - takes me between 52 & 58 mins (going home is mostly uphill drags). I did do 5 days for awhile but now I only do the full commute 3 days a week, get the bus another day and drive/cycle on the 5th day so I'm kind of thinking an e-bike might a) reduce the time it takes to about 45 mins b) not leave me feeling tired after a week of cycling?

I average about 30kph with a 24km one way trip. The E-bike will make you get home less tired and can be easier when going into the wind. You'll also be able to carry more without noticing. I don't find the e-bike slower in town as the traffic lights tend to hold you up anyway. It's on the longer straights that you'll notice the speed limiter.

rubadub

I would certainly get another ebike if mine was nicked, anybody who had a go of mine came off it grinning like a cheshire cat, it is still fun for me to ride too, like some stag-do activity or something. I usually have mine in turbo/fastest.

If you want excercise you can turn down the assistance, I would say mine is like my heavier hybrid when on eco mode, with no assistance it is horrible, but once going it is OK, probably just seems even worse as you are used to having it so easy.

Pigeon Reaper wrote: »

You'll also be able to carry more without noticing.

big time, some days I have to stop to make sure my ~2kg lock is in my bag, on other bikes I would know fine well it was there. I would carry about 7kg of locks & chains at times.

I would have full rain gear and in really windy weather it is heavy and stable. I do not break a sweat even though I am in rain gear and going against strong wind. Also saves on taxis etc as I can go places in regular clothes as there is no sweating, just wish there were more places I would feel safe locking it.

Being able to rocket off at lights is great, and safer too as cars are not right up behind you.

Much smoother ride, I can turn on suspension fuller on dodgy roads without the annoyance of wasting more energy due to it.

Annie get your Run

So the general consensus is yes for commuting... I'd be happy to keep the road bike for a weekend spin and as I'm hoping to get back running properly next year I'll need less 'exercise' on the commute

There seems to be a permanent head wind on the journey home which is up the quays, through the park and out beyond Clonee. The morning is much easier. I'll definitely start looking into them more and try and do a test drive(!) or two. Thanks for the feedback and happy cycling on your new bike Ferris!!

Ferris

Thanks!

I've been commuting 3 days on the ebike and I've noticed the following:

- On a still day I would say that I am quicker on the roadbike due to the speed limiter on the e-bike, however we never get a still day. Ebike will basically push you through anything up to 25kph.

- The heavier ebike with suspension, big tyres and hyd. brakes is way safer than the roadbike, in my book this should not be disregarded.

- Fatigue over the week is less of an issue, however that also means less of a workout.

- Going up through Howth village at 25kph without breaking a sweat is hilarious.

- With the wind behind you sustained speeds of 30kph+ are possible on the flat. Its a struggle to go over the limit into the wind.

- I am pleased with the e-bike but I do miss the ability to hammer at 35kph on the roadbike every now and again.

Mostly I feel that the ebike gives you more of a reason not to take a car as there are less excuses e.g. wind, rain, fatigue, how much it cost etc.

Lumen

Has this been posted yet? Worth a watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8tV8cWeY3Y

Annie get your Run

Lumen wrote: »

Has this been posted yet? Worth a watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8tV8cWeY3Y

Well that certainly answers all my questions. I'm off to do the lotto

cubix

Lads
Can anyone tell me if there is a better bike/spec out there for the same/ less money. This one has some of the better kit, CX motor-500 battery / Xt shimano/ air forks with lock out. Looked at the Giants on the same site but while slightly less the spec is not the same. CRC have a Cube touring 2017 model which looks good value at just under €2K with the CX motor/500 battery but slightly less fork /shimano spec but frame is only 50cm/20". I am just on 6ft and find a 54cm frame a bit more comfortable due to a more upright position

https://www.cyclesuperstore.ie/shop/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=119097

CramCycle

The only thing I would say is at 6 foot, try out a larger size, just to make sure you couldn't get something more comfy. I would have thought that made you a 56cm.

EDIT - just seen there is no 56cm. Maybe try the 58cm, if just to rule it out.