General gaming discussion

The Raging Bile Duct

Retr0gamer wrote: »

No, this isn't MGS2 which would be prescient. these conspiracy theories are pure fantasy and while Deus Ex treats them as fantasy and has fun with them, today we have groups that believe these modern fairy tales are true and doing enormous amounts of damage because of their misguided beliefs.

It's a bit uncomfortable and not really the games fault. It's hardly 'Birth of a Nation' (although that was pretty much reviled on release apparently) or Bioshock Infinite.

It's a piece of fiction, nothing else. It's not trying to con you into believing anything it's saying is true. Fiction like this wouldn't ever make me feel uncomfortable.

Retr0gamer

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

It's a piece of fiction, nothing else. It's not trying to con you into believing anything it's saying is true. Fiction like this wouldn't ever make me feel uncomfortable.

It's called art, and even if the art is as frivolous as Deus Ex in can still elicits a response.

Anyway I'm not saying 'cancel Deus Ex!' and it's not like Bioshock Infinite where it's handling of some subject matter is very questionable. It's just strange that the conspiracy theory themes of Deus Ex that seemed quaint and frivolous nonsense back at release are now damaging society. I mean I went on a few forest walks at the weekend and noticed graffiti on the Covid-19 signage with illuminati symbols on them.

You can dismiss it but all I know is it elicits a response from me. It's more so that something so ridiculous and played for fun is now a real negative threat to society. Deus Ex knew it was stupid, it's unfortunate a lot of people these days don't.

I suppose as pixelburp says it hasn't aged per se, more that the theme's it plays on have been misappropriated and amplified by internet algorithms.

Robert ninja

Retr0gamer wrote: »

It's called art

Called it, sure.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

You can dismiss it but all I know is it elicits a response from me.

I wonder what could be the cause of that :pac: Please share the name of that documentary you mentioned.

one armed dwarf

It's cause it's the type of stuff which was always consigned to outlandish escapist fiction. It's one of the reasons I stopped enjoying Black Mirror when more and more of the stuff it was predicting started to align with reality in uncomfortable ways. Like not necessarily in terms of the technology represented but how it would accelerate societal downslide. It stops being speculative and starts to become dull when it's telling you about **** you can already see.

I can't remember much of Deus Ex tho tbh. I did find it funny when Elon Musk of all ppl had a JC Denton avatar.

The Raging Bile Duct

Retr0gamer wrote: »

It's called art, and even if the art is as frivolous as Deus Ex in can still elicits a response.

Anyway I'm not saying 'cancel Deus Ex!' and it's not like Bioshock Infinite where it's handling of some subject matter is very questionable. It's just strange that the conspiracy theory themes of Deus Ex that seemed quaint and frivolous nonsense back at release are now damaging society. I mean I went on a few forest walks at the weekend and noticed graffiti on the Covid-19 signage with illuminati symbols on them.

You can dismiss it but all I know is it elicits a response from me. It's more so that something so ridiculous and played for fun is now a real negative threat to society. Deus Ex knew it was stupid, it's unfortunate a lot of people these days don't.

I suppose as pixelburp says it hasn't aged per se, more that the theme's it plays on have been misappropriated and amplified by internet algorithms.

To me, that's kind of like saying that reading 'Catcher in the Rye' makes you uncomfortable because its protagonist was an inspiration for Mark Chapman. The intention of Sallinger was never to inspire an assassination but Chapman latched on to it and created a mythology in his head around the book.

The intent of the creator of the work would be more important than how certain audiences might interpret it. Judging a past work because something happened in the intervening years, that the author could never envisage, to make the subject matter a much more fraught issue seems a bit ott to me.

one armed dwarf

I didn't think anyone here was judging Deus ex, just that present context stops it from being as much a mild diversion from reality as it was in 2000.

I think trying to discern authorial intent is useless anyway as a lot of them prefer to have their work do the talking for them, as it should be. Having an uncomfortable reaction is also part of engaging with art.

Retr0gamer

Robert ninja wrote: »

Called it, sure.

I wonder what could be the cause of that :pac: Please share the name of that documentary you mentioned.

