Sling Shot

Son_of_Belial

I've seen one or two much older threads but didn't want to bump an older thread so I'm starting this.

I bought a sling shot in a shop in Athlone recently, namely Barnett's Black Widow. It came with .38 calibre steel ball bearings which weigh roughly 3.5 grams apiece. Now, first of all, I know (or I'm 95% sure) that under Irish law, anything which fires a projectile with 1 Joule or more of Kinetic Energy at least from the muzzle is classed as a Firearm under the Criminal Justice Act 2006. A back-of-a-napkin test and calculation told me that my slingshot fires that ball bearing at roughly 1.183J. Interestingly, if I were to load my slingshot with a lighter load, the Kinetic Energy output is much lower.

So, here's the question: Is it legal? Do I need to get rid of it? I also managed to shoot and mortally injure a crow with a .38 calibre bearing as well (graphic photograph attached). Any idea on the legality of that? What makes my slingshot illegal (assuming it is)? The slingshot itself or its ammunition?

Witcher

A slingshot doesn't have a muzzle.

Son_of_Belial

Semantics. I mean kinetic energy when the ball is launched.

Witcher

The kinetic energy of your slingshot is irrelevant, the law is based on muzzle energy and a slingshot doesn't have one. You've nothing to worry about, just don't be shooting people with it :pac:

Son_of_Belial

Strider wrote: »

The kinetic energy of your slingshot is irrelevant, the law is based on muzzle energy and a slingshot doesn't have one. You've nothing to worry about, just don't be shooting people with it :pac:

Not a chance I'd be shooting anyone with that thing - that picture really speaks for itself on the damage that thing can do when it hits flesh and bone!

gunny123

Archery bows are commonly available to buy without any licence needed. They sure as hell make more than 1 joules.

Son_of_Belial

OK cool. Although, I just did learn from the NARGC's website that rooks are protected under EU Law and you need a special derogation to kill them...

cookimonster

Just give you the heads up, last time I checked the use of a sling shots and bows for hunting of any kind is illegal in Ireland, so if I'm still correct then expect the Mods to

comment on this thread.

Son_of_Belial

cookimonster wrote: »

Just give you the heads up, last time I checked the use of a sling shots and bows for hunting of any kind is illegal in Ireland, so if I'm still correct then expect the Mods to

comment on this thread.

Good to know... I've been scouring the Irish Statute Book website though and have been unable to find any reference to sling shots/catapults. I also found the attached PDF which is the derogation I need. I might email Minister Humphrey's office and ask if anything outside of "rifle or shotgun", namely my slingshot, can be used to shoot rooks etc.

cookimonster

The derogation clearly outlines the 'only' methods of control , there are NO others.
Tell me for what purpose are you killing the birds?
You still have to be within the legal definition for controling the birds. For example a dairy farmer would not have a valid reason to shoot pigeons feeding on clover.

Son_of_Belial

cookimonster wrote: »

The derogation clearly outlines the 'only' methods of control , there are NO others.
Tell me for what purpose are you killing the birds?
You still have to be within the legal definition for controling the birds. For example a dairy farmer would not have a valid reason to shoot pigeons feeding on clover.

To be honest I shot the rook there because the lot of them were causing an irritation to me personally and they were on public land. I work from home and they were causing a racket so I killed that one rook in that picture. I had no other rhyme or reason other than that, and honestly I'm not yet sure how I feel about it. I'd never deliberately killed anything larger than a mouse up until then. Also, with all due respect, I can't find anything saying literally only a rifle or shotgun and nothing else. It says they can be killed "by any of the means" outlined but doesn't say that's exclusive. I think I might ask the Department in an email for clarification.

Sparks

Son_of_Belial wrote: »

Semantics. I mean kinetic energy when the ball is launched.

Semantics are a huge part of the law

For example, yes, you have no barrel there, but legally that could still get called a firearm anyway - I've never seen a crossbow with a barrel for example, but they're still firearms under the law. All you'd have to do is say it could be lethal and it would qualify under part (a) of the definitions (proving that it would not be lethal is left as an exercise for the reader).

Also, the one joule limit only applies to airguns or other firearms with a barrel. So a sub-one-joule crossbow would still be a firearm, for example.

