Is it a shame to do a plc course?

MichickoLee

Only asking because my parents are disappointed that I couldnt get into any dublin colleges and was accepted to nuig and ucc. They told me to do a plc and classified plc courses as "idiot courses" (they also think nuig is where dumb people go, cause it's all low points). For me, I see plc courses as a stepping stone to college, a way to overcome my "failure". So yeah, going to do pre-science so I could get into "smart" colleges like UCD or TCD. sigh my life

In general, does majority of people think it's dissapointing to do a plc?

uck51js9zml2yt

MichickoLee wrote: »

Only asking because my parents are disappointed that I couldnt get into any dublin colleges and was accepted to nuig and ucc. They told me to do a plc and classified plc courses as "idiot courses" (they also think nuig is where dumb people go, cause it's all low points). For me, I see plc courses as a stepping stone to college, a way to overcome my "failure". So yeah, going to do pre-science so I could get into "smart" colleges like UCD or TCD. sigh my life

In general, does majority of people think it's dissapointing to do a plc?

On the contrary. PLCs provide a good grounding in a future area of study and make college more meaningful and gives you a headstart on others

Icsics

PLCs are very valuable courses & a pathway to a lot of courses you may not qualify for now.
They are level 5 (mostly) so you are moving up on the framework (6, 7, 8 CAO). Well done on having such a mature approach.

EmzBoBo

I know a fair amount of people that did a nursing plc as they didn't get the points for nursing after the Leaving Cert.
It was a really tough year for them, as they had to get something like 9 out of 10 distinctions in their modules in order to go forward for a Level 8 the following year.
It really focused their minds on whether or not it was the career that they really wanted to go to college for, and they generally found themselves better able for the 1st year of their level 8... it's a great way to get a grounding in the subject before you commit to doing the level 8.
I'd never consider a plc to be an "idiot course"... UCC and NUIG are really good colleges, I would really look into them if you have been offered one of them!

fmpisces

MichickoLee wrote: »

Only asking because my parents are disappointed that I couldnt get into any dublin colleges and was accepted to nuig and ucc. They told me to do a plc and classified plc courses as "idiot courses" (they also think nuig is where dumb people go, cause it's all low points). For me, I see plc courses as a stepping stone to college, a way to overcome my "failure". So yeah, going to do pre-science so I could get into "smart" colleges like UCD or TCD. sigh my life

In general, does majority of people think it's dissapointing to do a plc?

Not at all, OP. As you quite rightly said yourself, PLC courses can be a stepping stone into college. It's not by any means a failure so please don't see it that way. My own son didn't get points he needed in his leaving cert last year and did a PLC course. I did one myself many moons ago. Best of luck

HungryEmperor

Here is my personal experience from it. 4 years ago I missed out on my favored course of History and really didn't want to take my second choice. I really wanted to do my 3rd choice so I decided to take the year and do a PLC in Computers. I ended up loving it and I am now going into my final year of it looking to work in Computer Forensics. I didn't even need to use my points as I qualified for my course through the PLC.

Taking that year to do a PLC and figure out what I actually wanted was the best decision of my life. I have just come back from studying Computer Engineering with Spanish in Spain. I remember this day four years ago being the single worst day of my life, all my plans felt like they fell apart and I was in a bad place, thankfully I can say it all turns around and will work out for the best!

johnnysmack

I've done both 'real college' and plc courses. Personally I find the plc courses better. No shame or 'idiotness' to it at all.

Senna

MichickoLee wrote: »

(they also think nuig is where dumb people go, cause it's all low points)

Sounds like your parents could do with taking a PLC course in not being so ignorant.

Avatar MIA

The expense of going to UCC or NUIG may be prohibitive, but that aside there's no comparison between a UCC/NUIG course compared to a PLC.

A PLC can transition you into a Dublin college and if that's what you do go for it, but all things being equal ... there's life outside the pale.

pconn062

If it makes you feel any better OP, you already sound more mature and level headed than your parents so you do what you think is best. A PLC could be a great option for you.

kev_Makaveli

I did a plc course many years ago. I now have a masters, I am in a job I love, in the industry I studied in.