Folding Ideas - In Search of a Flat Earth

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

To me, that's kind of like saying that reading 'Catcher in the Rye' makes you uncomfortable because its protagonist was an inspiration for Mark Chapman. The intention of Sallinger was never to inspire an assassination but Chapman latched on to it and created a mythology in his head around the book.

The intent of the creator of the work would be more important than how certain audiences might interpret it. Judging a past work because something happened in the intervening years, that the author could never envisage, to make the subject matter a much more fraught issue seems a bit ott to me.

First of all I'm not a crazed killer thank you very much. don't equate me to one please.

Secondly not judging a past work because something happened in the intervening years is equivalent to putting your fingers in your ears and shouting 'La, La, La!'.

The piece of art is out in the public and the public conscience. It interacts with it and changes it. Sometimes the world changes and reflects on the art in a different way.

To just focus on the authors original intent and ignore interpretations or how it fits in with a modern society is disingenuous and unacademic.

Basically you can't just ignore the affect art has on culture or cultures affect on art because you don't like it. It's real, it happens and is happening and it won't go away no matter how loud you scream 'La, La, La!'. Sure, discuss the authors original intent but but to ignore the rest and stiffling discussion about it is frankly ridiculous.

The Raging Bile Duct

one armed dwarf wrote: »

I think trying to discern authorial intent is useless anyway as a lot of them prefer to have their work do the talking for them, as it should be.

This sentence makes zero sense to me. If the creator of the artwork is confident in their vision and they have the skill to articulate it, then their intention will be perfectly clear - of course their work do the talking for them. That's the whole point.

There are credible suggestions (from mainstream media and intelligence analysts) that the popularity of conspiracy theories lately is being driven by the Russians.

But that in itself is a "shadowy conspiracy theory" - one nation trying to confuse and confound the citizens of another. I mean that's as X-Files as it gets. And external threats to society are as old as society itself.

The Raging Bile Duct

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Folding Ideas - In Search of a Flat Earth



First of all I'm not a crazed killer thank you very much. don't equate me to one please.

Secondly not judging a past work because something happened in the intervening years is equivalent to putting your fingers in your ears and shouting 'La, La, La!'.

The piece of art is out in the public and the public conscience. It interacts with it and changes it. Sometimes the world changes and reflects on the art in a different way.

To just focus on the authors original intent and ignore interpretations or how it fits in with a modern society is disingenuous and unacademic.

Basically you can't just ignore the affect art has on culture or cultures affect on art because you don't like it. It's real, it happens and is happening and it won't go away no matter how loud you scream 'La, La, La!'. Sure, discuss the authors original intent but but to ignore the rest and stiffling discussion about it is frankly ridiculous.

How the fúck was I comparing you to a crazed killer?!?! Jesus... and you're the one talking about stifling discussion?

I never said the discussion wasn't valid, I just give my viewpoint on it. Ffs.

Retr0gamer

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

This sentence makes zero sense to me. If the creator of the artwork is confident in their vision and they have the skill to articulate it, then their intention will be perfectly clear - of course their work do the talking for them. That's the whole point.

One word - Murakami.

Retr0gamer

Deleted User wrote: »

There are credible suggestions (from mainstream media and intelligence analysts) that the popularity of conspiracy theories lately is being driven by the Russians.

But that in itself is a "shadowy conspiracy theory" - one nation trying to confuse and confound the citizens of another. I mean that's as X-Files as it gets. And external threats to society are as old as society itself.

Now Deus Ex is prescient. Not thought of that!

Retr0gamer

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

How the fúck was I comparing you to a crazed killer?!?! Jesus... and you're the one talking about stifling discussion?

I never said the discussion wasn't valid, I just give my viewpoint on it. Ffs.

Just saying your original Mark Chapman analogy was nonsense and dismissive (not of me but arts and cultures interaction)

one armed dwarf

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

This sentence makes zero sense to me. If the creator of the artwork is confident in their vision and they have the skill to articulate it, then their intention will be perfectly clear - of course their work do the talking for them. That's the whole point.

