Croke park tickets, entering and leaving

Fattes

17togo wrote: »

All residents living in the cordoned off areas are issued with resident passes. So if someone is genuinely visiting a friend they would have to meet them at the cordon with a pass. If not it'll depend what mood the steward or garda are in if they believe your story.

And it is legal to be asked for a ticket on the roads entering Croke Park. On events such as this under section 21 of the public order act an area around the stadium can be cordoned off and entry regulated. So I would not recommend telling the they have no right to ask you for a ticket!

Section 21.2 "Where a barrier has been erected in accordance with subsection (1), a member of the Garda Síochána in uniform"

Section 21.3 "(3) A member of the Garda Síochána shall not prohibit a person from crossing or passing a barrier erected under this section save for the purpose of diverting the person to another means of access to the event, if it appears to the member that the person is seeking to do so for the purpose only of—

(a) going to his dwelling or place of business or work in the vicinity of the event, or

(B)going for any other lawful purpose to any place in the vicinity of the event other than the place where the event is taking place or is about to take place."

Simply put only a member of the Gardai can ask you to present your ticket the stewards have no right to do so. Secondly a Garda can not deny you access if you have a lawful purpose to be in the vacinity, that would include going to a public house, hotel or other business.

The Gardai never step in well once with me in 15 years and I never show my ticket the once a Garda stepped in was to tell a steward to take his hands off me after he grabbed me. Garda asked did I have a ticket I said yes he waved me through, didn't ask to see it.

Bag searches are volunteery technically, you could request a Garda does the search if you wanted to be really fussy. But to be honest in the current climate it is a pretty reasonable and sensible request

siobhan1983

Is it true that if you have cusack stand tickets you will be not left down the road to jurys before the game? Apparently this happened last weekend. We had no issue for semi final. Supposed to be meeting family there but I'm in the cusack

Fattes

siobhan1983 wrote: »

Is it true that if you have cusack stand tickets you will be not left down the road to jurys before the game? Apparently this happened last weekend. We had no issue for semi final. Supposed to be meeting family there but I'm in the cusack

See above ultimately you can not be denied access to any public street of you have lawful business.

In fairness to the GAA/Gardai Joneses road has been a big problem when CP is full, to many people in a confined space personally if I didn't need to be down there I would avoid it on March day

Fr Tod Umptious

siobhan1983 wrote: »

Is it true that if you have cusack stand tickets you will be not left down the road to jurys before the game? Apparently this happened last weekend. We had no issue for semi final. Supposed to be meeting family there but I'm in the cusack

In theory yes they will tell you to take the "correct" route to the Cusack, but talk to them and they might let you through.

andrew1977

siobhan1983 wrote: »

Is it true that if you have cusack stand tickets you will be not left down the road to jurys before the game? Apparently this happened last weekend. We had no issue for semi final. Supposed to be meeting family there but I'm in the cusack

Tell them your going to the elverys store or meeting somebody at the hotel and they will let you through.
Done it a few times myself no hassle when I often had to meet somebody at the hotel or at elverys to collect tickets.

17togo

Fattes wrote:

See above ultimately you can not be denied access to any public street of you have lawful business.

But you can, lawful business doesn't include going to a pub for a pint cos you like it there, or arranging to meet people at a specific location. Croke Park Hotel falls into this category. Telling a guard that you can't be stopped heading down the street would result in you being stopped heading down that street, unless you have a ticket of course, or explained the situation to them. You probably will be let through if you explain the scenario but I wouldn't try demanding it.
You can also be diverted to a specific entrance for the ticket you hold.

Google Section 21 of the public order act (I would copy and paste it here myself, but every time I leave this page I lose whatever I've already typed)

Greybottle

Forget the Croke Park Hotel idea. It can take 30 mins to get in there on match day as they only let people in when one is going out. And they've heard every excuse under the sun.

If you want to drop the ticket somewhere I'd recommend Mayes Pub on the corner of Frederick St Nth and Dorset St. It's a traditional Roscommon pub and they'll be supporting Galway on the day. I've left tickets there before and the price of a pint for the barman. Print your name ane and phone number on it so they can check it's you.

siobhan1983

Ok will try sweet talk my way through and see how I get on. Really want to be with my family before hand. We got in no problem for the cork match so hoping we will be ok for tomorrow.

