Garda Breath test scandal

Autochange

Why has there been no action against Gardai and their superiors for the falsification of of breath test samples?

How can no action be taken. Its unbelievable and seems to reinforce the idea of how corrupt this country is?

Not to mention the loss of respect and trust for the police force from the general public. Even after the anti water metering policing fiasco.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

It's a terror, isn't it?

TPD

I was wondering about that the other day. Surely every record in the system has some identifier of who created it - so why not find out the story behind every fraudulent record? If there's a plausible reason for it, let it come to light, and if not, surely that's a sackable offence? I'm sure there are plenty of folk ready and waiting to fill the boots of any discharged gardai.

Autochange

Autochange wrote: »

Why has there been no action against Gardai and their superiors for the falsification of of breath test samples?

I thought the signals were that they would face disciplinary action?

Presume it can be a slow process, trawling though all the records and then cross referencing it with records of prosecutions to work out which were false.

Donal55

The real scandal is that O'Sullivan is still there and FG/FF are still backing her.

Miike

Donal55 wrote: »

The real scandal is that O'Sullivan is still there and FG/FF are still backing her.

I'm not saying you're wrong as I just don't know but why is the garda commissioner in the wrong here? Is it known the she gave the order for the false test to be input to PULSE? I've not really been following the story at all but I can't wrap my head around why people are calling for her resignation off the bat? Can you give me a quick synopsis?

BillyBobBS

We don't do accountability for the establishment in Ireland.

Donal55

Miike wrote: »

I'm not saying you're wrong as I just don't know but why is the garda commissioner in the wrong here? Is it known the she gave the order for the false test to be input to PULSE? I've not really been following the story at all but I can't wrap my head around why people are calling for her resignation off the bat? Can you give me a quick synopsis?

Too many scandals under her watch, breath tests, false speeding convictions, carry on with finances at Templemore,....
The buck should stop there.

archer22

Donal55 wrote: »

Too many scandals under her watch, breath tests, false speeding convictions, carry on with finances at Templemore,....
The buck should stop there.

The "buck" shouldn't bypass those on the ground actually doing those things either.
The problem is much bigger than "senior management"...and trying to scratch all the Fleas on to them is just a deflection tactic to avoid dealing with the real problem which extends from top to bottom.

Donal55

archer22 wrote: »

The "buck" shouldn't bypass those on the ground actually doing those things either.
The problem is much bigger than "senior management"...and trying to scratch all the Fleas on to them is just a deflection tactic to avoid dealing with the real problem which extends from top to bottom.

I agree fully. Sack her and work all the way down.

smurgen

I'm wondering what the possible implications will be,if any for people who may have been put off the road for drink driving over the periods that these tests happened?i know those put off the road more than likely had blood/urine samples to prove guilt but some part of me think others may have grounds to question convictions etc.

Benjamin Buttons

Garda breath tests : I smell a rat!

Blanc von lobster

If they couldn't find out who was on duty when Clare Daly was arrested on suspicion of drunk driving, I don't have much confidence in a swift conclusion to this episode.

mynamejeff

http://www.thejournal.ie/breath-test-submissions-3589481-Sep2017/


an interesting perspective and makes the issue fairly clear

pressure from above to create statistics and very little emphasis put on accuracy or not


i agree heads should roll but lets make sure its the right heads

Autochange

https://youtu.be/c5fts7bj-so

jimmycrackcorm

I don't understand the hullabaloo about this scandal. It's very obvious to anybody who is on the road in any capacity, whether driving, being a passenger, cycling, walking that there are hardly any alcohol checks. The figures are no surprise to anyone.

If the real figures had been reported there wouldn't be any discussion regardless so the false / real figures have no effect. The real problem is still the same as it has always been. We have revenue oriented speed checks at opportunistic locations during the day and zero checkpoints outside full pub car parks at night.

smurgen

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I don't understand the hullabaloo about this scandal. It's very obvious to anybody who is on the road in any capacity, whether driving, being a passenger, cycling, walking that there are hardly any alcohol checks. The figures are no surprise to anyone.

