"Book readers" - Season 7 Episode 7 "The Dragon and the Wolf"

awec

Daith wrote: »

I can't remember if E+R's Aegon was actually named in the show?

In that case then yes, there's two Aegons who are both sons of Rhaegar with two different women?

He was in earlier seasons like when they talked about Ser Gregor killing the two children. It was one of the reasons Oberyn Martell died, he fought Ser Gregor to avenge the two children.

So it appears there has been two Aegon's to two different mothers with the same father? That is just unnecessarily confusing

The Hound Gone Wild

awec wrote: »

I am confused about the Aegon thing.

Wasn't Aegon the child of Elia Martell and Rheagon? But now Jon is supposed to have been Aegon all along? How does that work?

That other Aegon was killed by the mountain. The Aegon from the books is almost confirmed a Blackfyre now?

Raises a question as to why Rheagar would name Jon Aegon when his Aegon with Ellia was still alive by that point.

Perhaps it's just shïtty writing from D&D and GRRM will have other plans for Jon's name.

Billy86

RobbingBandit wrote: »

Way too much politics for a finale.

I love the battles scenes, am generally not big on fantasy (but do love sci fi) and have really enjoyed everything from Dragons to Red Priests/Priestesses to White Walkers, but this show is at it's best when doing politics, families and the human side of things.

One of the better episodes ever I thought, and a huge, huge relief to see some really well played out and written scenes focusing on the politics as well as the exciting, action-driven stuff. Hopefully we see a good bit of this next year too.

GerB40 wrote: »

Too much has to happen in 6 episodes. I think changing the 10 episode formula was a mistake but having said that, this season has been pretty fúckin good, if not perhaps a bit rushed at times. The next seasons episodes better be a least 2 hours long to fit in everything that needs to happen..

I think today showed what a difference even seven 90 minute episodes would have made (would have come to 10.5 hours too, so more time!). In a perfect world I think the show really needed 30 episodes to wind up properly, 20 was cutting it fine, and 14 was a flat out mistake (last week was maybe the best example of why).

Although I have a sneaky suspicion that we could be seeing next season end right before a huge, final type battle leading to a 2.5+ hour movie in Christmas 2018 to send the show off with one big, final, money-making bang.

Dial Hard

Todd Toddington III wrote: »

Cersei is still a cnut!!

She's an utter geebag. Can't wait to see her get her comeuppance.

A mixed bag of an episode for me. I felt it was slow to start. The Littlefinger thing felt very rushed, almost like an afterthought. The wall coming down was epic. Jon and Dany??? I'm actually kind of surprised D&D went there. We know incest was common among royal families in that universe but I didn't think the audience would accept it between two such popular characters.

awec

Incest has always been practiced among Targaryens so it was always going to happen.

Daith

awec wrote: »

He was in earlier seasons like when they talked about Ser Gregor killing the two children. It was one of the reasons Oberyn Martell died, he fought Ser Gregor to avenge the two children.

I know it mentioned the deaths of the children but couldn't remember if the children were named.

The Hound Gone Wild wrote: »

Raises a question as to why Rheagar would name Jon Aegon when his Aegon with Ellia was still alive by that point.

We don't know if Rhaegar actually named Jon though. He was dead before that scene with Ned and Lyanna.

knucklehead6

Daith wrote: »

I know it mentioned the deaths of the children but couldn't remember if the children were named.




We don't know if Rhaegar actually named Jon though. He was dead before that scene with Ned and Lyanna.

it would also explain why the Kingsguard were there, Lyanna was carrying the (at that point) Targaryen heir

RobbingBandit

Incest between siblings is seen on screen and in the book, Jon himself stops a pseudo incestuous Karstark relationship when Alys Karstark comes to the wall on the dead horse, this doesn't happen in the show but the Northerners are strange. Ned Stark blood still runs through his veins just not as thick as they thought so will the Lords of the North follow a Southerner King.

Daith

RobbingBandit wrote: »

Incest between siblings is seen on screen and in the book, Jon himself stops a pseudo incestuous Karstark relationship when Alys Karstark comes to the wall on the dead horse, this doesn't happen in the show but the Northerners are strange. Ned Stark blood still runs through his veins just not as thick as they thought so will the Lords of the North follow a Southerner King.

He's not a Southern King. He's the son of Ned Stark just as Theon Greyjoy is. The Jon/Theon scene is important. Jon might need to know but there's no reason that Bran/Sam need to tell anyone else.

The Hound Gone Wild

Daith wrote: »

We don't know if Rhaegar actually named Jon though. He was dead before that scene with Ned and Lyanna.

True enough. Forget that the tower of joy scenes happen after Rhaegar's death.

RobbingBandit

Ned asks Robert if he remembers the Trident, he says yes I won my damn crown there, Ned then says you avenged Lyanna there. Rhaegar left her in Dorne in the tower of joy under the protection of Ser Arthur Dayne. She died before the Battle of the Trident.

Daith

RobbingBandit wrote: »

Ned asks Robert if he remembers the Trident, he says yes I won my damn crown there, Ned then says you avenged Lyanna there.

