Inefficient quirks of the Irish public transport system

thelad95

Having travelled throughout Europe it really baffles me how ridiculously inefficient nearly every part of using public transport is in Ireland, be it private or public operators. What stories do you have regarding inefficiency or what parts do you particularly hate?

For me, I absolutely detest the fact that while the NTA is pushing online or pre-purchase of rail tickets, you still have to collect them at a ticket machine by typing in a 14 digit number. If you've gone to the effort of purchasing online, you should be emailed a ticket that is valid for inspection.

Similarly, with the purchase of an online ticket for a Bus Eireann bus, you have to call out the 'MAC numbers' and the process the driver has to go through on his machine is like having to solve some ancient hyroglyphic. The irony of this situation is that it's quicker to buy a ticket using cash from the driver than present your already paid for online booking.

Cash on city buses is something that has been eliminated in some European cities since the turn of the millennium, yet here we still are counting out change. What's even more stupid is people with a leap card still having to interact with the driver in the vast majority of cases.

Don't even get me started on the 'ticket' that Aircoach send you when you book online!

Hande hoche!

Not bothering to link up the red and green luas lines from the start

MilesMorales1

Most of Dublin bus.

WesternZulu

Dublin being well connected to all other majour urban areas but good luck in trying to get to and from other cities that aren't Dublin.
For instance, not being able to get a direct train from Galway to Cork.

Hueston and Connolly station not being connected properly is also a joke.

omagh776

thelad95 wrote: »

Having travelled throughout Europe it really baffles me how ridiculously inefficient nearly every part of using public transport is in Ireland, be it private or public operators. What stories do you have regarding inefficiency or what parts do you particularly hate?

For me, I absolutely detest the fact that while the NTA is pushing online or pre-purchase of rail tickets, you still have to collect them at a ticket machine by typing in a 14 digit number. If you've gone to the effort of purchasing online, you should be emailed a ticket that is valid for inspection.

Similarly, with the purchase of an online ticket for a Bus Eireann bus, you have to call out the 'MAC numbers' and the process the driver has to go through on his machine is like having to solve some ancient hyroglyphic. The irony of this situation is that it's quicker to buy a ticket using cash from the driver than present your already paid for online booking.

Cash on city buses is something that has been eliminated in some European cities since the turn of the millennium, yet here we still are counting out change. What's even more stupid is people with a leap card still having to interact with the driver in the vast majority of cases.

Don't even get me started on the 'ticket' that Aircoach send you when you book online!

Your experience of Continental European public transport is generally limited to major cities, i.e. the City Center, between Cities or to and from the Airport.

France, Italy, Spain, Portugal, The Netherlands, even Germany can be really shítty in parts.

Pretty much everyone in their own country says their own public transport is shít

The Dutch Complain about the OV-Chipkaart and how expensive everything got after that.
The Germans complain the Ticket system is complete Voodoo and nobody knows what ticket to buy when they go to another city, Deutsche Bahn has constant IT problems and delays due to lack of maintenence.
The French are on strike the whole time.
The Italian trains are always late and their ticket machines suck a$$, you'd spend 20 minutes just trying to buy one ticket.
and so on ....

Owryan

Carlow train station, if a wheelchair user is unlucky when their train pulls in they can't dismount and have to go to the next station and get a taxi back to Carlow. I ve seen people ask strangers to them carry over the foot bridge rather than this. Surely in this day and age its no longer acceptable?

Charles Babbage

omagh776 wrote: »

The Dutch Complain about the OV-Chipkaart and how expensive everything got after that.
The Germans complain the Ticket system is complete Voodoo and nobody knows what ticket to buy when they go to another city, Deutsche Bahn has constant IT problems and delays due to lack of maintenence.
The French are on strike the whole time.
The Italian trains are always late and their ticket machines suck a$$, you'd spend 20 minutes just trying to buy one ticket.
and so on ....

Italian rail ticket machines are a model of simplicity, although I see what you mean about the German system, even the Germans have problems sometimes.

Wardling

thelad95 wrote:

Cash on city buses is something that has been eliminated in some European cities since the turn of the millennium, yet here we still are counting out change. What's even more stupid is people with a leap card still having to interact with the driver in the vast majority of cases.

This is ridiculous alright. You should tag on with your leap card as you get on and tag off when leaving. Surely it's not that difficult to deduct the correct fair when alighting.

donegaLroad

WesternZulu wrote: »

Dublin being well connected to all other majour urban areas but good luck in trying to get to and from other cities that aren't Dublin.
For instance, not being able to get a direct train from Galway to Cork.