If the real figures had been reported there wouldn't be any discussion regardless so the false / real figures have no effect. The real problem is still the same as it has always been. We have revenue oriented speed checks at opportunistic locations during the day and zero checkpoints outside full pub car parks at night.

They said they carried out a massive amount more tests than they did.each test and check point costs money to carry out.that money would have came from a budget.now it turns out that they were over reported by 100% in most areas.now even from a financial point of view we'd have to ask where the money for all of these non existant test went and where the man hours for all these false tests went.

Atoms for Peace

Noreen O'Sullivan needs another month on the job to get her gold plated pension. As we all know incompetence and malfeasance in the public service is to be rewarded with a handy job in Europe and/or a generous pension.

Captain Obvious

smurgen wrote: »

They said they carried out a massive amount more tests than they did.each test and check point costs money to carry out.that money would have came from a budget.now it turns out that they were over reported by 100% in most areas.now even from a financial point of view we'd have to ask where the money for all of these non existant test went and where the man hours for all these false tests went.

What financial cost are you talking about? If a Garda says he breathalysed fourteen drivers at a checkpoint instead of six then how is that costing the tax payer financially?

Nettle Soup

Donal55 wrote: »

The real scandal is that O'Sullivan is still there and FG/FF are still backing her.

Yes there is something really twisted about that.

She should have gone last year. It just encoursges the rot.

I dont see the Gardai ever recovering their credibility now.

maryishere

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

Noreen O'Sullivan needs another month on the job to get her gold plated pension. As we all know incompetence and malfeasance in the public service is to be rewarded with a handy job in Europe and/or a generous pension.

Nail on the head. How many people in the Central Bank were punished, and they damaged the country much worse.

smurgen

Captain Obvious wrote: »

What financial cost are you talking about? If a Garda says he breathalysed fourteen drivers at a checkpoint instead of six then how is that costing the tax payer financially?

Material costs.each breath test needs a once off use tube.opportunity cost also.police hours should be accounted for.what were the cops really doing when they were meant to be doing these checkpoints?also maybe some cops earned overtime while manning these imaginary checkpoints

Captain Obvious

smurgen wrote: »

Material costs.each breath test needs a once off use tube.

What? If they weren't doing the tests then why would the plastic tube be used?

smurgen wrote: »

opportunity cost also.police hours should be accounted for.what were the cops really doing when they were meant to be doing these checkpoints?also maybe some cops earned overtime while manning these imaginary checkpoints

I haven't seen anything saying checkpoints weren't done. The issue is that many cars weren't being breathalysed at them.

Nettle Soup

She finally resigned. The massive pension be due.

Miike

Captain Obvious wrote: »

What? If they weren't doing the tests then why would the plastic tube be used?

Procurement costs and they have an expiry date :pac:

Esel

Captain Obvious wrote: »

What? If they weren't doing the tests then why would the plastic tube be used?

What would be the cost to the state to buy 1.5m tubes?

If these never actually existed... nice earner...

Are Am Eye

The cost of Bonuses paid to Chief Superintendents and Superintendents for 'achieving' these targets. Targets that were never met as we now know. Is there a plan in place to retrieve this money for the exchequer? Will those who received bonuses based on ficticious statistics now be investigated for fraud?

smurgen

Captain Obvious wrote: »

What? If they weren't doing the tests then why would the plastic tube be used?



I haven't seen anything saying checkpoints weren't done. The issue is that many cars weren't being breathalysed at them.

So the time spent administering breath tests was wasted. Lets put it into perspective. Assume a breath test takes 5 minutes to administer in total. That means given 500k were falsly reported rather than performed that 41,667 police hours are now unaccounted for.

TheChizler

smurgen wrote: »

So the time spent administering breath tests was wasted. Lets put it into perspective. Assume a breath test takes 5 minutes to administer in total. That means given 500k were falsly reported rather than performed that 41,667 police hours are now unaccounted for.

