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Junker wants all EU countries to be in Eurozone and Schengen

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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,175 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    recedite wrote: »
    Less diversity, for a start.

    No that is not the case, we had city states etc... with plenty of diversity before nations.....


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    No that is not the case, we had city states etc... with plenty of diversity before nations.....
    Yep and before them tribes in caves. Nation states are a phase too. The EU is also just another phase. Some want to push back against this tide. I'm sure many in the kingdoms of Prussia, Saxony, Bavaria etc. were horrified at the idea of Germany subsuming them all but even in Bavaria you won't find too many who want to go back to those days.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    The 'imaginative and innovative' solution to the Ireland border conundrum, given that a border between the 6 and 26 will not happen, will be to have it in the Irish sea.
    No, you cant' have one part of the UK in the EU, and the other part of it outside. Its impossible from both the UK and the EU perspectives. That's why it has been called "imaginative" by those suggesting it (who all seem to be in Rep. of Ireland)
    Like the way Harry Potter is "imaginative" as opposed to "realistic".


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    recedite wrote: »
    No, you cant' have one part of the UK in the EU, and the other part of it outside. Its impossible from both the UK and the EU perspectives. That's why it has been called "imaginative" by those suggesting it (who all seem to be in Rep. of Ireland)
    Like the way Harry Potter is "imaginative" as opposed to "realistic".

    Who says you can't? The EU & UK can have any border they both agree to.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    No that is not the case, we had city states etc... with plenty of diversity before nations.....
    The city states had more diversity than the nations. Napoleon's grand plan was to create a uniform and unified Europe under his flag, which did not quite succeed. But he did manage to standardise the metric system and impose a standard French language to replace the various regional languages and dialects around France.
    That's a reduction in diversity, whether or not you think its a progressive move.
    Nowadays I could walk into a Lidl supermarket in most towns in the EU and buy the same standard products as i would at home, using the same currency, and the cashiers would probably understand my normal English. That's also a reduction in diversity, whether or not you think its a progressive move.

    It must be strange for kids in schools these days. In one classroom, they are told that they must welcome into their community the immigrants from Africa and the Middle East which Merkel has encouraged into Europe, in the interests of creating "diversity".
    In the next class, they are told that invasive species must be prevented from replacing the native wildlife, in the interests of preserving "diversity".
    Confusing.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    jm08 wrote: »
    Who says you can't? The EU & UK can have any border they both agree to.
    You're off your trolley. Think about what the word "border" means. Its the demarcation line between two countries or jurisdictions.

    The only way your idea can work is if NI leaves the UK and joins RoI (which is not beyond the bounds of possibility)


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,795 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    recedite wrote: »
    It must be strange for kids in schools these days. In one classroom, they are told that they must welcome into their community the immigrants from Africa and the Middle East which Merkel has encouraged into Europe, in the interests of creating "diversity".
    In the next class, they are told that invasive species must be prevented from replacing the native wildlife, in the interests of preserving "diversity".
    Confusing.

    Classy: comparing migrants to invasive species.



    /awaits indignant claim that no such comparison was intended or should be inferred


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Apart from the unionists what would technically prevent NI and the RoI from joining Schengen? Customs controls would still have to be along the border of course, once the UK leaves the customs union and single market. I don't see any way of having the customs border in the sea but Schengen I think could actually encompass NI if they agreed, which of course they won't.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Classy: comparing migrants to invasive species.
    /awaits indignant claim that no such comparison was intended or should be inferred
    "Diversity" is something that is taught in schools these days as "a good thing" and used in relation to both subjects. But to be implemented in opposite ways.
    Make of that what you will.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    murphaph wrote: »
    Apart from the unionists what would technically prevent NI and the RoI from joining Schengen? Customs controls would still have to be along the border of course, once the UK leaves the customs union and single market. I don't see any way of having the customs border in the sea but Schengen I think could actually encompass NI if they agreed, which of course they won't.
    Firstly, the people in NI do not have a say in this, and neither do we. The negotiations are between a Frenchman and an Englishman. They will decide what happens at the border between the 6 counties and the 26. And like the similar pair who drew up the Iraq Syria border, they have very little interest or understanding of the people who actually live in the region. They have their own interests and that's what mainly concerns them.