Slingshots though, don't seem to be specifically controlled by legislation. Which is to say that while they're perfectly legal, things like the 1990 firearms and offensive weapons acts and other such acts still apply to them. So if you're whacking tin cans off the wall in your back yard out in the middle of mayo, you're probably grand, but walk down grafton street carrying one and the Gardai are legally empowered to confiscate it and even arrest you -- though that extreme seems to be reserved for when people are really acting the maggot, to use the legal phrase (did I mention I'm not a lawyer?).

(Also, I'm pretty sure hunting with them would be illegal).

cookimonster

The right hand side of the table contained within the printed derogation states the method of control - trapping / shooting (rifle or shotgun) . This column is well discussed here as there is often questions to the legality of shooting birds with rifles. This is a confusion were individuals are mixing up information such as the use of rifles on game birds which is not aloud.

For your information hunting, lose use of term, on 'public' land is a no no. I can't go down to the local park and hunt the rabbits by any means. This too is often a misunderstood concept, there is no public land weather it be parkland or mountain top that you can freely hunt on in Ireland. Any variation of this concept is controlled by licence issued freely or at a cost by the state or its representatives.

I'm not trying to pick at you, I'm fond of the catapult and use one myself and in the right hands they are deadly on small game but the rules are the rules no matter how stupid they seem.

Sparks

gunny123 wrote: »

Archery bows are commonly available to buy without any licence needed. They sure as hell make more than 1 joules.

Recurve and Compound bows only.
Crossbows are restricted firearms under the law (by accident, but it still applies).

Sparks

Son_of_Belial wrote: »

To be honest I shot the rook there because the lot of them were causing an irritation to me personally and they were on public land. I work from home and they were causing a racket so I killed that one rook in that picture. I had no other rhyme or reason other than that, and honestly I'm not yet sure how I feel about it. I'd never deliberately killed anything larger than a mouse up until then. Also, with all due respect, I can't find anything saying literally only a rifle or shotgun and nothing else. It says they can be killed "by any of the means" outlined but doesn't say that's exclusive. I think I might ask the Department in an email for clarification.

The reason it doesn't say they're exclusive there is because all birds are protected under the law. The derogation specifies the exemptions from that rule; if the derogation doesn't mention it as permitted, then the wildlife act says it's not.

Also, I'm pretty sure "it was annoying me" isn't listed as a valid reason...

extremetaz

Son_of_Belial wrote: »

It came with .38 calibre steel ball bearings which weigh roughly 3.5 grams apiece. ... A back-of-a-napkin test and calculation told me that my slingshot fires that ball bearing at roughly 1.183J.

Firstly, the kinetic energy equation is:
0.5*mass*velocity^2

and at a guestimated velocity of 100m/s (~300fps) at point of departure, that gives you:
0.5*0.0035kg*~100m/s == ~17.5J

which is a far more likely number for a projectile of that mass.
1.183J would only have the ball bearing going at ~26m/s and you could (easily) throw it that hard.


Edit: Sparks response came in whilst I was typing - his information should be considered more complete than this, but I didn't want to simply delete it.

Extremetaz wrote:

Son_of_Belial wrote: »

So, here's the question: Is it legal?

Yes, because of this:

Strider wrote: »

A slingshot doesn't have a muzzle.

and that law is all about this:

Son_of_Belial wrote: »

Semantics.

so don't ever discount it.


This on the other hand:

Son_of_Belial wrote: »

I also managed to shoot and mortally injure a crow with a .38 calibre bearing as well (graphic photograph attached). Any idea on the legality of that?

Is not legal - don't do it again.

cookimonster wrote: »

Just give you the heads up, last time I checked the use of a sling shots and bows for hunting of any kind is illegal in Ireland, so if I'm still correct then expect the Mods to

comment on this thread.

I'm not a mod but I can verify that information. You can hunt protected species by the means explicitly stated in the derogations only. Vermin may be dispatched/controlled by any of means legal within the state - those means do not include bows, crossbows, slingshots or pistols, all of which may only be used for target persuits (although slingshots are also used for delivering bait when fishing) and there may be others that should be in that list but that's all that comes to mind right now. I'm not even sure of the legallity of snares in Ireland anymore... (have they to be checked three times a day or something or are they gone outright at this stage?)