Fattes

17togo wrote: »

But you can, lawful business doesn't include going to a pub for a pint cos you like it there, or arranging to meet people at a specific location. Croke Park Hotel falls into this category. Telling a guard that you can't be stopped heading down the street would result in you being stopped heading down that street, unless you have a ticket of course, or explained the situation to them. You probably will be let through if you explain the scenario but I wouldn't try demanding it.
You can also be diverted to a specific entrance for the ticket you hold.

Google Section 21 of the public order act (I would copy and paste it here myself, but every time I leave this page I lose whatever I've already typed)

I posted it above already about 6 posts back including section 2 &3
Going to a pub to meet someone is lawful business! I never said you demand anything of the Gardai I did point out you have no legal obligation to engage with a steward attempting to block a public street. Simply explaining to a guard that you require access to point x for purpose y will be enough. Of the Garda deny you, they are in breach of the public order act themselves unless your request for access is not for lawful or meaningful purpose .

17togo

Fattes wrote:

I posted it above already about 6 posts back including section 2 &3 Going to a pub to meet someone is lawful business! I never said you demand anything of the Gardai I did point out you have no legal obligation to engage with a steward attempting to block a public street. Simply explaining to a guard that you require access to point x for purpose y will be enough. Of the Garda deny you, they are in breach of the public order act themselves unless your request for access is not for lawful or meaningful purpose .

I've a feeling we're going to have agree to disagree on this one. IMO going for a pint in a pub that's inside a cordon without a ticket doesn't constitute lawful business.
And I didn't mean you demanded anything I was just elaborating on your point when you said you can't be stopped if you have lawful business.

Fattes

17togo wrote: »

I've a feeling we're going to have agree to disagree on this one. IMO going for a pint in a pub that's inside a cordon without a ticket doesn't constitute lawful business.
And I didn't mean you demanded anything I was just elaborating on your point when you said you can't be stopped if you have lawful business.

Act is below, lawful business includes any activity that would be protected via the constitution or legislation. It is legal to arrange to meet people at a public place of your choosing, ergo under 21.3 the phrase that is most important is a "Garda Síochana shall not prohibit"

The legislation specifically designates circumstances where the Garda can not impede you crossing a barrier erected under the relevant section of the act. You may wish to disagree. It the interpretation is well tested and the Gardai will rarely stop someone with a genuine reason around Croke park

Section 21.3 "(3) A member of the Garda Síochána shall not prohibit a person from crossing or passing a barrier erected under this section save for the purpose of diverting the person to another means of access to the event, if it appears to the member that the person is seeking to do so for the purpose only of—

(a) going to his dwelling or place of business or work in the vicinity of the event, or

(B)going for any other lawful purpose to any place in the vicinity of the event other than the place where the event is taking place or is about to take place."

Simply put only a member of the Gardai can ask you to present your ticket the stewards have no right to do so. Secondly a Garda can not deny you access if you have a lawful purpose to be in the vacinity, that would include going to a public house, hotel or other business.

The Gardai never step in well once with me in 15 years and I never show my ticket the once a Garda stepped in was to tell a steward to take his hands off me after he grabbed me. Garda asked did I have a ticket I said yes he waved me through, didn't ask to see it.

Bag searches are volunteery technically, you could request a Garda does the search if you wanted to be really fussy. But to be honest in the current climate it is a pretty reasonable and sensible request

dxhound2005

Fattes wrote: »

Bag searches are volunteery technically, you could request a Garda does the search if you wanted to be really fussy. But to be honest in the current climate it is a pretty reasonable and sensible request

I don't see any function for the Gardai in bag searches. Someone buying a ticket to attend a venue is partaking in a commercial transaction subject to contract law. If the ticket seller sets a condition that excludes certain items being brought in or certain types of bags for example, then they would have the right to deny admission to anyone refusing to abide by those conditions. Someone doing that would not be breaking any law, so why would the Gardai have to be involved?

I fail to see the logic for your objection to stewards checking tickets when you are so relaxed about having your private property examined. But you are correct that legally they have no right to do so on the public highway.