    Secondly, unless you change the sovereignty of NI, ie it joins a United Ireland, it remains inside the UK and as such it is due to leave the EU very soon. Hence the Irish border taking on a new importance, as it becomes an external EU border. There is no way around that.


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  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,795 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    recedite wrote: »
    "Diversity" is something that is taught in schools these days as "a good thing" and used in relation to both subjects. But to be implemented in opposite ways.
    Make of that what you will.

    What I make of it is that children are able to distinguish human beings from plants, which - apparently - is more than some adults are capable of.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    What I make of it is that children are able to distinguish human beings from plants, which - apparently - is more than some adults are capable of.
    Right, but when you transplant them here from far off places, are you increasing "diversity".... or reducing it?


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,496 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    recedite wrote: »
    It must be strange for kids in schools these days. In one classroom, they are told that they must welcome into their community the immigrants from Africa and the Middle East which Merkel has encouraged into Europe, in the interests of creating "diversity".
    In the next class, they are told that invasive species must be prevented from replacing the native wildlife, in the interests of preserving "diversity".
    Confusing.

    Mod note:

    Please read the charter and discuss the topic at hand rather than bringing irrelevant issues about multiculturalism into the thread.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,235 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Posts deleted. No more sniping and back on topic please.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 492 ✭✭Gerrup Outta Dat!


    The Irish electorate in general have the IQ of a dead goldfish. I sincerely hope it doesn't lead to an IREXIT referendum, because people here would vote in favour of it.

    I hope that if the majority of Ireland refuse to join Schengen it doesn't lead to us being booted out of the EU.

    If the Irish people were given a choice [A] Seal the Northern border and and join Schengen and stay in the EU or Leave border open and be expelled from the EU. The Irish electorate would choose B I'm afraid.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,749 ✭✭✭✭Inquitus


    The Irish electorate in general have the IQ of a dead goldfish. I sincerely hope it doesn't lead to an IREXIT referendum, because people here would vote in favour of it.

    I hope that if the majority of Ireland refuse to join Schengen it doesn't lead to us being booted out of the EU.

    If the Irish people were given a choice [A] Seal the Northern border and and join Schengen and stay in the EU or Leave border open and be expelled from the EU. The Irish electorate would choose B I'm afraid.

    I disagree, Irish attitudes to remaining in the EU poll at over 80% at the moment, the issue of the border with the North will not derail that, while the electorate can be fickle at times, I don't believe we would shoot ourselves in the foot as badly as the UK has done, we know which side out bread is buttered and it's definitely on the remain side.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    I knew this on June 23rd which is why I voted to leave. Anyone who knows anything about the EU knows they want a European super state and to destroy the nation state. Glad I won't be paying towards it in the future.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 492 ✭✭Gerrup Outta Dat!


    I knew this on June 23rd which is why I voted to leave. Anyone who knows anything about the EU knows they want a European super state and to destroy the nation state. Glad I won't be paying towards it in the future.

    You will, when the inevitable United Ireland comes along.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    I knew this on June 23rd which is why I voted to leave. Anyone who knows anything about the EU knows they want a European super state and to destroy the nation state
    I'm sure the citizens of Northumberland, Wessex and Mercia felt similarly about England when it was unified! Nation states will vanish just as surely as the kingdoms they themselves amalgamated did. It's just a matter of time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    You will, when the inevitable United Ireland comes along.
    Well, with a UI Ireland would quite likely be a net recipient again for some time. The NI private sector is woefully underdeveloped as the province relies heavily on public sector employment to keep the lights on. That would take years to address and pull the GDP of the new united country right down.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,722 ✭✭✭donaghs


    Inquitus wrote: »
    I disagree, Irish attitudes to remaining in the EU poll at over 80% at the moment, the issue of the border with the North will not derail that, while the electorate can be fickle at times, I don't believe we would shoot ourselves in the foot as badly as the UK has done, we know which side out bread is buttered and it's definitely on the remain side.
    If people feel enough negative consequences from the EU, they will change their minds about it. But that depends on how the future pans out.
    murphaph wrote: »
    I'm sure the citizens of Northumberland, Wessex and Mercia felt similarly about England when it was unified! Nation states will vanish just as surely as the kingdoms they themselves amalgamated did. It's just a matter of time.

