Chapter 2 - Finding Nemo

Duanington

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Its only in the last two races that I've noticed that when I start to feel really crappy my heart rate is usually at or above 174. It hasn't been a conscious thing ive looked for. As a person, by nature I'm very analytical. I love data points and all that crap so it's just something of note as opposed to a rule. I'll put it to you this way I wouldn't consciously race by heart rate. But I know if I go above a certain level i cant sustain it for very long.

The plan going in to Adare was to run as hard as I can for the distance and not bomb out like last week. I feel like I was right on my limit for mile 5 into mile 6.

I would consider anything to be honest. Although it would kill me not to have the data afterwards to look at what happened in terms of splits etc. haha

Got it - and it makes sense to give a good look over the data afterwards etc....BUT I think we can do that to our detriment at times. I think we progress by pushing ourselves in races, by extending those limits bit by bit over time. I wouldn't let the numbers influence you too much P, I think we can fall into a no win situation then because the watch rarely gives you good news during a race ( especially when you feel crap) and the temptation can be to ease off with that " I can't hold that pace\HR for long anyway" doubt being turned from a doubt to a fact in an instant.

Obviously there's a balance to be found between going out like a looper and pushing to our limits but I think the live data on a watch can be a) unreliable and b) something we start to lean on a bit too much over time.

Especially for these races that aren't necessarily target races, sounds like you managed it very well yesterday but then who's to say that you couldn't have held that HR for a bit longer? ( you dropped the pace right down for the finish after all) The nature of your training will make you stronger as time progresses so why not put that to the test every now and then?

Well done again, great to see the progression...lots more to come

Safiri

Did you mean 11th March for the next race? If so, that is the county road championships in Kilmallock which I'm pretty sure you have to be a athletics ireland club member to run in as is a club championship.

AuldManKing

Super work there, its great when hard work gets rewarded with a big PB.

You'd a sub 30 5 mile in there too

Swashbuckler

Safiri wrote: »

Did you mean 11th March for the next race? If so, that is the county road championships in Kilmallock which I'm pretty sure you have to be a athletics ireland club member to run in as is a club championship.

Oh good spot. Cheers for that. I'll have to keep my eye out for something else so!

Swashbuckler

AuldManKing wrote: »

Super work there, its great when hard work gets rewarded with a big PB.

You'd a sub 30 5 mile in there too

Haha you know I hadn't even considered that. Another demon exorcised.

Swashbuckler

Duanington wrote: »

Got it - and it makes sense to give a good look over the data afterwards etc....BUT I think we can do that to our detriment at times. I think we progress by pushing ourselves in races, by extending those limits bit by bit over time. I wouldn't let the numbers influence you too much P, I think we can fall into a no win situation then because the watch rarely gives you good news during a race ( especially when you feel crap) and the temptation can be to ease off with that " I can't hold that pace\HR for long anyway" doubt being turned from a doubt to a fact in an instant.

Obviously there's a balance to be found between going out like a looper and pushing to our limits but I think the live data on a watch can be a) unreliable and b) something we start to lean on a bit too much over time.

Especially for these races that aren't necessarily target races, sounds like you managed it very well yesterday but then who's to say that you couldn't have held that HR for a bit longer? ( you dropped the pace right down for the finish after all) The nature of your training will make you stronger as time progresses so why not put that to the test every now and then?

Well done again, great to see the progression...lots more to come

Some great points there D. This race in particular was more about getting back on the horse after falling off it in Lahinch. haha. I had been moving towards running purely on feel and using the watch less. I felt yesterday that I needed it back a bit but long term I plan on going down the slow and painful learning process of running on feel.

In the long term i'll definitely look at pushing the limits, but in this case, just a week after bombing out completely, I decided on a different approach. haha. In saying that I still felt like death at mile 6.

ariana`

Wow that's a cracking pb! And it sounds like a well executed race. Well done.

Swashbuckler

I think I had a week similar to most although we got lucky enough in Limerick. It wasn't really until Friday that running became an issue.

Monday and Tuesday - 7 miles easy. Both run at ~8:15/mile pace as the legs were still recovering from Adare. By Tuesday I was fine again. Cold temperatures in these runs so the tights made an appearance. Real men wear tights.