Hueston and Connolly station not being connected properly is also a joke.

yep.. if you want to go from Sligo to Ballina by train, you need to go to Dublin.


Not all the expressway buses have toilet facilities.

The Bus Eireann website is all over the place.. not user friendly at all.

Dardania

omagh776 wrote: »

thelad95 wrote: »

Having travelled throughout Europe it really baffles me how ridiculously inefficient nearly every part of using public transport is in Ireland, be it private or public operators. What stories do you have regarding inefficiency or what parts do you particularly hate?

For me, I absolutely detest the fact that while the NTA is pushing online or pre-purchase of rail tickets, you still have to collect them at a ticket machine by typing in a 14 digit number. If you've gone to the effort of purchasing online, you should be emailed a ticket that is valid for inspection.

Similarly, with the purchase of an online ticket for a Bus Eireann bus, you have to call out the 'MAC numbers' and the process the driver has to go through on his machine is like having to solve some ancient hyroglyphic. The irony of this situation is that it's quicker to buy a ticket using cash from the driver than present your already paid for online booking.

Cash on city buses is something that has been eliminated in some European cities since the turn of the millennium, yet here we still are counting out change. What's even more stupid is people with a leap card still having to interact with the driver in the vast majority of cases.

Don't even get me started on the 'ticket' that Aircoach send you when you book online!

Your experience of Continental European public transport is generally limited to major cities, i.e. the City Center, between Cities or to and from the Airport.

France, Italy, Spain, Portugal, The Netherlands, even Germany can be really shítty in parts.

Pretty much everyone in their own country says their own public transport is shít

The Dutch Complain about the OV-Chipkaart and how expensive everything got after that.
The Germans complain the Ticket system is complete Voodoo and nobody knows what ticket to buy when they go to another city, Deutsche Bahn has constant IT problems and delays due to lack of maintenence.
The French are on strike the whole time.
The Italian trains are always late and their ticket machines suck a$, you'd spend 20 minutes just trying to buy one ticket.
and so on ....

Indeed. In Helsinki, it's not possible to have the travel card auto topup, whereas with leap, it just direct debits automatically.
Not to mention, they don't do direct debits at all in Helsinki, you have to remember to pay bills generally by yourself, and the IBAN's reference number changse every month...

oppenheimer1

A driver not wanting to do a run because it will terminate a minute before their shift ends?

Dardania

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

A driver not wanting to do a run because it will terminate a minute before their shift ends?

To be fair, that was dealt with correctly by Transdev, and upheld by the WRC

MilesMorales1

WesternZulu wrote: »

Dublin being well connected to all other majour urban areas but good luck in trying to get to and from other cities that aren't Dublin.
For instance, not being able to get a direct train from Galway to Cork.

Hueston and Connolly station not being connected properly is also a joke.

.... I only just thought of that. That is weird. Why aren't they?

odyssey06

The genius in Dublin Bus sends out the 29A, 31 and 32 from three different places (Baldoyle, Howth, Portmarnock) and gets them to converge within 5 minutes of each other at Killester; so if you miss one you miss them all. I think he spent too much time playing war games as a kid.

A more obvious one is the scheduling of the 42 and 43 leaving town. They share a lot of the same route, but the departures mostly happen within 5-10 minutes of each other so if you lived along its common route, you miss one you miss two...

osarusan

WesternZulu wrote: »

For instance, not being able to get a direct train from Galway to Cork.

Running one would be an even more inefficient thing to do.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Haven't lived in Dublin for a while, but do all the timetables still have only the departure times from the terminus displayed at every single stop? Meaning, if you have no idea how far you are from the terminus, or how what route the bes takes before it gets to that specifci stop, then it's impossible to deduce what time the bus actually gets to your stop at (not that it's any easier if you do and it's more than a few stops down the line)?

Always did my head in.

That and listing destinations and stops in Irish only...

MilesMorales1

The real time app is chronically inaccurate.

osarusan

MilesMorales1 wrote: »

The real time app is chronically inaccurate.

Was just about to post that. More than once, I've seen a 'real' bus time get closer, then closer, then due, then just fall off the bottom of the screen.

ChikiChiki

The leap card delay when tagging on. It should be instant. It all accumulates to a serious amount of time wasted for all.

thelad95

MilesMorales1 wrote: »

The real time app is chronically inaccurate.

