EU, Brexit and ammo prices.

Grizzly 45

Came across an interesting comment on FB from the UK practical shotgun page by Mike Lindsay. I think it is worth a read, as we import almost all of our ammo from the UK/NI FIK.
So what happens with us here? We will be technically importing from a non-EU country back into an EU country.Which the Eurocrat Stasi don't want you to do as there are high enough tariffs on stuff coming from the US and points afield. Whilst paying the Euro/STG difference as well.The kicker is, the UK imports most if not all of its ammo from the EU countries.!This means we are at the end of a double whammy here! Buying EU ammo, imported into ,and then exported again from a non-EU country back into an EU country!!You can be sure both wholesale dealers in the UK and the ROI are going to be putting STIFF markups on their stuff to cover all this, and we the Irish shooter will be on the very end of a long line of mark ups.Am beginning to wonder would a ammo making factory like the old IMI plant in the 60s and 70s, start to become a viable idea again here?:P
Thoughts after reading this?


THE GREAT BREXIT RIP-OFF 🇬🇧
Shooters in the UK never get it easy, we have to put up with mountains of red tape, some of the most draconian gun laws in Europe, a blatantly biased anti-gun press and a general population that are completely and utterly clueless about firearms.
We are, let's face it, under constant scrutiny and vilified at any opportunity. So when I see something that unfairly effects us I feel it is my duty as a shooter in the public eye to call it out.
SO WHAT IS IT MIKE?
It's the root of many peoples woes............money. Or to be more specific, certain people in the industry trying to rip us off.
I'm sure many of you have noticed that the price of ammo is increasing, from the 22LR to the 12 gauge. And it's not just getting more expensive for those that prefer to just buy their rounds as gunpowder is increasing also.
Being of a curious mind I asked a friend of mine that owns a gun store what was going on, and what he shown me was eye opening to say the least. You see when he gets a shipment of ammo he also gets a slip with the RRP etc.
On his latest delivery the prices had increased dramatically. A box of .308 for example was £15 more than before.
When he asked why he got a 3 word answer, "It's Brexit mate".
Bull****. We aren't even out of Europe yet and manufacturers/distributors are already taking the piss.
The same happened me when I went to another shop to get some American Eagle. (I find it to be a very good round for the price). As I handed my license over I asked "what's the total?" to which it was more than I expected, a whole 20% more. Again the question was asked, "why's it so expensive?", to which I got the same 3 word answer.
I gave the same reply, "Bull****, we aren't out of Europe yet and this ammo is American". He just shrugged and said, "nothing I can do".
Of course exchange rates etc are partly to blame, the margins of increase however don't seem to add up.
BAD FOR BUSINESS
At the end of the day it's not the suppliers that get the blame but the little guy, the shop owners. The ones that make the least with the whole deal, yet they are the ones that get talked about and vilified.
Then in my experience it is the shops that always get the worst deal. Their red tape is a sea compared to ours. (Licensing doesn't always make life easy either)
While the fat cats rub their hands and blame "Brexit" they are holding the UK shooter to ransom. We do after all contribute much to the economy as our sport isn't exactly cheap to begin with. But to increase prices so blatantly and blame the UK voting to leave the EU as a valid excuse is far fetched.
But then, they know there is little we can do about it. They have a monopoly here, we can't just walk into ASDA (Walmart) and buy ammo like our American cousins. No, they can charge what they like and they know we will pay as we have no alternative.
And if you do make your own they will just charge you more for the supplies.
Then the great British public won't care, as in their eyes there should be no guns at all, foxes are cute and defecate rainbows, Trump is bad because MSM told them so and "we need more refugees".
I can tell you it's not the last time we will see these increases or this flimsy excuse. Hopefully we can negotiate some good deals with the USA post Brexit. Cheap American ammo would be most appreciated if this trend continues over here.
But that's just my 2 cents. 🇬🇧🇺🇸
-Mike Lindsay

Baker.22

This should be of great concern to us, you can see a dramatic increase in ammo prices in the UK and very soon this will transfer to the ROI as virtually all of our ammo comes through the UK even though it is made in Europe. I have attempted to import from Europe but no chance; possibly through a dealer but not from the manufacturer; say batch tested ammo. What can we do ? Nothing unless someone here becomes the Sole Irish agent for each brand, for example at present Ruag UK are the agents for many brands (including RWS) for Ireland and UK, surely this will not continue after Brexit ???