    Which Empires will replace them? And what tribal identities will split those Empires?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    donaghs wrote: »
    If people feel enough negative consequences from the EU, they will change their minds about it.

    They will never feel enough negative consequences of the EU to want to leave - the balance of positives/negative of EU is undisputable enormously to the good.
    There will always be a contrary for the sake of it, protest vote, or political opportunists like Sinn Fein trying to carve out an identity and purpose for themselves.
    Add in the dim and uneducated who despite being benficiaries, dont understand that they are so, and you can reach a tipping point as tge UK did. But the key difference there, that no other Eu country has (exacerbated by one of the worst media standards in the world), was tge backward looking, Empire nostalgists, England standing alone, movement who are having their last shot (into their own feet) with Brexit. The price will be very high, regretted, and that movement will die off as the extent of the mistake is felt. Back in in about 30 years.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    donaghs wrote: »
    Which Empires will replace them?[
    EU, US are works in progress I'd argue. India is arguably a similar construct with perhaps more cultural diversity than Europe. Despite problems, it has stayed together more or less. Russia is essentially holding together and is ethnically a very diverse country, perhaps the most naturally ethnically diverse country in the world. It is an Empire to all intents and purposes.

    Look, what's the very long term alternative to a global government? We all keep doing our own thing until the sun explodes or we get wiped out by a massive asteroid?

    These are global level events that will visit us someday. 100% guaranteed!

    We either figure out how to work together as a small species on a tiny planet in a gigantic universe, or we someday all perish. It's as simple as that.

    The question is, how do you get there? I think it's probably going to be through supranational organisations that gradually move ever closer. I think the moment we conclusively discover (especially more than simple) life off our planet, will be a defining moment in the process. Even discovering simple life in our own solar system would be a game changer IMO. If we find evidence of life on Mars, even extinct, it will indicate very strongly that there is life throughout the universe.

    Maybe you will be right and humankind will just forever argue with itself until our species is removed from history. I have no crystal ball.

    Sorry, this has gone way off topic. I'll leave it at that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    murphaph wrote: »
    Look, what's the very long term alternative to a global government?
    You should read the original "I Robot" by Isaac Asimov.
    The problem with empires is that they are essentially unfair. Resources are always channeled towards the bureaucratic capital/centre, where the real power lies. That is the danger for a future and overly centralised EU.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,523 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    But in a decentralised structure the bigger, more powerful entities will certainly funnel stuff their way. Its a no brainer that smaller entities carry more weight in a union.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,244 ✭✭✭MayoSalmon


    murphaph wrote:
    Nation states will vanish just as surely as the kingdoms they themselves amalgamated did. It's just a matter of time.


    Unless the Klingons arrive on planet earth then the chances of this happening are a out 2 billion to 1


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    MayoSalmon wrote: »
    Unless the Klingons arrive on planet earth then the chances of this happening are a out 2 billion to 1
    It's just a matter of time. Nation States would seem like an impossibility to a caveman too.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,175 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    MayoSalmon wrote: »
    Unless the Klingons arrive on planet earth then the chances of this happening are a out 2 billion to 1

    Nation states are a relatively new concept in the history of mankind... also you have to recognise that on mainland Europe, local authorities tend to be much more powerful than in Ireland, then you have separatist movements like the Basque country, Catalonia, Corsica etc.... then you have the cooperation between the Alsace and the City of Basel, the cross border cooperation in Ireland etc...

    I'd say the odds are more like 20-1, 10-1 that it could happen over say the next 100 years.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,205 ✭✭✭Gringo180


    He has no mandate to dictate to any country in the EU. How many EU citizens voted for this clown?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Gringo180 wrote: »
    He has no mandate to dictate to any country in the EU. How many EU citizens voted for this clown?
    How many voters voted for Leo Varadkar to be Taoiseach or Theresa May to be PM? That's a big fat zero on both counts. Both offices are elected by a group of people who themselves are elected. It's actually worse than that in Ireland and the UK because those who get to vote on party leader includes a bunch of people who were not elected (the members of that political party).

    Democracy is seldom (thankfully) direct. Juncker is elected by people who are in turn themselves elected. The Presidents of the Commission, the Council and the Parliament are all elected.

    I am constantly amazed that people across Europe are convinced their own national parliaments are way more democratic than the EU. It's seldom the case IMO.


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