All it essentially does is count down to the scheduled time the bus is meant to be at that stop, hence the common complaint of buses 'disappearing'.

circadian

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Haven't lived in Dublin for a while, but do all the timetables still have only the departure times from the terminus displayed at every single stop? Meaning, if you have no idea how far you are from the terminus, or how what route the bes takes before it gets to that specifci stop, then it's impossible to deduce what time the bus actually gets to your stop at (not that it's any easier if you do and it's more than a few stops down the line)?

Always did my head in.

That and listing destinations and stops in Irish only...

Yes this is how the timetable are. I moved to Dublin a few years ago and still don't understand why they can't timetable like everyone else.

Kimbot

MOD Moved to Commuting & Transport Forum as its more appropriate over there

GhostyMcGhost

thelad95 wrote: »

All it essentially does is count down to the scheduled time the bus is meant to be at that stop, hence the common complaint of buses 'disappearing'.

Should not be called 'real time'

It's a glorified digital timetable

Carlos Orange

GhostyMcGhost wrote: »

Should not be called 'real time'

It's a glorified digital timetable

The FAQ says it uses the busses current location to predict when it will arrive so it isn't just a digital timetable. Then again it also says

"The multi-operator, multi-city web service will be bilingual. This is one of the requirements for developing stage 2 of the web service. This is due to be available at the start of 2012."

so maybe the FAQ isn't quite real time either.

devnull

ChikiChiki wrote: »

The leap card delay when tagging on. It should be instant. It all accumulates to a serious amount of time wasted for all.

Unfortunately the big bottleneck is the ticket machines because they are based on early 90s desktop computer architecture and the ticket machines themselves were superseeded by a newer model around the same time as Dublin Bus installed the older model in 2006.

LionelNashe

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Haven't lived in Dublin for a while, but do all the timetables still have only the departure times from the terminus displayed at every single stop? Meaning, if you have no idea how far you are from the terminus, or how what route the bes takes before it gets to that specifci stop, then it's impossible to deduce what time the bus actually gets to your stop at (not that it's any easier if you do and it's more than a few stops down the line)?
...

Yes, but it doesn't matter any more, because a lot of stops, and every smart phone, tells you how many minutes it is until the next bus arrives, updated in real time.

Mrs OBumble

thelad95 wrote: »

Cash on city buses is something that has been eliminated in some European cities since the turn of the millennium, yet here we still are counting out change. What's even more stupid is people with a leap card still having to interact with the driver in the vast majority of cases

Using a Leap card to pay for a city service takes even longer than paying in cash and having change dispensed back to you.


Lack of back or middle doors on buses - makes loading/unloading time at busy stops take 25% longer than it should. (Yes, I know some in Dublin have 'em now, but 1/2 of us don't live in Dublin.)

Annie get your Run

osarusan wrote: »

Was just about to post that. More than once, I've seen a 'real' bus time get closer, then closer, then due, then just fall off the bottom of the screen.

Or worse, bus shows on the online realtime display and then disappears about 20 mins before it's due to arrive at that stop, but still shows up at the originally predicted time :rolleyes:. A regular occurrence on my bus route.

Edit: another bug bear of mine is that there is no information on when your bus is destined to arrive at a particular stop - it's not like the information isn't there, it just isn't shown to the customer.

LeinsterDub

Via i Lar

marno21

Deedsie wrote: »

Buses getting caught in traffic congestion. No such thing as a bus lane in towns outside the cities. I type this sitting on a X12 "expressway" bus crawling through Portlaoise. Bus is half an hour late because of this. How much would a bus lane/cycle lane cost through Portlaoise? Absolute bull**** trying to rely on buses when they are forced to use the same infrastructure as private cars.

Where are you going to? There is a train service out of Portlaoise, and the Electric Picnic is on. You could easily have predicted this would happen

marno21

Trains packed to bursting entering Dublin in the mornings leaving passengers on platforms while mostly empty carriages requiring €550 operating subsidy per passenger journey trundle through the countryside

Empty Expressway buses running parallel to rail lines with similarly timed trains

KD345

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Haven't lived in Dublin for a while, but do all the timetables still have only the departure times from the terminus displayed at every single stop?

If it's a help, you can get a stop specific timetable on the National Journey Planner website and app. Just select timetable, type in the route number and the PDF will load.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

That and listing destinations and stops in Irish only...

Can you give an example - all timetables in Dublin are in both English and Irish.

thelad95 wrote: »

All it essentially does is count down to the scheduled time the bus is meant to be at that stop, hence the common complaint of buses 'disappearing'.