Peregrinus

Mike's not the brightest, I'm afraid. The UK isn't yet out of the EU, but the pound sterling has already declined against the euro, and this explains why the sterling price of ammunition imported into the UK from the EU has risen. Similarly for ammunition imported from the US. Mike should realise this.

In principle this shouldn't affect Ireland. In practice, as long as imports are routed through an agent based in the UK, it probably will.

Even before Brexit, having an Irish agent based in the UK was already a very stupid idea. The supply chain involves two sets of foreign exchange charges; the Irish retailer/importer pays to convert euro to sterling in order to buy from the UK agent, who pays to convert sterling to euros to buy from the EU manufacturer (or who pays to convert sterling to dollars to buy from the US manufacturer). It becomes even more stupid after Brexit, since there will be entirely avoidable border delays, inspections, etc, and quite possibly entirely avoidable tariffs to pay.

Presumably, though, the people who hold exclusive agencies for the UK and RoI have contracts with the manufacturers, and they can't be terminated without some cost, and the Irish market may not be large enough to interest most manufacturers in the trouble and expense of terminating existing arrangements and finding a new agent for Ireland. Over time, though, as agency arrangements come up for review/renewal, the inefficiency and stupidity of the existing arrangements should create an opportunity for someone who can set up a more rational arrangement for Ireland which cuts out the value-subtracting UK middleman to pitch for appointment as Irish agent.

cavan shooter

Similiar conversation on newstalk this morning regarding High Street Prices and Sterling conversion. excuse is we bought when the prices where the other way. Advise is buy on line and buy in pounds not euro as then you get the banks rate.

Difficult for ammo yes, hopefully it will come round Fiochi shells are now eye watering expensive.

Cass

Peregrinus wrote: »

Mike's not the brightest, I'm afraid. The UK isn't yet out of the EU,

He says that in his statement:

Mike Lindsay wrote:

Bull****. We aren't even out of Europe yet and manufacturers/distributors are already taking the piss.

but the pound sterling has already declined against the euro, and this explains why the sterling price of ammunition imported into the UK from the EU has risen.

I got an e-mail a few months back from one particular UK supplier/distributor that i've used a few times. The e-mail basically said he was raising the price of all products by 10% to cover the devaluation of the Pound. No other reason. not that the price to buy has risen, the shipping costs have risen, etc. Just that the value of the Pound had dropped so he was raising his prices.

I understand the basics of what and why he was doing what he was doing but i thought for just a moment "cheeky git".

In principle this shouldn't affect Ireland. In practice, as long as imports are routed through an agent based in the UK, it probably will.

I won't pretend to understand all the legalities of Brexit, but from what i've been watching on the news businesses are pulling out of the UK at an increasing rate, and Brexit means that existing trade deals with other countries must be negotiated. I know they are referring to country to country and not each individual small business agreement, but would brexit not mean that suppliers to the UK (which then supply other countries) would seek to try and find another supplier?

It becomes even more stupid after Brexit, since there will be entirely avoidable border delays, inspections, etc, and quite possibly entirely avoidable tariffs to pay.

Was going to ask about this.

Brexit will change the legal position of goods and the shipping of them acorss Europe via the UK. Will goods not now need to "avoid" the UK because of such issues? As you said:

Over time, though, as agency arrangements come up for review/renewal, the inefficiency and stupidity of the existing arrangements should create an opportunity for someone who can set up a more rational arrangement for Ireland which cuts out the value-subtracting UK middleman to pitch for appointment as Irish agent.

cavan shooter wrote: »

Difficult for ammo yes, hopefully it will come round Fiochi shells are now eye watering expensive.

Funny, as soon as the increase in ammo was mentioned the first thing that came to my mind was Fiocchi too. The 50 round, BT ammo was available here at first for around €36. It went up to €40, then €42 and i believe some are asking upwards of €49 for it now.

Its not just Fiocchi though. I've seen the price of most stuff rise, and not just ammo, firearms too. I know some things will rise in price as they become more popular but recently i was talking to a lad about the Ruger Precision rifle. When he bought it a couple fo years back it was €1,495. He wanted to go for another in a different caliber, but was quoted €2,300 for the rifle. I assume like most other stuff it comes through the UK so with price increase, pound devaluation, etc. the rifle costs €800 more than 2 years ago.

123shooter

Peregrinus wrote: »

Mike's not the brightest, I'm afraid. The UK isn't yet out of the EU, but the pound sterling has already declined against the euro, and this explains why the sterling price of ammunition imported into the UK from the EU has risen. Similarly for ammunition imported from the US. Mike should realise this.

In principle this shouldn't affect Ireland. In practice, as long as imports are routed through an agent based in the UK, it probably will.