Fattes

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I don't see any function for the Gardai in bag searches. Someone buying a ticket to attend a venue is partaking in a commercial transaction subject to contract law. If the ticket seller sets a condition that excludes certain items being brought in or certain types of bags for example, then they would have the right to deny admission to anyone refusing to abide by those conditions. Someone doing that would not be breaking any law, so why would the Gardai have to be involved?

I fail to see the logic for your objection to stewards checking tickets when you are so relaxed about having your private property examined. But you are correct that legally they have no right to do so on the public highway.

Under Irish law only the Gardai can perform personal searches, unless the person consents to a civilian performing the search. There is a reason there is a Garda stationed beside every search station at concerts and now at CP. The searches performed by civilians would not be upheld under any law. Amazingly even the Gardai powers of search without consent are limited without reasonable suspicion that you have committed an offence.

I never bring a bag to Croke park, but in light of recent events in Europe and having witnessed the searches at CP they are not a big deal, also you are asked can they check your bag, and you can request a Garda search.

As for being stopped bye a steward, they have no right to stop or question you. It's a much bigger issue on a public street than a request for a cursory glance inside a bag at the entrance to a venue

dxhound2005

What about car drivers? Have they not got the same right to proceed to any destination they wish, just like a pedestrian? What is the legal basis for the barriers where the stewards are stationed being set up on the public highway hundreds of yards away from the venue?

I was at the Dublin Tyrone game and the examination of my bag was certainly cursory. And no examination of the coat folded over my arm was requested. It had a bottle of water in the pocket, but that could have easily been a gun or a grenade.

For me it is a bigger intrusion to be asked to show what I am carrying compared to being asked to show my ticket.

Fattes

dxhound2005 wrote: »

What about car drivers? Have they not got the same right to proceed to any destination they wish, just like a pedestrian? What is the legal basis for the barriers where the stewards are stationed being set up on the public highway hundreds of yards away from the venue?

The legal basis is section 21 Public order act. It is a number of subsections 2 & 3 in particular that allow right of access and subject the Gardai to restrictions on denial of access.

Yep cars drivers have the same rights. However if the Gardai can provide an alternative route they must take it so using roads for through access just isn't going to happen.

StupidLikeAFox

Get your friend to meet you in athlone tonight, 2 hr round trip for you both. It will save you the price of a solicitor to explain all this legal stuff to the stewards tomorrow too

Fattes

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

Get your friend to meet you in athlone tonight, 2 hr round trip for you both. It will save you the price of a solicitor to explain all this legal stuff to the stewards tomorrow too

Stewards won't argue with you, if they refuse you, simoly ask to speak to the Garda standing behind them, they will let you through simple really

Fr Tod Umptious

OP and the other poster who wants to get down Jones Rd with a Cusack ticket.

Let us know how ye get on please.

Realt Dearg Sec

I've always been fine going down Jones road to meet family in the hotel the day of the final even though my ticket was always for the Cusack. I always just say I'm meeting family or collecting a ticket (the truth), I'm sure as long as you're polite about it that's no problem.

obi604

OP here. Got sorted. Friend will leave ticket in Neighbours house, so will just leg it there before match.

Realt Dearg Sec

obi604 wrote: »

OP here. Got sorted. Friend will leave ticket in Neighbours house, so will just leg it there before match.

Good call. No point making any "hope this method works out" plans, could destroy your day.

bruschi

17togo wrote: »

All residents living in the cordoned off areas are issued with resident passes. So if someone is genuinely visiting a friend they would have to meet them at the cordon with a pass. If not it'll depend what mood the steward or garda are in if they believe your story.

And it is legal to be asked for a ticket on the roads entering Croke Park. On events such as this under section 21 of the public order act an area around the stadium can be cordoned off and entry regulated. So I would not recommend telling the they have no right to ask you for a ticket!

Unless this has changed in the last 2 years, this is incorrect. I've have 2 different friends live with the cordoned off area, one in a house down the hill 16 entrance and the other an apartment on Jones road. Neither ever got passes for being residents. They could apply for car passes if needed. 2 years ago I watched the first half of the minor game in the Jones road apartment and had a cusack ticket. Stewards had no issues at all letting me thru. I've never heard of it being an issue, particularly the Jones road barriers.

fullstop

17togo wrote: »

All residents living in the cordoned off areas are issued with resident passes. So if someone is genuinely visiting a friend they would have to meet them at the cordon with a pass. If not it'll depend what mood the steward or garda are in if they believe your story.

