Huge gun problem and dealer not doing anything about it

dodderangler

Havint posted in a while.
As many of you may know I have had a problem with my .223 since day one.
It is now at the stage where gun shop has had it several months now and is refusing to fix it. The excuses are ridiculous. Apparently there is no one to fix it. He says he has to send it off but that I have to pay for it all which by consumers rights I do not. This is the 3rd time in 2 years it's been back. He has also gotten quite threatening towards me on this.
I just want my gun fixed or at least replaced with a gun of same calibre and value.
He also said he sent it to a gunsmith but I got no written report on what is wrong. He basically just said the bolt is ****ed. The bolt was the problem both times he got it "fixed" before.
I am now going to go with legal action. To which he basically laughed at me about.
Any suggestions on what to do from here or just go ahead with legal action. I'd rather not tbh because it'll take months. I just want a replacement or my gun fixed and I know talking to several gun dealers and people here who are well informed that he has to fix it at his cost.

Senna

small claims court, think its €25 and its worthwhile for a case like yours where the fault is has been admitted "bolt is broken" but the seller will not resolve the issue.
It may take time, but the first letter that a claim has been submitted might be the kick the seller needs to just replace your gun with a new one.

gunny123

Jebus dodder I have never heard of a rifle bolt being knackered. What's the problem ? Did you buy the rifle new or used ?

dodderangler

gunny123 wrote: »

Jebus dodder I have never heard of a rifle bolt being knackered. What's the problem ? Did you buy the rifle new or used ?

Bought second hand but told only 300 rounds went into it. It belonged to the dealer himself.
I actually don't know what's wrong. It wouldn't recycle bullets and then firing pin stopped. Then was told it needs a new bolt.

dodderangler

Senna wrote: »

small claims court, think its €25 and its worthwhile for a case like yours where the fault is has been admitted "bolt is broken" but the seller will not resolve the issue.
It may take time, but the first letter that a claim has been submitted might be the kick the seller needs to just replace your gun with a new one.

That's what I'm hoping but he says he'll gladly go to court.

Walter Mittys Brother

First thing you need to do is get your rifle back & take it to a gunsmith and ask him to write a report on it for you.

Present the report to the dealer you bought it from.

Is the gun still under manufacturer warranty?

What warranty did the dealer give you?

Document all the dealings with the dealer.

Consult a solicitor? May cost more than the rifle is worth

Small claims court may be cheapest & easiest option?

Grizzly 45

dodderangler wrote: »

Bought second hand but told only 300 rounds went into it. It belonged to the dealer himself.
.

WHOOP!! WHOOP!! WHOOP!!There goes the alarm klaxon!! A dealer that sells his own rifle and then refuses to retake it s a trade in or fix it??? 300 rounds and the bolt is buggered.Sounds like this guy was shooting some very hot loads out of it or the bolt head spacing was wrong or not heat treated properly from the word go. It sounds like he knowingly sold you a bill of defective goods as well..If that is/was the case he won't have a leg to stand on.Cevat Emptor[let the buyer beware] will not apply either unless he pointed out the faults to you and you accepted them when you laid the money down.IOW did you test fire the rifle before you bought it and it worked ok?Are you a layman?not a gun smith so you have to expect the rifle to keep working.
TBH,get it back.Get a professionally accredited gunsmith here to look it over and give you a written report on the fault.Then maybe a solrs letter, should cost no more than a ton shop around and get some new guy hungry for business.To write to this dealer and take it from there.Small claims court, I don't think covers stuff over 500 euros value, so you might indeed be looking at legal counsel anyway.Even if he does refuse to honor the court finding ,you can still have a judgment outstanding registered against him or the company and everyone can read about in Stubbs Gazette.Which is none too helpful for credit or loans in the future.
Another case for dealers and gunsmiths to be two separate entities and one a certified trade here.

Grizzly 45

dodderangler wrote: »

That's what I'm hoping but he says he'll gladly go to court.

He is an idiot! and an idiot who has never heard the saying the customer is king or that a happy customer tells ten people an unhappy one tells a hundred!

Pkiernan

Small Claims court...up to 2000 euro. Covers individuals who have bought from a business.


http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/courts_system/small_claims_court.html

minktrapper

I asked you before can you cock the bolt out of the rifle.

minktrapper

This is from an old thread.