It's the time they were present at the checkpoint that was counted, not some time per test. It just seems like a badly designed reporting system, where there's pressure, either intentional or unintentional, to push the numbers upwards.

smurgen

TheChizler wrote: »

It's the time they were present at the checkpoint that was counted, not some time per test. It just seems like a badly designed reporting system, where there's pressure, either intentional or unintentional, to push the numbers upwards.

But they could have been carrying out other operations instead of standing around manning checkpoints

smurgen

It would make ya wonder about their overtime figures too.how much are those inflated?

TheChizler

smurgen wrote: »

But they could have been carrying out other operations instead of standing around manning checkpoints

I'm not sure what your complaint is here, they did the checkpoints they say they did it seems, they misreported the number tested at these checkpoints. The same manpower was used regardless. Are you saying they should have done less checkpoints than they actually did?

smurgen

TheChizler wrote: »

I'm not sure what your complaint is here, they did the checkpoints they say they did it seems, they misreported the number tested at these checkpoints. The same manpower was used regardless. Are you saying they should have done less checkpoints than they actually did?

i'm saying that it sounds like they stood out at these checkpoints and done nothing. then they entered false breath tests to make it sound like they done something.A massive waste of time that could have been better spent solving crimes and protecting the community.

TheChizler

smurgen wrote: »

i'm saying that it sounds like they stood out at these checkpoints and done nothing. then they entered false breath tests to make it sound like they done something.A massive waste of time that could have been better spent solving crimes and protecting the community.

Maybe, but I haven't seen anywhere suggesting they were just standing at these checkpoints watching cars go by. The trouble seemed to happen when due to lack of training, incompetence, or just plain intention, when reporting the stats after a checkpoint cars which were stopped but not breathalysed were reported as breathalysed, if no cars passed by in the middle of nowhere they reported a tokrn number stopped so the checkpoint wouldn't go unrecorded, or they say they didn't believe the accuracy of the stats to be important so guessed or overestimated the numbers. Nothing suggests they werent actually out there stopping drink drivers.

Just seems like a problem in the collecting of information, not in the actual quality of work.

Captain Obvious

Esel wrote: »

What would be the cost to the state to buy 1.5m tubes?

If these never actually existed... nice earner...

Who said they never existed?

smurgen wrote: »

So the time spent administering breath tests was wasted. Lets put it into perspective. Assume a breath test takes 5 minutes to administer in total.

30 seconds at most.

smurgen wrote: »

That means given 500k were falsly reported rather than performed that 41,667 police hours are now unaccounted for.

Seems to be a bit of confusion there. They were still stopping cars and doing checkpoints, they just weren't breathalysing them.

smurgen

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Who said they never existed?



30 seconds at most.



Seems to be a bit of confusion there. They were still stopping cars and doing checkpoints, they just weren't breathalysing them.

so what were they doing? waving cars on? what use is that? Why did they enter tests that didn't exist? Also 30 seconds for a breath test? hahahaha

Wamwig

I'm more concerned about how widespread the misreporting is. I'd understand if it was one particular area but nationwide.....that's just showing it was normal practice to over state the numbers and everyone must have know it was going on

Captain Obvious

smurgen wrote: »

so what were they doing? waving cars on? what use is that?

Same thing they do at regular checkpoints.

smurgen wrote: »

Why did they enter tests that didn't exist? Also 30 seconds for a breath test? hahahaha

Have you ever done one? You just blow in a tube for a few seconds.

smurgen

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Same thing they do at regular checkpoints.



Have you ever done one? You just blow in a tube for a few seconds.

so they just put a tube to your lips? they don't say anything? Is your car still rolling when this happens?

realitykeeper

Esperanza Straight Newsletter wrote: »

It's a terror, isn't it?