Nope, this is only the case if you want to park on one of the streets, they have to give your registration and their pass in advance but it's never a problem walking in past the cordon without a ticket. I've done it many times as I have family living on one of those streets.

_Dara_

17togo wrote: »

All residents living in the cordoned off areas are issued with resident passes. So if someone is genuinely visiting a friend they would have to meet them at the cordon with a pass. If not it'll depend what mood the steward or garda are in if they believe your story.

That must be a new thing. I lived on Jone's Road for a year in 04/05, literally two houses away from Croker's main entrance, and another road just off it the year before and we were never given resident's passes. We just would tell them where we lived and we were let through.

blanch152

Fattes wrote: »

See above ultimately you can not be denied access to any public street of you have lawful business.

You are reading this wrong. Here is what you posted:

Fattes wrote: »

Section 21.2 "Where a barrier has been erected in accordance with subsection (1), a member of the Garda Síochána in uniform"

Section 21.3 "(3) A member of the Garda Síochána shall not prohibit a person from crossing or passing a barrier erected under this section save for the purpose of diverting the person to another means of access to the event, if it appears to the member that the person is seeking to do so for the purpose only of—

(a) going to his dwelling or place of business or work in the vicinity of the event, or

(B)going for any other lawful purpose to any place in the vicinity of the event other than the place where the event is taking place or is about to take place."

t

The opinion of the Garda is paramount. A Garda cannot stop you if it appears to him that you are going for any lawful purpose. So if a Garda stops you and you shout about your rights, he may conclude that you are not going past the barrier for a lawful purpose, as he is fully entitled to do.

blanch152

Fattes wrote: »

Under Irish law only the Gardai can perform personal searches, unless the person consents to a civilian performing the search. There is a reason there is a Garda stationed beside every search station at concerts and now at CP. The searches performed by civilians would not be upheld under any law. Amazingly even the Gardai powers of search without consent are limited without reasonable suspicion that you have committed an offence.

I never bring a bag to Croke park, but in light of recent events in Europe and having witnessed the searches at CP they are not a big deal, also you are asked can they check your bag, and you can request a Garda search.

As for being stopped bye a steward, they have no right to stop or question you. It's a much bigger issue on a public street than a request for a cursory glance inside a bag at the entrance to a venue

Again this isn't true.

Yes, only a Garda can stop and search someone on the street. However, the organisers of any event have the right to refuse admission. This right to refuse admission can be because you haven't bought a ticket (obviously a simple enough reason to refuse someone entry to Croke Park) or it can be because you are in possession of certain items (flares, weapons, flagpoles) or it can be because you have refused to have your bag searched. No need for any Garda, a steward can refuse entry. Now if you want to stand on your high horse and tell the steward he can't search your bag, prepare for him to stand on his and tell you to go home.

So technically you are correct, the stewards outside Croke Park have no right to search your bag, however, they do have the right to refuse you entry unless you agree to have your bag searched.

mikemac2

17togo wrote: »

All residents living in the cordoned off areas are issued with resident passes. So if someone is genuinely visiting a friend they would have to meet them at the cordon with a pass. If not it'll depend what mood the steward or garda are in if they believe your story.

Ah it was never that strict. Lived on Clonliffe Rd two years and if you have a pass just say the address to the Garda. Ignore the stewards, it's the Garda you deal with. Like I didn't carry my pass out jogging or a Sunday morning cycle, never an issue. Might be told to get off and push my bike but fair enough if the road is busy

_Dara_ wrote: »

That must be a new thing. I lived on Jone's Road for a year in 04/05, literally two houses away from Croker's main entrance, and another road just off it the year before and we were never given resident's passes.

Nobody issues you with passes, you had to do the legwork yourself Take a bill and some ID up to Fitzgibbon St Garda station and you'd be sorted in two minutes.

I don't believe that station is open anymore, not sure

_Dara_

mikemac2 wrote: »

Nobody issues you with passes, you had to do the legwork yourself Take a bill and some ID up to Fitzgibbon St Garda station and you'd be sorted in two minutes.

I don't believe that station is open anymore, not sure

Yes, but my point was, I never needed one! When I went to the barriers, I just told them where I lived and with no proof asked for, I was let through with no hassle. I thought that was implied in my post.