I had some trouble with the bolt getting stiff.It became so stiff that i could hardly open it after firing a shot.I contacted a gunsmith and he told me to take it apart and polish it with sandpaper.from 300 grade down to 2000 grade.Its cheap to buy so off i went and got it.I opened my bolt,there was some dirt in it but not too much and polished it and reasembled it.And it was still very stiff.When i cycled it in the gun I could hear a sqeak coming from it.It took me ages to figure out where it was coming from.It was coming from the gap between where the bolt handle piece met the bolt.So if you placed the bolt in front of you with the handle on the bottom right about half ways along the bolt where the bolt handle piece meets the bolt I put a drop of oil and when I say a drop I mean a drop.Never put any oil into the bolt.And low and behold you wouldn't believe the difference it made.It completely changed it,it was like new again.

minktrapper

From what I remember John Galway had the exact same problem.

juice1304

i wouldnt go to the bolt with sandpaper... polish the wrong area for too long like the lugs and you could make the problem worse.
it sound like a problem due to extreme excessive pressure as in amateur reloads or there is a problem with excessive headspace etc.. It could also be something very simple.
I would take him to court that kind of messing is not on.

wirehairmax

What county is this dealer located? I know a very good riflesmith but he's not in dublin

gunny123

The bolt of a rifle is supposed to be slightly harder than the action body to prevent seizing and galling (This is common in a lot of engineering). If the bolt was case hardened and someone sanded through the hard case through to the soft steel beneath, than the steel of the bolt and action body smear together, especially under pressure and would make the bolt difficult to open.

A friend who used to operate a gunshop showed me a brand new Savage .22 bolt action one day. He asked me what i thought of it. The bolt was extremely difficult to operate and was like pulling a spoon through treacle. I reckoned the bolt was soft.

Luckysasha

Name and shame the guy. Surprising how quick he will change his tune once word gets out about the way you have been treated

Chiparus

Luckysasha wrote: »

Name and shame the guy. Surprising how quick he will change his tune once word gets out about the way you have been treated

Not a good idea.

Luckysasha

Why not. Should this guy be allowed get away with the hassle he has put the OP through. I for one would like to know who this guy is so I don't part with any of my hard earned cash in his shop. I wouldn't buy a box of cartridges off him after his carry on

gunny123

Two sides to every story, not that I doubt dodders version of events.

dodderangler

Luckysasha wrote: »

Name and shame the guy. Surprising how quick he will change his tune once word gets out about the way you have been treated

I have already informed the mods here that I won't be naming this rfd.

dodderangler

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

He is an idiot! and an idiot who has never heard the saying the customer is king or that a happy customer tells ten people an unhappy one tells a hundred!

This guy doesn't seem to want to give a shît about his customers at all. I've heard from other people how he treats his customers. Now I know. He's kinda dodged me on this since day one. He told me I had two year warranty on the gun yet when it broke a second time he told me he didn't give me that long warranty on it. He's lied his hole way through. Not a professional and not a gunsmith. If you know if a good gunsmith could you pm me please. I'd love to take it to one. Thanks mate

gunny123

What county is this dealer operating from ?

dodderangler

gunny123 wrote: »

What county is this dealer operating from ?

I can't say. I told the mods I wouldn't when I asked if I could start the thread.

Cass

Luckysasha wrote: »

Name and shame the guy. Surprising how quick he will change his tune once word gets out about the way you have been treated

Not being a dick, but i never understood that saying.

I'd rather someone gave an honest opinion and if the person or business they are discussing wants to reply they can do so. Its up to people after that as to whom they choose to believe.

Chiparus wrote: »

Not a good idea.

gunny123 wrote: »

Two sides to every story, not that I doubt dodders version of events.

Dodder done the right thing and ran this past the Mods before posting and we told him the forum is about all discussion and reviews. That means positive and negative. I know some forums don't allow criticism because those running it have financial or business interests so do not allow negative discussion of certain businesses or brands. We have no such issues/loyalties. If the dealer wishes he come on here and give his side or not.

The Mods will monitor all such threads for any "over the line" comments, but other than that is' fair game.

dodderangler wrote: »

If you know if a good gunsmith could you pm me please. I'd love to take it to one. Thanks mate

I think, and its only my opinion, that this is a terrible idea.

Even the dealer sending it to a gunsmith was the wrong thing to do. The rifle should go back to the manufacturer. Any work carried out by anyone other than the manufacturer will void any warranty.

Grizzly 45

dodderangler wrote: »

This guy doesn't seem to want to give a shît about his customers at all.

Tried to send you a PM...You need to empty the ol inbox of your mails .:D

rsole1

dodderangler wrote: »

I have already informed the mods here that I won't be naming this rfd.

Get a spine and name him.

gunny123

rsole1 wrote: »

Get a spine and name him.

The name will be deleted and the thread locked, so a pointless request. I know two dealers that fit the description, which is why i asked what county the "dealer" is in. One has all the charm and grace of a rabid sewer rat, and if i were forced to use him, would pack in shooting immediately. I fully expect that he's the guy.

minktrapper

Was it working properly when you bought it.

dodderangler

minktrapper wrote: »

Was it working properly when you bought it.