But there's huge swathes of literature, film, TV etc that doesn't settle on a single fully unambiguous interpretation that everyone can agree on though.

Like I'm not saying that a creator won't try to speak through their art, but I don't agree that their intentions will be perfectly clear through the art because interpreting art is such a foggy subject at best and that is often deliberate.

This is a bit off topic though because I don't really think that Deus Ex is trying to operate at that level necessarily, just that when speculative science fiction starts to become less speculative and more real it can have a different impact.

(Hopefully the whole plot point about a virus being spread on purpose by corporations will remain just in fiction tho lol)

The Raging Bile Duct

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Just saying your original Mark Chapman analogy was nonsense and dismissive (not of me but arts and cultures interaction)

Cuties is on my watchlist precisely because I want to see what the director's intention was and not because of how it's been betrayed by a subsection of the internet in thrall to QAnon. I don't see what the problem is with my preference for trying to ascertain the author's original intention was over the white noise that can sometimes be generated by online discussion and debate.

Dismiss my Chapman analogy all you want but I'm not the one getting my knickers in a twist over a plot for a game.

Robert ninja

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Folding Ideas - In Search of a Flat Earth

Dan Olson... child porn uploader.

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

Cuties is on my watchlist

And now you're on a watchlist too

Retr0gamer

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

Dismiss my Chapman analogy all you want but I'm not the one getting my knickers in a twist over a plot for a game.

I'm not either. I'm discussing it.

And I get your first point. But equally it's disingenuous to ignore the response to the film and stifle discussion as if it didn't happen no matter how wrong and ridiculous the QAnon morons are.

Retr0gamer

Robert ninja wrote: »

Dan Olson... child porn uploader.


And now you're on a watchlist too

Reading up on it it looks like some nonsense Gamergaters made up and exaggerated when he tried to get 8chan taken down.

Oh he is an anti gamergater. Did not realise that. Makes sense now.

The Raging Bile Duct

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I'm not either. I'm discussing it.

And I get your first point. But equally it's disingenuous to ignore the response to the film and stifle discussion as if it didn't happen no matter how wrong and ridiculous the QAnon morons are.

How am I stifling discussion? Am I not actually discussing it right now?

The Raging Bile Duct

Robert ninja wrote: »

And now you're on a watchlist too

If I'm not on a watchlist after watching A Serbian Film I think I'll be safe enough with Cuties.

Robert ninja

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Oh he is an anti gamergater. Did not realise that. Makes sense now.

Yeah makes sense that he would dox and distribute child pornography when you consider that.

Retr0gamer

Robert ninja wrote: »

Yeah makes sense that he would dox and distribute child pornography when you consider that.

He didn't though, that's just gamergaters twisting the story because if he did he would be in jail considering they reported him with their so called evidence. Well he did try to Dox 8chan but then again that's pretty much a good thing.

Retr0gamer

Mod Warning: Actually you know what, the Gamergate nonsense stops right here. No more about it after this post as it's threatening to derail an interesting discussion.

Robert ninja

Mod Edit No infractions as I believe the poster genuinely didn't see the warning.

Retr0gamer

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

How am I stifling discussion? Am I not actually discussing it right now?

OK, overzealous with stifling but still think it's wrong to dismiss how a piece of art exists within a cultural context.

gizmo

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

If I'm not on a watchlist after watching A Serbian Film I think I'll be safe enough with Cuties.

You make it through the whole thing?

Robert ninja

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8kZ3HfeqtA

The Raging Bile Duct

gizmo wrote: »

You make it through the whole thing?

Yeah, it's deeply unpleasant.

Greyfox

one armed dwarf wrote: »

It's one of the reasons I stopped enjoying Black Mirror when more and more of the stuff it was predicting started to align with reality in uncomfortable ways.

I love black mirror and loved the episodes that were closer to reality. The more true to life any story is in any medium the better for me.

gizmo

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

Yeah, it's deeply unpleasant.

Aye, toyed with the idea of watching it after seeing Kermode talk about it. Settled with reading the plot on wikipedia and swore then and there I wouldn't do it.