Wednesday - 5 x 1M @ 6:30/mile pace off 90s. The idea here was the get the blood flowing in the legs. Nothing too strenuous although effort level picked up a bit when I turned into a headwind for a couple of the mile repeats.

Splits: 6:29/6:23/6:26/6:31/6:23

It was cold out but after the first mile repeat I warmed up nicely. Ironically the warmup never really warms me up properly. It usually takes one interval to really get me going. The 6:30 pace feels ok for me now. Six months back this probably would have been more in the comfortably hard range whereas now it's comfortable. These went ok. Solid controlled running.

Thursday - 7 miles easy . 8min/mile. We were told to be out of work and home before 4pm. This was pre-blizzasr in Limerick. There was something in the air alright. You could feel it coming.

Friday - As expected I looked out the window Friday morning and knew I wasnt getting out. Even driving to the gym wasnt an option. Completely snowed in. A day for the fire and relaxation. Session abandoned. Hate missing sessions!

Saturday - Snow starting to melt but still way too dodgy for footpath running. Drove to a few parks but they were way too dodgy too. Had to settle for the treadmill and 12.5 miles staring at the wall. To be honest I was glad to be moving so it was fine. Only when you cant run do you realise how good it is for your mental health. 18000 odd steps on teh treadmill. A fun afternoon!

Sunday - Rest (Although Id have loved to run but stick with the plan!)

Swashbuckler

With snow week well and truly behind us (in Limerick anyway) I was looking forward to hopefully ramping it up a bit this week. Missed my Friday session last week and had to do the long run on the treadmill so I awaited my plan for the week with interest. It duly arrived and on paper it looked like I was in for a tough week. I've come to expect a really tough week a few weeks out from a race and this was certainly it.

Monday - Usual 7M at 8.02min/mile.

Tuesday - 2x800/4x1M/2x600 Off 2min. 800s target 5.50min/mile pace.1M target 6.00min/mile pace. 600s target 5.45min/mile pace.......... Yikes......

Ever see a session on paper and you think "that session is gonna kick my ass" and then you do it and think "this session is kicking my ass" and then afterwards you think "Jesus that session kicked my ass"? This was that day. And I loved it. Very tough session. Especially the middle mile intervals.

800s paces 5.55 and 5.48
Mile paces 5.56 5.54 5.57 5.59
600s paces 5.44 and 5.46

Pretty close to where I wanted to be especially the mile intervals. Just easier to settle into the pace. Felt great after. I do tend to find the longer intervals that small bit tougher. Speed endurance is something I've typically been a bit weak on. It will be interesting when I hit the ten mile and HM distance in April/May. But for now, all good and a big confidence builder of a session.

Wednesday - 7M at 8.09min/mile. Tired legs for this.

Thursday - 7M at 8.03min/mile. Starting to feel a little less tired but still feeling Tuesday a bit.

Friday - 20min Tempo at 6.15 pace. 4min jog. 5x1min at 5k effort.
The tempo section here was exactly as it should be. Legs had recovered from Tuesday and I felt solid. Pace was pretty much bang on for the 20min section. Comfortably hard. Was glad to finish the tempo section but was capable of more. Took the 4min jog easy and then into the 5x1min. Went pretty hard on a couple. One of them was up a hill so I pushed a bit.

Paces for the 1mins were 5.23/ 5.45/ 5.33/ 5.32/ 5.19. I always get a sense of relief when I finish that last bit of the session on a Friday. Feels like a very solid week done and managed the sessions. I know there's a long run the next day but I never really worry about those unless they have "stuff". I find the Saturday long runs are usually just a nice long stroll. This week was a little different as the legs were tired after a hard week.

Saturday - 14M at 8.09min/mile
Legs were feeling the fatigue especially by mile 11. Nice run though and a very solid week done.

Total miles for the week: 52.3

Building nicely towards Ennis at the end of the month. Race 3 of the Run Clare series and a very flat 10k.

AuldManKing

I must read back on your sessions as I reckon they'll be my sessions in the coming weeks/months!