Even before Brexit, having an Irish agent based in the UK was already a very stupid idea. The supply chain involves two sets of foreign exchange charges; the Irish retailer/importer pays to convert euro to sterling in order to buy from the UK agent, who pays to convert sterling to euros to buy from the EU manufacturer (or who pays to convert sterling to dollars to buy from the US manufacturer). It becomes even more stupid after Brexit, since there will be entirely avoidable border delays, inspections, etc, and quite possibly entirely avoidable tariffs to pay.

Presumably, though, the people who hold exclusive agencies for the UK and RoI have contracts with the manufacturers, and they can't be terminated without some cost, and the Irish market may not be large enough to interest most manufacturers in the trouble and expense of terminating existing arrangements and finding a new agent for Ireland. Over time, though, as agency arrangements come up for review/renewal, the inefficiency and stupidity of the existing arrangements should create an opportunity for someone who can set up a more rational arrangement for Ireland which cuts out the value-subtracting UK middleman to pitch for appointment as Irish agent.

But the point is .... Anybody in business will only do something if it is worth their while and they can make a pound/euro from it.

Trouble is the EU and especially Ireland put that many hurdles in place that setting up some kind of agency for stuff and especially this stuff that it's only worthwhile if the prices to the consumer are high.

Most probably why everything costs so much more in Ireland? I am afraid regards shooting where there are lots of import regs that shooting goods if it survives will just get a lot more expensive.

High prices mean less sales so just a downward spiral in every case.

As regards other goods.........The UK will not be bound by ridiculous EU rules so they can do what they want and even do away with VAT if they wish and there is nothing that can stop them. They could be the cheapest place for goods in the whole of Western Europe and a magnet for all Irish consumers.

Enniskillin will become the Irish shoppers Mecca after Brexit and you watch Irish border guards reappear everywhere as Irish retailers go broke with imported items coming from every direction via the internet:)

Remember booze cruises?.......You aint seen nothing yet.

I'm afraid Leo is very green behind the gills.

123shooter

Anything on Brexit reported in the Irish media and especially by radio and television jocks I would completely ignore because they are so biased towards Brexit. In fact you will not find them mention one positive thing for Brexit or Britain, only the opposite.

So what you have according to them is that Ireland is parked right next to 60 million uneducated, racist, stupid, thick, biased, self serving, inward looking, mistaken, foolish, bankrupt, unemployed, gullible, etc etc.

But half of the Irish workforce is working there and they have record employment and they havent yet cut the ropes with Brussels so they can let everything go and do what they want and drop all the enforced taxes and regulations which stifle them..............but you will never see that in Irish media or from a radio jock and TV pundit.

Funny old world aint it.

gunny123

123shooter wrote: »

But the point is .... Anybody in business will only do something if it is worth their while and they can make a pound/euro from it.

Trouble is the EU and especially Ireland put that many hurdles in place that setting up some kind of agency for stuff and especially this stuff that it's only worthwhile if the prices to the consumer are high.

Most probably why everything costs so much more in Ireland? I am afraid regards shooting where there are lots of import regs that shooting goods if it survives will just get a lot more expensive.

High prices mean less sales so just a downward spiral in every case.

As regards other goods.........The UK will not be bound by ridiculous EU rules so they can do what they want and even do away with VAT if they wish and there is nothing that can stop them. They could be the cheapest place for goods in the whole of Western Europe and a magnet for all Irish consumers.

Enniskillin will become the Irish shoppers Mecca after Brexit and you watch Irish border guards reappear everywhere as Irish retailers go broke with imported items coming from every direction via the internet:)

Remember booze cruises?.......You aint seen nothing yet.

I'm afraid Leo is very green behind the gills.

Leo is all froth and bubble. All he is concerned with, is his personal image, trying to hang with the cool kids like Trudeau and Macron, and having his photograph taken. You have to be a bad fg'er to have the indo turn on you.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/gene-kerrigan/varadkar-not-much-done-more-to-spoof-36094767.html

I hope there is some irish input on the deal over the border, not just negotiations between the british and the eu, with us handed something signed sealed and delivered at the end.

ezra_

Cass wrote: »

He says that in his statement:


I got an e-mail a few months back from one particular UK supplier/distributor that i've used a few times. The e-mail basically said he was raising the price of all products by 10% to cover the devaluation of the Pound. No other reason. not that the price to buy has risen, the shipping costs have risen, etc. Just that the value of the Pound had dropped so he was raising his prices.