Yeah, the Trident is the pivotal battle but Ned finds Lyanna after Rhaegar's death and the Mad Kings death/Sack of Kings Landing. He rides from KL to Dorne doesn't he?

"The Mad King is dead. Rhaegar lies beneath the ground. Why weren't you there to protect your prince?"

Turns out they were protecting their prince.

Daith

Daith wrote: »

Yeah, the Trident is the pivotal battle but Ned finds Lyanna after Rhaegar's death and the Mad Kings death/Sack of Kings Landing. He rides from KL to Dorne doesn't he?

"The Mad King is dead. Rhaegar lies beneath the ground. Why weren't you there to protect your prince?"

Turns out they were protecting their prince.

Yip, Jon is born after the war is finished.

Anyway, thought the episode was decent.
Wasn't keen on the Littlefinger story, and thought his execution was rushed. I would have rather that they kept him prisoner for a while (not sure why)
I was hoping to see Tormund and Beric raised as wights at the end. With the way this season has been written, I presume they're still alive, and somehow, will reach Winterfell before the White walkers.
Loved the scenes with Cersei and her brothers. I presume that Jamie is going to join up with the rest of the Power Rangers
Thought the reveal of Jon/Aegon was a bit silly. Expect GRRM to do it much, much better

All in all, probably the worst season of Game of Thrones IMO. Sub standard writing. The only scene I remember getting excited for, was when Bran arrived at Winterfell, and I wrongly guessed it was going to be Arya.
Too much waste in a shortened season. Sam in the Citadel, Jorah getting cured. Grey worm and Missandrei. Sansa vs Arya. I'm sure there were other things, but the waste definitely outweighed the good

Conchir

It's been overshadowed by the ending, but couldn't be happier with Jaime finally walking away. Really feels like he's grown, that he's fulfilling his arc.

MrsFlushdraw

The Hound Gone Wild wrote: »

That other Aegon was killed by the mountain. The Aegon from the books is almost confirmed a Blackfyre now?

Raises a question as to why Rheagar would name Jon Aegon when his Aegon with Ellia was still alive by that point.

Perhaps it's just shïtty writing from D&D and GRRM will have other plans for Jon's name.

Rheagar was sure that either himself or his son would be the prince that was promised and afaik that was why he named Aegon that originally, with the death of his first Aegon then I can only imagine they chose to use the name again due to prophecy.

Named for Aegon the Conqueror.

And someone else wrote before I got back to this that it was after the battle of the Trident and the baby was dead I am pretty sure at that point.

Daith

MrsFlushdraw wrote: »

Rheagar was sure that either himself or his son would be the prince that was promised and afaik that was why he named Aegon that originally, with the death of his first Aegon then I can only imagine they chose to use the name again due to prophecy.

Named for Aegon the Conqueror.

And someone else wrote before I got back to this that it was after the battle of the Trident and the baby was dead I am pretty sure at that point.

Yes, I think Lyanna must have heard about the death of the babies in KL and decided to call him Aegon.

There's the whole, Rhaegar was crazy about the prophecy and named his two his sons Aegon but I think it's simpler than that. I'd say Lyanna knew he liked that name.

PIORUN

RobbingBandit wrote: »

Ned asks Robert if he remembers the Trident, he says yes I won my damn crown there, Ned then says you avenged Lyanna there. Rhaegar left her in Dorne in the tower of joy under the protection of Ser Arthur Dayne. She died before the Battle of the Trident.

but in Brans flashback , Ned says to Dayne " I looked for you at the Trident" so Lyanna was still alive then.

Daith

PIORUN wrote: »

but in Brans flashback , Ned says to Dayne " I looked for you at the Trident" so Lyanna was still alive then.

Oh yes, Lyanna was still alive after the Battle of the Trident, Sack of Kings Landing and the Siege of Storm's End.

DeadHand

Why was Jon named "Snow"?

Robert's Rebellion was fought mainly in the River, Crown and Storm lands. Not the North.

So, if Ned's "I had him while away at war" story was to be credible, should he not have named Jon "Storm", "Rivers" or whatever the Crownland counterpart is?

It doesn't seem plausible that he had the time or inclination to impregnate someone on his initial rush South or on the journey back. Moreover, he'd hardly have got up to such hijinks in the North- not being the type to play away so close to home.

It doesn't add up and makes an already dubious story dangerously incredible. I'm surprised I haven't seen it questioned before.

It probably just comes down to "Jon Snow" sounds good.

connemara man

DeadHand wrote: »

Why was Jon named "Snow"?

Robert's Rebellion was fought mainly in the River, Crown and Storm lands. Not the North.

So, if Ned's "I had him while away at war" story was to be credible, should he not have named Jon "Storm", "Rivers" or whatever the Crownland counterpart is?

It doesn't seem plausible that he had the time or inclination to impregnate someone on his initial rush South or on the journey back. Moreover, he'd hardly have got up to such hijinks in the North- not being the type to play away so close to home.