Was ok for a week and the bullets he gave me jammed in it. Cheap Russian Shiite. It's been dodgy since day one. My threads can confirm it.

gavindublin

Where you bought it, and who they are now are different. So the old one doesn't exist to feel the Wrath Of The Mod God's 😂😂

minktrapper

dodderangler wrote: »

Was ok for a week and the bullets he gave me jammed in it. Cheap Russian Shiite. It's been dodgy since day one. My threads can confirm it.

How many shots did you fire before the bolt started giving problems. Just because the bullets are jamming in it does not mean it's a problem with the bolt.

Was it feeding problems or extraction problems.

Grizzly 45

Also, did you try some different ammo?There are some guns that will not, just not, work properly with steel cases.As well what brand of gun is this?

minktrapper

dodderangler wrote: »

Was ok for a week and the bullets he gave me jammed in it. Cheap Russian Shiite. It's been dodgy since day one. My threads can confirm it.

If was functioning properly for a week what happened in that space of time that it started to malfunction.

gunny123

Sounds like a rough or ringed chamber to me, that leads to extraction problems as the case grips the chamber walls and cannot be freed. Has the rifle been rebarrelled or rechambered ?

Cass

minktrapper wrote: »

Just because the bullets are jamming in it does not mean it's a problem with the bolt..

In his opening post he says the gunsmith the RFD sent the rifle to claimed the bolt was fecked. So it's not just the RFD saying this, its whatever gunsmith he used.

dodderangler wrote: »

He also said he sent it to a gunsmith but I got no written report on what is wrong. He basically just said the bolt is ****ed. The bolt was the problem both times he got it "fixed" before.

Regardless of the ammo ran through the gun or what the fault is the issue lies with the RFD not honoring a sales contract or the 1980 consumer rights.

The rifle should never have been sent to a "gunsmith". It should have been returned to the manufacturer as any outside work will void any warranty.

The RFD, according to the description by Dodder, has done everything wrong. A common problem i've seen umpteen times with Irish businesses. They don't understand the legal responsibilities and the "sure it'll be grand" attitude is all fine and well until something goes wrong.

i've been in a similar situation and the RFD tried a similar line of bullsh*t, but that was quickly snuffed out. The problem is we're always at the mercy of the RFD. We need them fro returns, warranty, shipping, repairs, etc. They like to take money, but don't want to know you after the sale.

Nekarsulm

dodderangler wrote: »

Was ok for a week and the bullets he gave me jammed in it. Cheap Russian Shiite. It's been dodgy since day one. My threads can confirm it.

Have you any of that Russian ammo, or the boxes it came in?

minktrapper

The gunsmith could be wrong.

BattleCorp

Cass wrote: »

The rifle should never have been sent to a "gunsmith". It should have been returned to the manufacturer as any outside work will void any warranty.

I'm certainly not a legal head so take what I'm saying with a pinch of salt. These are just my thoughts.

Would there be a manufacturer warranty on the gun, seeing as the gun is second hand?

There would have been an original warranty between the manufacturer and whoever first bought the gun. I don't think this warranty is transferrable once the goods are sold on. I think the shop owner claimed that he used the gun himself. Once the shop owner used the gun himself, the warranty contract would be between the manufacturer and the shop owner.

And even if there is a warranty and it is transferrable, I'm sure it would be time related (2 year warranty for example). How old is the gun? When was it first sold by the manufacturer? These are all import questions that determine if the manufacturer has any responsibility to fix the problem.

Cass

BattleCorp wrote: »

Would there be a manufacturer warranty on the gun, seeing as the gun is second hand?

I'm in the same boat as yourself regarding consumer law, and as i said to Dodder a few times anything i say is my opinion.

However all goods sold come with some sort of warranty. How many times have you seen a sale and the store will tell you there is no warranty on sale goods. It's tosh.

Now who is liable for that warranty, i don't know. If there was an existing fault with the rifle then the RFD could have the manufacturer validate the warranty. If not then there is still, not a warranty, but a responsibility on the RFD to sell goods of sellable and suitable condition. Maybe not a warranty in legal terms, but still a legal responsibility according to the 1980 consumer act.

My comments about having a third party examine the gun are related to the fact that if any warranty exists it'll be voided by the use of a third party and not the manufacturer. Look at Remington. They sell an aftermarket trigger for their rifle, but on the fine print it says if it's installed by anyone other than a Remington agent then the entire rifle's warranty is void. So you buy their rifle, their new trigger and install it yourself (which frankly a blindfolded chimp could do) and now you have no warranty.