I understand the basics of what and why he was doing what he was doing but i thought for just a moment "cheeky git".

I won't pretend to understand all the legalities of Brexit, but from what i've been watching on the news businesses are pulling out of the UK at an increasing rate, and Brexit means that existing trade deals with other countries must be negotiated. I know they are referring to country to country and not each individual small business agreement, but would brexit not mean that suppliers to the UK (which then supply other countries) would seek to try and find another supplier?

Your buddy is giving you a good deal - Sterling has fallen more than 10% since April and has been in a slide since November 2015. Back then, you'd get 1.42 EUR for every pound, now you are getting 1.07 EUR for your pound.

As an isolated event - this is good right? Things that we pay for in Sterling are now cheaper.

However, given that what we buy in from Britain is usually either sourced from the EU, or made from inputs from the EU, their costs have gone up by €0.35 'per pound' in two years,

You are right in that we should source new suppliers here, and cut out Sterling land. However, from the perspective of mainland Europe, we are a small market at the best of times and seen as a component of the UK. This is because we generally don't speak the language, don't have the relationships with the manufactures and don't have clear and direct trade routes (most of our shipping comes in via the UK).

For niche things like ammo / firearms, we are probably just a rounding error of the UK market. Why would RWS (for example) deal with us, when they'd ship probably 3 to 4 times our total annual demand to a single UK client in a single order? Esp as those UK dealers have been running our orders over the last few years

Our wagon has been hitched to the UK for decades; it will be a messy and slow process to start building up the trade relationships to get around this.

123shooter

ezra_ wrote: »

Your buddy is giving you a good deal - Sterling has fallen more than 10% since April and has been in a slide since November 2015. Back then, you'd get 1.42 EUR for every pound, now you are getting 1.07 EUR for your pound.

As an isolated event - this is good right? Things that we pay for in Sterling are now cheaper.

However, given that what we buy in from Britain is usually either sourced from the EU, or made from inputs from the EU, their costs have gone up by €0.35 'per pound' in two years,

You are right in that we should source new suppliers here, and cut out Sterling land. However, from the perspective of mainland Europe, we are a small market at the best of times and seen as a component of the UK. This is because we generally don't speak the language, don't have the relationships with the manufactures and don't have clear and direct trade routes (most of our shipping comes in via the UK).

For niche things like ammo / firearms, we are probably just a rounding error of the UK market. Why would RWS (for example) deal with us, when they'd ship probably 3 to 4 times our total annual demand to a single UK client in a single order? Esp as those UK dealers have been running our orders over the last few years

Our wagon has been hitched to the UK for decades; it will be a messy and slow process to start building up the trade relationships to get around this.

You may find in your research that today 2017 your Irish market is too tiny to bother with? If this is the case then the suppliers will stay the same as now but this supply chain has problems with whatever restrictions/regulations (if any) are imposed after Brexit.

If more restrictions or regulations are imposed then perhaps people will leave as retailers so.........the end?

gunny123

123shooter wrote: »

You may find in your research that today 2017 your Irish market is too tiny to bother with? If this is the case then the suppliers will stay the same as now but this supply chain has problems with whatever restrictions/regulations (if any) are imposed after Brexit.

If more restrictions or regulations are imposed then perhaps people will leave as retailers so.........the end?

Even large companies dealing in everyday commonplace things like groceries see us as a tiny market. Tescos treat ireland as a single account, we've only the same population as a few counties in the uk.

Nekarsulm

123shooter wrote: »

Enniskillin will become the Irish shoppers Mecca after Brexit and you watch Irish border guards reappear everywhere as Irish retailers go broke with imported items coming from every direction s.

Dealers don't do much to help themselves though.

The wife is looking for a nice handy 20 gauge O/U shotgun, as a first gun.
A local dealer here in Cavan was telling me about a Bettinsoli a UK colleague has, but he has to bring it in from the UK first.
However he doesn't want to bring in in unless we more or less commit to buying it first. Sight unseen, before even putting it to her shoulder.
His price is "about the 1000 Euro mark".

Took a run up to Maguiresbridge on Wednesday (beside Enniskillen) and the dealer there has the very same gun on the shelf for 750 Sterling.

With the way Sterling is going, by the time a licence would come through, it wouldn't cost much more than 800 euro.
He has lylevale trap cartridges at 4.50 a box, sterling.

I agree that the Irish Customs will be quick to reappear if any kind of "hard" border appears.

By the way, what is there to prevent a RFD here buying a container of Fiocchi (or whatever) and backloading over on the Oscar Wilde?