It doesn't add up and makes an already dubious story dangerously incredible. I'm surprised I haven't seen it questioned before.

It probably just comes down to "Jon Snow" sounds good.

He's a bastard of a northern lord hence snow.

Dial Hard

DeadHand wrote: »

Why was Jon named "Snow"?

Robert's Rebellion was fought mainly in the River, Crown and Storm lands. Not the North.

Because he was reared in the North by a Northern lord claiming him as his bastard son, ergo he was given the Northern name for a bastard. Obviously.

Daith

DeadHand wrote: »

It doesn't seem plausible that he had the time or inclination to impregnate someone on his initial rush South or on the journey back. Moreover, he'd hardly have got up to such hijinks in the North- not being the type to play away so close to home.

He wasn't the type to play away anywhere, no matter what the distance was.

Savage Tyrant

Daith wrote: »

He wasn't the type to play away anywhere, no matter what the distance was.

This is one of my main stickler points of both show and books... we all know how honourable Ned was... it makes no sense to me that at the very least he didn't confide the information about Jon to Catelyn. I know he was trying to protect Jon (and by extension, his whole family if they were discovered to be harbouring a Targaryen heir) but surely such an honourable man could and indeed SHOULD have confided to his wife, especially after it became clear that she herself resented the boy. It really made me dislike Catelyn despite being an otherwise good strong character.

Daith

Savage Tyrant wrote: »

This is one of my main stickler points of both show and books... we all know how honourable Ned was... it makes no sense to me that at the very least he didn't confide the information about Jon to Catelyn. I know he was trying to protect Jon (and by extension, his whole family if they were discovered to be harbouring a Targaryen heir) but surely such an honourable man could and indeed SHOULD have confided to his wife, especially after it became clear that she herself resented the boy. It really made me dislike Catelyn despite being an otherwise good strong character.

Interesting parallel here

Ned made a promise to Lyanna (probably to protect Jon/not tell anyone) and did that even if it caused issues with Cat

Jon made a promise to Dany to support her and didn't break that (even pretending to) when Cersei wanted him to.

In both cases, they thought their promise was more important.

leggo

Savage Tyrant wrote: »

This is one of my main stickler points of both show and books... we all know how honourable Ned was... it makes no sense to me that at the very least he didn't confide the information about Jon to Catelyn. I know he was trying to protect Jon (and by extension, his whole family if they were discovered to be harbouring a Targaryen heir) but surely such an honourable man could and indeed SHOULD have confided to his wife, especially after it became clear that she herself resented the boy. It really made me dislike Catelyn despite being an otherwise good strong character.

Thing is, though, Ned was stupid. He was honourable and brave and a helluva guy, but he was never intelligent. All of his motivation was driven by what was right and honourable before what was smart. So yeah, it would've saved him a lot of grief to tell Cat, but he'd have felt like he was betraying his pledge to Lyanna in doing so, so he didn't.

Riddle101

Savage Tyrant wrote: »

This is one of my main stickler points of both show and books... we all know how honourable Ned was... it makes no sense to me that at the very least he didn't confide the information about Jon to Catelyn. I know he was trying to protect Jon (and by extension, his whole family if they were discovered to be harbouring a Targaryen heir) but surely such an honourable man could and indeed SHOULD have confided to his wife, especially after it became clear that she herself resented the boy. It really made me dislike Catelyn despite being an otherwise good strong character.

The problem with secrets is that the more people know about it the harder it is to keep it a secret. Ned was the only one to know about Jon and it was safer that way. While I do think Catelyn was trustworthy, nobody knows if she might have revealed the secret to someone else, someone she trusted. Ned probably decided it was best to keep it to himself.

DeadHand

Dial Hard wrote: »

Because he was reared in the North by a Northern lord claiming him as his bastard son, ergo he was given the Northern name for a bastard. Obviously.

Don't know why you need to be snarky about a simple question.

The nerd rage is strong with this one.

LionelNashe

Littlefinger, yes!! Some good whimpering by Aidan Gillen there as well.
Jon, NO!!

They're symbolically cursed now. I thought it signified that one of them would die, but maybe the wall coming down fulfills the doom.

Who'll reach Winterfell first? The armies on the kings road, or the dead?

awec

LionelNashe wrote: »

Littlefinger, yes!! Some good whimpering by Aidan Gillen there as well.
Jon, NO!!

They're symbolically cursed now. I thought it signified that one of them would die, but maybe the wall coming down fulfills the doom.

Who'll reach Winterfell first? The armies on the kings road, or the dead?

Things that happen at the same time in the show don't really happen at the same time remember.

I am betting that Jon etc get back to Winterfell long before the dead army arrives.

Daith

awec wrote: »

I am betting that Jon etc get back to Winterfell long before the dead army arrives.

Hopefully we'll get some decent reunions before the show kicks into overdrive

Sansa/Tyrion
Dany/Sansa
Arya/The Hound
Arya/Gendry (where is he? Eastwatch?)
Ghost/Drogon

Is it just me or did Drogon look tiny in this ep? He seemed massive when he was buring the Tarlys for some reason.