In response to this:

Son_of_Belial wrote: »

I also found the attached PDF which is the derogation I need. I might email Minister Humphrey's office and ask if anything outside of "rifle or shotgun", namely my slingshot, can be used to shoot rooks etc.

This is correct, and the latter half is particuarly pertinent:

cookimonster wrote: »

The derogation clearly outlines the 'only' methods of control , there are NO others.
Tell me for what purpose are you killing the birds?
You still have to be within the legal definition for controling the birds. For example a dairy farmer would not have a valid reason to shoot pigeons feeding on clover.

at the end of the day, although there are derogations in place providing for their dispatch, *ALL* birds are protected *ALL* year around. There are only very specific species which may be dispatched and in many cases only in very specific circumstances.


Finally, I just want to quickly revisit this:

Son_of_Belial wrote: »

I also managed to shoot and mortally injure a crow

This is not an example of humane dispatch, and is the precise reason why slingshots are not permitted as hunting tools - you have a duty to dispatch any quarry cleanly and with a minimum of suffering. The perfect dispatch sees the animal knocked out by the initial impact and expired before any chance to regain consiousness. 'Wounding' implies that the animal is left in an injured state for a prolonged period and that is simply not responsible fieldcraft. It happens to all of us early on for various reasons, but the responsibility is on the hunter to minimise the chance of it.

Cass

All birds are protected under Irish law. Section 34 of the 1976 Wildlife act (as amended by section 42 of the 2000 act) states to shoot any protected wild bird with a dart, arrow, spear, bolt, missile, etc. is an offense.

a person shall not hunt any wild bird, wild mammal or protected wild animal by means of a trap, snare, net, line, hook, arrow, dart, spear, instrument or missile or similar device however propelled,

The open seasons on the birds that can be shot are strictly regulated by section 33 of the 1976 act (as amended by section 41 of the 2000 act) and limit the shooting of all of them to unrestricted shotguns ONLY. Meaning no restricted shotguns and no rifles, etc.

Derogation allows for the use of a rifle, but only on certain species. Similarly some species can be controlled with poison and snares, but only those species and only under license by the NPWS.

Lastly all animals, whether bird or mammal protected or not, have basic rights. Meaning a humane and quick kill is a must. Slingshots don't offer this. Posting a picture of what you've done without checking BEFORE doing it is a case of closing the gate after the horse has bolted.

In short stop doing what you're doing.

Son_of_Belial

Right... I'll stop it so...

J.R.

Son_of_Belial wrote: »

I've been scouring the Irish Statute Book website though and have been unable to find any reference to sling shots/catapults.

WILDLIFE ACT !976

Certain use of traps, snares etc. prohibited.

34.—(1) Notwithstanding anything contained in this Act apart from this section but subject to section 42, a person shall not—
(a) hunt any wild bird or wild mammal by means of a trap, snare, net, line, hook, arrow, dart, spear or similar device, instrument or missile, or birdlime or any substance of a like nature, or any poisonous, poisoned or stupefying bait, or
(b) affix, place or set—
(i) any trap, snare or net for killing or taking a wild bird or a wild mammal, or
(ii) any line, hook or other device or instrument, calculated or likely to cause death or bodily injury to any wild bird or wild mammal coming in contact with it,
on any tree, pole, cairn or other structure in, or in the vicinity of, any place frequented by wild birds or by wild mammals, or

Son_of_Belial

J.R. wrote: »

WILDLIFE ACT !976

Certain use of traps, snares etc. prohibited.

34.—(1) Notwithstanding anything contained in this Act apart from this section but subject to section 42, a person shall not—
(a) hunt any wild bird or wild mammal by means of a trap, snare, net, line, hook, arrow, dart, spear or similar device, instrument or missile, or birdlime or any substance of a like nature, or any poisonous, poisoned or stupefying bait, or
(b) affix, place or set—
(i) any trap, snare or net for killing or taking a wild bird or a wild mammal, or
(ii) any line, hook or other device or instrument, calculated or likely to cause death or bodily injury to any wild bird or wild mammal coming in contact with it,
on any tree, pole, cairn or other structure in, or in the vicinity of, any place frequented by wild birds or by wild mammals, or

So basically, hunting rooks etc. with a sling shot is illegal. I mean, to be honest, the slingshot really is capable of being instantly lethal provided you don't take reckless shots and you take head-shots. That said, the law is the law and must be obeyed.