This is not true. The scheduled time only displays until the bus becomes active, at which point the live time is displayed. Buses can get delayed/cancelled due to diversions, passengers, traffic, anti-social behaviour etc.

Cervantes2

Dublin Bus 75 route:eek: Incredibly slow and unreliable.

Real-time information as mentioned above. Buses vanishing off the system

LXFlyer

Cervantes2 wrote: »

Dublin Bus 75 route:eek: Incredibly slow and unreliable.

Real-time information as mentioned above. Buses vanishing off the system

You are aware that there is a new timetable on the 75 that has improved reliability?

Kimbot

Deedsie wrote: »

It happens everyday. Excuse me for wanting the buses to actually arrive and depart on time. Nothing to do with Electric picnic. Having previously lived in Portlaoise I am very familiar with. A priority bus lane from Kilminchy Roundabout to the first roundabout at the church would easily improve journey times for buses by at least 10 mins.

The only train I could have got wouldn't have arrived till 20:00 this evening. Unfortunately it is an awful service which will soon be closed permanently. Wouldn't it be nice if it was replaced by an improved bus route.

There is no space to widen the roads to give them the lanes required to do that in portlaoise tho. Traffic is only bad at rush hours in Portlaoise, 9am 1pm and 5pm, unless there is something on like electric picnic.

LXFlyer

Deedsie wrote: »

It happens everyday. Excuse me for wanting the buses to actually arrive and depart on time. Nothing to do with Electric picnic. Having previously lived in Portlaoise I am very familiar with. A priority bus lane from Kilminchy Roundabout to the first roundabout at the church would easily improve journey times for buses by at least 10 mins.

The only train I could have got wouldn't have arrived till 20:00 this evening. Unfortunately it is an awful service which will soon be closed permanently. Wouldn't it be nice if it was replaced by an improved bus route.

The bus timetable on the X12 or indeed any other route needs to reflect the actual traffic conditions expected on each departure rather than blindly being identical for all departures - it's meaningless otherwise.

First and foremost that is a scheduling issue.

Putting bus priority measures in place is another issue that needs addressing but will also need funding to implement.

Kimbot

Deedsie wrote: »

There is loads of room, there is already a cycle lane which could be increased similar to bus/cycle lanes in Dublin. Buses and cyclists and taxis can get on relatively well.

Where on this road can they add 2 additional lanes to do what you propose?

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.0387572,-7.2762304,3a,75y,239.19h,71.2t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1srruhJ6UX1T2ucdIieZnYUg!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DrruhJ6UX1T2ucdIieZnYUg%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D219.86641%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656

rebel456

Every transport system has its quirks and kinks, most countries think their own is sh@t when compared to others. But to complain about the situation in Ireland....

1.) Intercity train fares, when not bought online, are outrageous and discourage travel by rail, especially when private coaches cover the route for similar journey time at a fraction of the cost (covered recently in another thread).

2.) Expansion with little forward thinking. Dublin Bus is fantastic, gets you to the vast majority of areas in the capital city, but at a cost in terms of time. It will take you the bones of an hour as you have to transit through the city centre. Every area/large housing development got its own direct bus into the city, and out the other side. Thus Dame St etc is clogged with double deckers going in the generally same direction.

3.) Lack of a 'Network' outside Dublin. In Dublin you can change modes without major difficulty, and use your LEAP to keep the cost down. Outside of the big smoke it becomes more problematic. Even transit between large towns/cities is a challenge but I'll give one example of the town of Mallow in North Cork. If you wish to travel to the nearby towns of Buttevant, Kanturk, Newmarket, etc from Dublin, it would initially seem like a decent idea to get the train to Mallow... but the station is a good 20/25 minute walk from bus stop - with no option for through ticketing or a bus stop nearer the station.

4.) Late running - or the lack thereof. Dublin Bus finishing services at 11.30pm is a downright joke. The demand is certainly there to keep going til 1am, especially Thursday to Saturday along major routes. There is no excuse of cutting public transport off at such an early time. Also the last train on some inter-city services is too early; 7.05pm to Sligo, 7.35pm to Galway. Irish Rail seem to have the illusion it's pre-2000's and folks designate a whole day to 'get to Dublin, or home from Dublin'.

Mousewar

Two things that get me are:
1) That the dart stations have Punctuality Statistics up that are usually over 90% but then have in smallprint that a train is considered punctual if it is less than 5 minutes late. I reckon the real figure for punctuality as defined by the dictionary would be about 50%.
2) That a person requiring wheelchair access to a dart has to give 24 hours notice in many stations. So in other words, the possibility of spontaneity is denied to disabled people and also, I might add, they can't be late. They have to show up for the time at which help has been arranged.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Via i Lar

Via Dohaeris

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

KD345 wrote: »

If it's a help, you can get a stop specific timetable on the National Journey Planner website and app. Just select timetable, type in the route number and the PDF will load.