Perhaps more than you imagine. My concern is that the Gardaí were not replacing the mouthpieces between breath tests. For all we know they could have been just wiping off the saliva of the previous driver with an old hanky and reusing it over and over out of laziness. Claiming to falsify test results does not seem as diabolical by comparison so hopefully that is all that happened, unacceptable as it is.

ardinn

This isnt a scandal really

Its a guard who needs 20 tests in the pissíng rain going - NOPE - and blowing 19 and doing one fella. The heading back to the station for the tae!!

No-one was harmed here, not one of us can claim to have never done something similar in work!!!

ohnonotgmail

realitykeeper wrote: »

Perhaps more than you imagine. My concern is that the Gardaí were not replacing the mouthpieces between breath tests. For all we know they could have been just wiping off the saliva of the previous driver with an old hanky and reusing it over and over out of laziness. Claiming to falsify test results does not seem as diabolical by comparison so hopefully that is all that happened, unacceptable as it is.

the tubes are disposable and you get to keep them afterwards.

Nettle Soup

O'Loan said today that the Gardai wasted roughly 125,000 hours falsifying breath tests.

Miike

Nettle Soup wrote: »

O'Loan said today that the Gardai wasted roughly 125,000 hours falsifying breath tests.

Got a link for that? That's a lot of hours :eek:

realitykeeper

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

the tubes are disposable and you get to keep them afterwards.

Still no guarantee the mouthpieces were not being reused, I was breathalized once and was not given the mouthpiece. No doubt I would have been given it if I asked but how would I know the previous driver got his mouthpiece? I am not saying that is what was happening but the falsified results do raise the possibility.

Nettle Soup

Miike wrote: »

Got a link for that? That's a lot of hours :eek:

She said it on the radio. She said it takes at least 5 mins to operate, replace the tube and log a breath test on the system.

They falsified 1,500,000 breath tests.

(1,500,000 * 5 / 60)

ohnonotgmail

Nettle Soup wrote: »

She said it on the radio. She said it takes at least 5 mins to operate, replace the tube and log a breath test on the system.

They falsified 1,500,000 breath tests.

(1,500,000 * 5 / 60)

except they didnt actually do the first two parts, did they?

ardinn

realitykeeper wrote: »

Still no guarantee the mouthpieces were not being reused, I was breathalized once and was not given the mouthpiece. No doubt I would have been given it if I asked but how would I know the previous driver got his mouthpiece? I am not saying that is what was happening but the falsified results do raise the possibility.

Been tested loadsa times

each time mouthpiece was unpackaged in front of me.

mikhail

ardinn wrote: »

This isnt a scandal really

Its a guard who needs 20 tests in the pissíng rain going - NOPE - and blowing 19 and doing one fella. The heading back to the station for the tae!!

No-one was harmed here, not one of us can claim to have never done something similar in work!!!

No, the numbers are nothing remotely like that. Last figures I heard, they were fabricating about every second test.

realitykeeper wrote: »

Still no guarantee the mouthpieces were not being reused, I was breathalized once and was not given the mouthpiece. No doubt I would have been given it if I asked but how would I know the previous driver got his mouthpiece? I am not saying that is what was happening but the falsified results do raise the possibility.

ardinn wrote: »

Been tested loadsa times

each time mouthpiece was unpackaged in front of me.

I've only been done the once, but again, it was in a sealed package.

mynamejeff

Nettle Soup wrote: »

She said it on the radio. She said it takes at least 5 mins to operate, replace the tube and log a breath test on the system.

They falsified 1,500,000 breath tests.

(1,500,000 * 5 / 60)

but isnt the point of the allegations that they didn't do the first two . just rang up the call center and said they did ?

if they didnt do the tests then they didn't waste the man hours surely they were doing something else.


this whole thing is sort o a non runner and people are trying o turn it into a massive conspiracy

Captain Obvious

Nettle Soup wrote: »

She said it on the radio. She said it takes at least 5 mins to operate, replace the tube and log a breath test on the system.

They falsified 1,500,000 breath tests.

(1,500,000 * 5 / 60)

That's just nonsense. Maybe if they were done individually you could claim that but it's still a stretch.