Swashbuckler

AuldManKing wrote:

I must read back on your sessions as I reckon they'll be my sessions in the coming weeks/months!

I have them all in an Excel file if that would make your life easier? 14 weeks of good solid 5k and 10k work. Loved every minute. Hoping to go back to that after the Tuamgraney 10 and limerick half. But we'll see what L thinks.

AuldManKing

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I have them all in an Excel file if that would make your life easier? 14 weeks of good solid 5k and 10k work. Loved every minute. Hoping to go back to that after the Tuamgraney 10 and limerick half. But we'll see what L thinks.

PM'd you.

Swashbuckler

Quick question for anyone who takes the time to read my ramblings.....

Specifically on sessions and effort level. I ran a 7x1k today with reducing Recoveries. Target effort level was 5.55 pace so pretty much 10k effort.

Are you supposed to maintain the same effort level throughout or should the effort get harder towards the end? By the 7th interval I was probably feeling controlled but somewhere near the effort of the middle/latter stages of a race. Should effort level drop back at this point or should I be pushing through?

Does this question even make sense? Haha

OOnegative

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Quick question for anyone who takes the time to read my ramblings.....

Specifically on sessions and effort level. I ran a 7x1k today with reducing Recoveries. Target effort level was 5.55 pace so pretty much 10k effort.

Are you supposed to maintain the same effort level throughout or should the effort get harder towards the end? By the 7th interval I was probably feeling controlled but somewhere near the effort of the middle/latter stages of a race. Should effort level drop back at this point or should I be pushing through?

Does this question even make sense? Haha

Coach is too soft on you in other words, i’d imagine they should feel tougher with the reduced recovery as they go along with the last few feeling like the latter stages of a race. My take on it anyway, your fitter than your telling him!!!

Swashbuckler

OOnegative wrote:

Coach is too soft on you in other words, i’d imagine they should feel tougher with the reduced recovery as they go along with the last few feeling like the latter stages of a race. My take on it anyway, your fitter than your telling him!!!

Haha I thought the opposite. Last couple felt like I would late in a race and I was worried that maybe I should be pulling it back to 5.55 effort if that makes sense

Swashbuckler

Plus I figure until I prove it in a race the numbers mean nothing haha

OOnegative

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Haha I thought the opposite. Last couple felt like I would late in a race and I was worried that maybe I should be pulling it back to 5.55 effort if that makes sense

As in you were running faster than 5.55 pace?
Well knowing L, if he said run them at 5.55 effort that’s what he would like you to do, if you were feeling better than 5.55 effort your in good shape. Well you are in good shape.

Swashbuckler

OOnegative wrote:

As in you were running faster than 5.55 pace? Well knowing L, if he said run them at 5.55 effort that’s what he would like you to do, if you were feeling better than 5.55 effort your in good shape. Well you are in good shape.

I didn't do a great job of explaining. For me 5.55 means 10k effort. So the first 4 or 5 felt like how a would early in a 10k race. Controlled. Effort level OK. Working but not overworking. By the last couple of reps I was working harder. Harder than I was earlier but keeping the same pace of 5.55.

So is it right to keep working harder for the last couple of reps. Or should the actual effort level drop back to what the first four or five reps felt like?

OOnegative

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I didn't do a great job of explaining. For me 5.55 means 10k effort. So the first 4 or 5 felt like how a would early in a 10k race. Controlled. Effort level OK. Working but not overworking. By the last couple of reps I was working harder. Harder than I was earlier but keeping the same pace of 5.55.

So is it right to keep working harder for the last couple of reps. Or should the actual effort level drop back to what the first four or five reps felt like?

I think as long as your maintaining the correct pace but working that bit harder it’s fine, your still achieving the desired effects of the session would be my interpretation of it.

skyblue46

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Plus I figure until I prove it in a race the numbers mean nothing haha

From what I have read the effort required should increase. I suppose the question is at what point are you putting in more effort to maintain that pace than is the intention of the session. Only coach can tell you that 😀

hot buttered scones

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Quick question for anyone who takes the time to read my ramblings.....