Can you give an example - all timetables in Dublin are in both English and Irish.

Haven't lived in Dublin for a while as I said.

I definitely remember the 46A listing the times the bus would pass through Stigh Lorcan and the 75 going through Dun Droma on he way to An Cearnog.

dr.fuzzenstein

MilesMorales1 wrote: »

.... I only just thought of that. That is weird. Why aren't they?

Connolly and Heuston probably aren't connected for the same reason the airport isn't connected or the Luas lines aren't connected.
It's just that when it comes to planning, everyone plows their own little furrow in splendid isolation, just do your own little job and think no further. Or maybe that's dictated from up above.
The "not my job" mentality.

Del.Monte

marno21 wrote: »

Trains packed to bursting entering Dublin in the mornings leaving passengers on platforms while mostly empty carriages requiring €550 operating subsidy per passenger journey trundle through the countryside

Empty Expressway buses running parallel to rail lines with similarly timed trains

Yeah, the two piece railcar set on the Nenagh branch would solve all the overcrowding elsewhere.

Del.Monte

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Connolly and Heuston probably aren't connected for the same reason the airport isn't connected or the Luas lines aren't connected.
It's just that when it comes to planning, everyone plows their own little furrow in splendid isolation, just do your own little job and think no further. Or maybe that's dictated from up above.
The "not my job" mentality.

Connolly and Heuston belonged to two different railway companies that's why there weren't directly connected although the Phoenix park tunnel was used back in the early 1900's.

Kimbot

Deedsie wrote: »

Well given that the traffic lane there is twice the width of a car already I can't see how adding a Southbound bus corridor at the very least would be a major problem. Northbound would be desirable but not as necessary really.

You might get 1 lane of traffic there with a footpath but never 2 so your still going to have the same problem with traffic.

rebel456

Del.Monte wrote: »

Yeah, the two piece railcar set on the Nenagh branch would solve all the overcrowding elsewhere.

Certainly not. But that two-car state owned rail asset could be much better deployed than currently used.

eeguy

Honestly there has to be some sort of algorithm to plan out the most efficient bus timetable.

You have a known number of busses, you know your route, you know how long it takes to complete at different times of the day and you know where your passengers mount and dismount.

KD345

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Haven't lived in Dublin for a while as I said.

I definitely remember the 46A listing the times the bus would pass through Stigh Lorcan and the 75 going through Dun Droma on he way to An Cearnog.

The layout of the timetables have not changed in some time, see example link below for route 75 - you can see the locations listed in Irish across the top, and then in English just below the timetable itself...

http://www.dublinbus.ie/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/7511/

LXFlyer

KD345 wrote: »

The layout of the timetables have not changed in some time, see example link below for route 75 - you can see the locations listed in Irish across the top, and then in English just below the timetable itself...

http://www.dublinbus.ie/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/7511/

I think they mean the timetables on the stops - the intermediate timing estimates aren't posted on the stop panels and as such they're only in Irish on the stops!

That whole area is due to be revamped as part of the BusConnects project.

besserwisser

• Lack of integrated ticketing. I should be able to pay for a journey which covers all modes (Bus, Luas, DART, Commuter, InterCity, etc.) without having to pay for each mode separately (or having to use my Leap Card multiple times).
  
• Load and unload times on Dublin Bus simply take too long.
  
• Driver changes mid-journey on Dublin Bus (where the replacement driver is almost always late!)
  
• Too many stops on most Dublin Bus routes. Bigger distances between stops may contribute to speedier journeys.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

KD345 wrote: »

The layout of the timetables have not changed in some time, see example link below for route 75 - you can see the locations listed in Irish across the top, and then in English just below the timetable itself...

http://www.dublinbus.ie/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/7511/

LXFlyer wrote: »

I think they mean the timetables on the stops - the intermediate timing estimates aren't posted on the stop panels and as such they're only in Irish on the stops!

That whole area is due to be revamped as part of the BusConnects project.

This.

Back in the day before smartphones, online information wasn't available at your fingertips (it's not so long ago! and before I left Dublin) so it just added one more confusing step to try and work out when the bus was actually scheduled to be at the stop. And that was before you take into account traffic and other variables that migth make it early or late.