Grizzly 45

ASFIK, buying 2nd hand from a vendor still gives you a six-month warranty.
https://www.ccpc.ie/consumers/shopping/buying-goods/buying-second-hand-goods/

uying second-hand goods

When you buy a second-hand item from someone in business, you have similar rights to when you buy a new item. However, your rights very much depend on how much you paid for the item.

Any item you buy, including a second-hand item, must be fit for the purpose it has been sold for. It must also be as described to you, and the quality must be of an expected level, given the price you paid.

However you cannot expect second-hand goods to be of the same standard as new products.

Second-hand goods are “sold as seen”, so there may be some fault, imperfection or wear and tear. You need to examine the item carefully and ask the seller to point out any damage or imperfections. Make sure the item does what it is expected to do. For example, if it is a second-hand television set, check that the picture and sound are working correctly, the reception is clear and the remote control works as it should.

For some items, for example, jewellery or antique furniture, you should get an expert opinion before you decide to buy. With second-hand cars, you should follow our checklist on how to check out a car.

If the item turns out to be faulty, you have the right to return it to the business you bought it from and ask for a replacement, a repair or a refund.[/I] So Dodder is in the legal clear there, unless he had an expert gunsmith along for a 2nd opinion]

Warranty would usually be 12/24 months.And is transferable, ASFIK from the original buyer to other buyers within the time period of the warranty.

BUT the elephant in the room is, why won't the dealer repair or replace?Even if it was his personal gun, he could have sent it back for replacement/repair under either damaged stock and /or customer repair?I THEORISE he[dealer] did something to utterly invalidate the warranty, and/or let his local "Mikey Joes Engineering& gunsmith works." [ Barrel threading and cattle crushes a speciality!: eek:] have a crack at fixing it.

robertpatterson

Is this the 223 that you were putting 5.56 up the spout?
I know some rifles that handle both but some wont .

dodderangler

minktrapper wrote: »

If was functioning properly for a week what happened in that space of time that it started to malfunction.

I put 30 round through it of ammo giving to me by the rfd. Said they're great cheap rounds and that's when it started to cause problems. I never went back to them rounds and bought the Remington 55gr hp and fmj and after 50 rounds started to act up again. It's been back to RFD 3 times. I love the gun. When it was ok it was great gun. But it came to the point where it was dangerous to shoot. Got a black eye one day over it. No matter the round or manufacturer of the ammo it wasn't right from day one. I just want my 223 back or a gun of same calibre and price.

minktrapper

Out of curiosity can you cock the bolt out of the rifle. Presuming that it can normally be done. I don't know your rifle or the normal function of the bolt but the few rifles I have owned I could cock them in my hand.

Grizzly 45

dodderangler wrote: »

I put the Remington 55gr hp and fmj and after 50 rounds started to act up again. It's been back to RFD 3 times. I love the gun. When it was ok it was great gun. But it came to the point where it was dangerous to shoot. Got a black eye one day over it.

That sounds like the headspace is going to Hell.Which is usually a bolt face problem which hasn't been treated or isn't seating properly. If you can get a set of "Go/NO go/Field" shells this will tell you immediately.These are solid "bullets" machined exactly to the tolerances of a given caliber the No go and field are slightly different.Drop the shells into the chamber and close the action.If it closes on the NO Go.You have a problem with either an expanded chamber or an out of spec headspace. GO, everything is as it should be. FIELD. is used to test the absolute safe minimum for "field"usage.

From Brownells website
headspace Gauges
Headspace is measured with a set of two headspace gauges: a “Go” gauge, and a “No-Go” gauge. Headspace gauges resemble the cartridges for the chambers they are designed to headspace, and are typically made of heat-treated tool steel. Both a “Go” and a “No-Go” gauge are required for a gunsmith to headspace a firearm properly. A third gauge, the “Field” gauge, is used (as the name implies) in the field to indicate the absolute maximum safe headspace. This gauge is used because, over time, the bolt and receiver will wear, the bolt and lugs compress, and the receiver may stretch, all causing the headspace to gradually increase from the “factory specs” measured by the “Go” and “No-Go” gauges. A bolt that closes on “No-Go” but not on “Field” is close to being unsafe to fire, and may malfunction on cartridges that are slightly out of spec.

So next question is.
How many rounds did your friend put thru it before he sold it to you? And what exactly did he shoot?5.56 or .223?

Did he knowingly sell it to you with a serious fault in it?

Was this before or after he had a gunsmith look or tinker with it?

If the problem started when he owned the gun, why didn't he return it under warranty to the manufacturer or as defective stock?

Are there any proof marks on the gun?Be interesting to see if this slipped past a proof house, or if it was in proof when passed to the wholesaler.

Would say you really need a competent gunsmith to give you a written report on this gun and then take legal advice on this .you have been sold a duff bill of goods for some reason.