Specifically on sessions and effort level. I ran a 7x1k today with reducing Recoveries. Target effort level was 5.55 pace so pretty much 10k effort.

Are you supposed to maintain the same effort level throughout or should the effort get harder towards the end? By the 7th interval I was probably feeling controlled but somewhere near the effort of the middle/latter stages of a race. Should effort level drop back at this point or should I be pushing through?

Does this question even make sense? Haha

OOnegative wrote: »

I think as long as your maintaining the correct pace but working that bit harder it’s fine, your still achieving the desired effects of the session would be my interpretation of it.

Great question and one I often ask myself, and I also agree with OOnegative. My interpretation of these sessions, especially with the reducing recoveries is that each rep is supposed to be a bit harder than the last, sort of mimicking the fatigue you feel as you progress through a race - teaching you to run fast on tired legs.

At last I hope that's right, or else I've been doing all my sessions wrong...

Duanington

It'll be tougher - its meant to be, you'll work harder, like you would in the latter stages of a race but then you'll have the recovery to avoid stressing the system too much. While the first one will probably feel a lot more controlled than the last one, so would the first k in a 10k race ( compared to the last one)

I wouldn't overthink it P, in and around the prescribed pace is spot on. If you're flapping and gasping at the start of the last one ( like I was on Saturday) then something isn't right but you weren't even close to that from the sounds of things.

Swashbuckler

skyblue46 wrote:

From what I have read the effort required should increase. I suppose the question is at what point are you putting in more effort to maintain that pace than is the intention of the session. Only coach can tell you that 😀

hot buttered scones wrote:

Great question and one I often ask myself, and I also agree with OOnegative. My interpretation of these sessions, especially with the reducing recoveries is that each rep is supposed to be a bit harder than the last, sort of mimicking the fatigue you feel as you progress through a race - teaching you to run fast on tired legs.

Skyblue46 and HBS (and Oonegative) I think you're right. It's what I was thinking seeing the reducing Recoveries. Funny how some sessions you don't realise how you'll feel or even how you should feel until you're in the thick of it. And next week's session could be completely different. Haha

Duanington wrote:

I wouldn't overthink it P, in and around the prescribed pace is spot on. If you're flapping and gasping at the start of the last one ( like I was on Saturday) then something isn't right but you weren't even close to that from the sounds of things.

I wouldn't be me if I didn't over think it a bit haha. To be honest the last interval felt exactly how I'd feel towards the latter parts of a race so I guess my effort level was spot on.

OOnegative

Swashbuckler wrote: »

To be honest the last interval felt exactly how I'd feel towards the latter parts of a race so I guess my effort level was spot on.

That’s the bit that tells me you nailed the session spot on, that’s my take on it anyway. L will be along soon to give the correct answer no doubt.

Swashbuckler

So it turns out I did indeed nail the session.

Monday - 7M easy @ 8:05. I can't even remember this run! Seems to be the case as time goes on. Unless I get chased by a dog or the weather was doing something spectacular these easy runs don't really stand out.

Tuesday - 7 x 1k off reducing recoveries of 90/90/75/75/60/60. Targeting 5.55/mile.
Love this session. It's always one that builds my confidence. Felt strong. Tiring a bit on the last two.

Pace splits (miles):5:55, 5:55, 5:55, 5:52, 5:48, 5:58, 5:50
Pace splits (km):3:40, 3:41, 3:40, 3:39, 3:36, 3:43, 3:38

I had questioned if I should be tiring on the last couple or should I by reducing the effort level i.e. should I be running 5:55 pace or 5:55 effort. Spoke to coach and he reassured me that we have spent the last while getting me used to running the 10k pace and this session is designed to get me used to maintaining the pace with that hurting feeling later in a race. Its a sneaky little session. Love it.

Wednesday and Thursday - Easy 7M recovery runs at ~8:00/mile. Had to rush the one on Thursday a bit. Work has picked up a lot lately. Actually I think Thursday was 6.5 miles.