The leaving certificate is not for everyone and too much emphasis is placed on it.. If a plc gets you where you want to /need to be why is it shameful.

XxMCRxBabyxX

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a PLC but may I ask why aren't you going for your UCC or NUIG course? Is it your parents' opinion or some other reason? Don't turn a course down just because of your parents. If I had done that I wouldn't have benefitted from the opportunities my (10th choice) course gave me that my top course wouldn't have. Even my dad admits that now! Obviously if there's other reasons that's fine.

Do either a PLC or your CAO course, they'll both be great for you. Just don't make your decisions based on ignorant parents! :-)

okatied

I got my 1st choice in college but I considered that I was too young, I had just turned 16, so I did a plc course for a year. Best decision ever. The main thing was that I learned to type properly which has stood to me to this day.
I had a very limited list of courses to choose from. It sounds like you're in Dublin so research different schools etc before deciding. Your closest option might not be the best for you

N1tro

Done a PLC in 2010 , done my degree from 2011 till 2014 , done my masters last year.

I would have never got to where I am today working in a good job without going to a PLC, I done my leaving in 2009 and got around 215 points, and of course I was gutted, but I used a PLC as an opportunity to get extra certification on my journey instead if repeating the lc

Never shun a PLC, as in my opinion , its one of the safest ways to get into college, as if you don't like the field of study, the money wasted is far less to that of a degree course.

Also many people who I knew that slagged of PLCs, dropped out and even had to repeat.

Education is not a race but a marathon.

Do consider a PLC if its right for you, but don't listen to others as myself and the guy above who posted are proof that you can start in a PLC and get a masters

entropi

The problem here is your parent's attitude, not the approach you have taken to this. PLC courses can be very good indeed, and provide a great foundation towards studying at level 6, 7 or 8 in college. I done a PLC course myself, which helped me greatly to get a place in college.

Evenstevens

I work in a third level institution and I wish more students would take a year and do a PLC before going to college rather than taking a course just for the sake of it. PLC students tend to get on really well once in college and like other posters have said it really does focus you to decide what you want to do if you're not sure (I'm not sure if that's the case for you). In the grand scheme of life it's one year and it can make all the difference in the long run. If you go the PLC route just be sure you do a course that is linked with the degree you eventually want to do.

Maybe get your parents to have a word with your Guidance Counsellor if they need reassurance. Sounds like you know your own mind though.

gizmo81

PLC's are great. I know a person now with a BA, MA and PhD.

And it all began with a PLC.

august12

Forget about your parent's disappointment, what do you want? This is about you and not your parents, Galway University has a wonderful reputation, is an NUI, same as Dublin University, lovely city and great experience for a young person, are you happy with the cao offer you got, if so, regardless whether in Galway or UCC, if this is the course you want, grab it. Your parents won't be doing the plc course, why waste a year doing a plc course to gain entry to Dublin if you have enough points to do same course this year in a great University. What is the course you have been offered?

Am not against plc courses, they are a fantastic option if and when needed and a stepping stone to third level qualifications, but in your case, I get the impression plc is not necessary.

MichickoLee

Thanks for cheering me up guys

I wanted to do science in nuig so I'm applying for plc science courses

Evenstevens wrote: »

I work in a third level institution and I wish more students would take a year and do a PLC before going to college rather than taking a course just for the sake of it. PLC students tend to get on really well once in college and like other posters have said it really does focus you to decide what you want to do if you're not sure (I'm not sure if that's the case for you). In the grand scheme of life it's one year and it can make all the difference in the long run. If you go the PLC route just be sure you do a course that is linked with the degree you eventually want to do.

Maybe get your parents to have a word with your Guidance Counsellor if they need reassurance. Sounds like you know your own mind though.

Thanks for the reassurance bro! Yeah I'm going to do plc courses of pre-science anyway

Hulgerx10

Good luck! I also know what it's like having parents with high expectations.

august12

MichickoLee wrote:

I wanted to science in nuig so I'm applying for plc science courses

Did you get science in Galway through CAO today?

NinetyTwoTeam

Your parents are being ridiculous. NUIG and UCC are fine schools and the cost of living there will be slightly lower as well. College will be challenging no matter where you go, trust me. Your parents aren't doing the course, you are. And employers put far less emphasis on the name of your school than people think.