Friday - 10min/5min/10min/5min alternating 6:30/6:15 pace.
very strong again. I'm starting to repeat myself but this is a good solid run. These ones I probably find a little more difficult mentally as the concentration needs to be good. Once I settle into the pace I'm pretty comfortable maintaining this. For this one I tend to head out on to the roads to encorporate some real life undulations and drags.

Saturday - 14M Easy @ 7:58/mile
I said it on Strava but I wish I could bottle these days. Everything felt right. Felt fresh, happy, energised, enthusiastic. If only it always felt like this! Either way a good sign. Ran along the river back out to Ul and looped around and back into town. A lovely route. Had to zip in and out of some of the parade watchers. Lovely morning for a run. Really enjoyed it.

Total mileage for the week - 51.6 miles.

Stringing some good weeks together here. Hopefully it continues.

Ennis 10k on the 31st. Another good week planned ahead with the dreaded hills today!!!

Swashbuckler

Well that was a tough week of running!!!!!

Monday - the usual Easy 7M that I don't have any recollection of...I'm sure I enjoyed it....8min/mile average pace.

Tuesday - Session day and what a session. The one that scares the bejaysus out of me. I dread it and love it all in one. 14x45s Hill intervals with 90s recovery jog back down the hill. Focus on keeping form and driving the knees. Should get tougher as the session goes on so I'm really working for the last few. Funny that. I was really working after the first couple! (joke). I used the same hill as the 40s ones from a few weeks back but obviously ran for 5sec extra. I'm not sure how to describe this session. It's relentless. Fly up the hill. Take a couple of seconds to get the breath back. Jog back down and literally turn and go again. I really noticed the extra 5sec this time.
The only session that makes me (a). consider quitting and (b). think i may vomit at some stage. Neither happened.......yet.....The paces for the splits were as follows;

5.12/5.09/5.18/5.15/5.17/5.16/5.19/5.22/5.32/5.20/5.19/5.22/5.30/5.25

I can never tell if I'm going too fast but I see this session as a "go hard or go home" session. As long as I can maintain my form and my head/arms/upper body aren't flopping all over the shop then until told otherwise I think I'm ok. Tough as hell though. AMK did the same session last week and found it fine. These fecking Strava Superheroes making me feel bad about my struggles

Total mileage: 7.7 miles for the session.

Wednesday - Easy 7M at 8.02min/mile. I felt fine and the pace felt ok but as the week wore on I wondered should I be slowing down these post session runs. Hard to tell. Easy felt easy but how easy?

Thursday - Easy 7M at 8.04min/mile. Just to add, I rarely talk about my routes in my log as they are rarely interesting. There are only so many directions you can run to when you do most of your runs at work from an Industrial Estate.

Friday - Session No.2 for the week. Had a crap nights sleep Thursday night. Baby woke...a lot.......In hindsight I don't think the week really accumulated on me until Saturday but more on that later. Planned session (3x3mins @ 6min/mile) + 8mins @ 6.15min/mile + (3x3mins @ 6min/mile) Off 90s. Firstly I made a balls of programming this as I found out in the middle of the run. Adjustments were made and some recovery parts were run and some run parts were recovery but by the end I "almost" ran exactly what was prescribed. I think I ran an extra minute on the 8 and took a 60s recovery on one instead of 90s on one of the 3's.
Anyway, the session itself went well. Mentally the third 3min of the first set and first 3min of the second set were toughest. Physically, honestly all were fine. 6min pace is starting to feel easier (at least for 3mins it is). The 8min block wasnt difficult. "Slowing" to 6.15 actually feels mentally easier. All in all the session went well. Felt strong but a little tired from the week.

Total mileage: 9 miles.

Saturday - "Easy" 14M. This was the run that surprised me from the week. I didn't get out til later in the day than usual - around 2pm. I'm not sure what to say about this one. I started off as I normally do and just let the pace feel easy. Check the watch every now and then and its within my easy range. All good. If I feel the need to slow down on these runs I will, but I didn't. At around 6 miles I started to feel it a bit. Never felt this way this early into my longer run. By mile 8 and 9 I was having to work pretty hard. The legs just felt dead and heavy. Breathing and heart rate felt ok but the legs just felt so heavy. Miles 10 and 11 and I couldn't wait for home. Miles 12 and 13 and I'd have taken a lift home if somebody offered. By mile 14 I was almost home so the worst had passed. Got in home I just lay on the floor for 5mins. Weird. Maybe it was the lack of sleep during the week. Maybe it was the hard block of training behind me. Maybe its both. Hopefully it's temporary because everything is going so well. And I love those long runs. So I spoke to coach and we have the plan for the week. I'll monitor how I am and give feedback.
Of course it being race week added an extra sense of dread. Now is not the time I want to be struggling. But let's see how the week goes. So as I said, race week! Ennis 10k on Saturday. Its a PB friendly course. Weather looks ok so far. It really is a race I'd like to attack. I ran 40:28 there last year and it was the race that made me think sub 40 wasn't far off. Hopefully I recover well this week.

Total mileage for last week: 51.6 miles. Let the "taper" madness commence.

Swashbuckler

Monday - Easy 7M at 8.17min/mile.
What I'd call a cautious run with all focus on the legs. Didn't feel great to be honest. The calves felt tight and sore which was the hangover from Saturdays oddly tiring 14 miler. Concerned but hopeful.

Tuesday - (3x1200 at 6min/mile) + (4x600 at 5.45min/mile) off 2mins.
Given how the legs were on Monday this was about as concerned as I've been going into a session. Took it easy on the warmup still monitoring the legs. Definitely a bit better. Better enough to attempt this session anyway. First two 1200's and I was pretty frustrated. Frustrated I had possibly fecked my chances at a good crack at Ennis during that 14 miler. Hard to be too hard on myself though because I've run similar runs to that plenty of times and felt nowhere near as bad. Then the legs started to warm into it. By the end I was feeling pretty good believe it or not. Nowhere near 100% and not as strong as usual on these sessions but room for optimism.
Splits were 5.58, 5.58 and 5.55 for the 1200's.
Splits were 5.37, 5.43, 5.41, 5.39 for the 600's.

Wednesday - Easy 6M at 8.22min/mile.
Very cautious and taking it easy. Legs not too bad but still nowhere near where I'd like them to be.

Thursday - Easy 6M at 8.20min/mile plus some strides which messed the average making it 8.05 or something like that. Much more optimistic after today's run. Much better (I think).
Funnily enough I usually question my default average easy pace of 8min/mile but there was no worries this week. I slowed right down.

Plan to do a 20min shakeout very slow tomorrow and then on to Ennis 10k Saturday morning.

At the beginning of the year Ennis was very much at the forefront of my mind. It was all about Ennis as the target race. Thankfully my mindset has changed with more long term goals than specific pressure on a single race. That being said, I'm not going to make any excuses and complain that my legs have been tired all week. I plan on going there and really having a crack at this race. I feel like all going well I could do something a little special (special by my standards haha). So I'll throw it out there (no sandbagging like HBS ) I'm hoping to crack sub 37. I know I'm in the shape to do it. Whether the legs play ball is another thing but unless coach advises me otherwise I really think I can have a crack at this one. Let's see i guess. I've thrown this up there to help with motivation. Believe it or not it does help me during a race to think about some of the race reportsfrom people on here and the efforts people have put into races so by throwing my goal up here it will hopefully help when those negative thoughts kick in. So the plan is (without checking with coach haha) to settle into it early and keep it nice and strong and then see what I have to give in the second half of the race. Let's do this!

skyblue46

Good man yourself. I have to admit to having taken great encouragement from reading the approach to racing that your group have. It has given this aul fella the impetus to start giving it everything even if it's a minute a mile slower than you. A super attitude you have. Keep it going!

Swashbuckler

skyblue46 wrote:

Good man yourself. I have to admit to having taken great encouragement from reading the approach to racing that your group have. It has given this aul fella the impetus to start giving it everything even if it's a minute a mile slower than you. A super attitude you have. Keep it going!

Cheers skyblue. And don't doubt for one second just because you run slower that you're not motivation. Yourself and arianas recent race reports spurred me on...this forum is a great place for finding motivation and inspiration.

OOnegative

Way your going no reason not to target sub 37, your in good shape, DFIU!!