MichickoLee

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a PLC but may I ask why aren't you going for your UCC or NUIG course? Is it your parents' opinion or some other reason? Don't turn a course down just because of your parents. If I had done that I wouldn't have benefitted from the opportunities my (10th choice) course gave me that my top course wouldn't have. Even my dad admits that now! Obviously if there's other reasons that's fine.

Do either a PLC or your CAO course, they'll both be great for you. Just don't make your decisions based on ignorant parents! :-)

It's my parents choice apparently, nuig was my third choice (got 450 in the lc, they were furious with it) but they wanted me to go UCD or TCD which is a 500. My parents weren't even going to let me do science(they think it's useless compare to medicine or engineering)until a friend of their told them it makes lots of money. They can easily pay for my accomadation and fees but I think the reason why is that they just want to brag to their friends in facebook that their child is in TCD doing whatever course etc

NinetyTwoTeam wrote: »

Your parents are being ridiculous. NUIG and UCC are fine schools and the cost of living there will be slightly lower as well. College will be challenging no matter where you go, trust me. Your parents aren't doing the course, you are. And employers put far less emphasis on the name of your school than people think.

Well my parents are the ones with the money so I have no choice but to abide to their orders, they are very able to fund for my accomadation and fees but all they want is to brag that their child was able to go to a "elite" school like TCD.

august12 wrote: »

Did you get science in Galway through CAO today?

Yes I did:D That's why I'm asking

Pugzilla

Sound like ****ty parents to blackmail you like that.
It's your life, not theirs.

Do whatever the f*ck you want to do!

randylonghorn

Don't feel the need to repeat so many valid points mentioned above,
but ...

MichickoLee wrote: »

(they also think nuig is where dumb people go, cause it's all low points).

Points are all about supply and demand.

The population in the West is far lower than in Dublin / the East. You strike me as far too bright for me to have to join the dots for you.

Plus demand for TCD / UCD is driven up by the attitudes of parents / students who are like your parents.

I'm sorry to say it, Michick, but your parents strike me as uninformed snobs.

Your surname isn't O'Carroll-Kelly by any chance?

Try and end up doing something *you* want to do despite them.

august12

MichickoLee wrote:

Well my parents are the ones with the money so I have no choice but to abide to their orders, they are very able to fund for my accomadation and fees but all they want is to brag that their child was able to go to a "elite" school like TCD.

Do you really want to do science?
Would you be happy going to Galway?
Will you be doing the exact same course in Dublin University or TCD after your plc as you would be doing this year in Galway.
If the answer is yes to all these and you are passionate about doing the science course, then I would tell your parents to come down off their high horse and accept the choice you have made. If you feel iffy about the course, then by all means do the plc.
I've never heard anything so immature with regard to your parents, they need a reality check on what matters in life.

XxMCRxBabyxX

MichickoLee wrote: »

It's my parents choice apparently, nuig was my third choice (got 450 in the lc, they were furious with it) but they wanted me to go UCD or TCD which is a 500. My parents weren't even going to let me do science(they think it's useless compare to medicine or engineering)until a friend of their told them it makes lots of money. They can easily pay for my accomadation and fees but I think the reason why is that they just want to brag to their friends in facebook that their child is in TCD doing whatever course etc

From what I've heard NUIG have a good reputation for science. What do your parents expect you to do if you don't get into a Dublin college next year (judging by your posts I reckon that you have a good head and its unlikely that it would happen but just going on the what ifs) - will you have to do another year what ifs?

Surely it's better to show off that your child is in University than in an "idiot" PLC?

Sorry, I remember going through this when I did my Leaving so am possibly a bit sensitive about this. I got 395 and my first choice expected 520! Would you consider sitting down with your parents and talking this through? Take them through the course and compare it to what you would be doing in UCD/TCD. It seems unfair for you to miss out on a course for misguided judgments.

languagenerd

MichickoLee wrote: »

(they also think nuig is where dumb people go, cause it's all low points).

...So yeah, going to do pre-science so I could get into "smart" colleges like UCD or TCD. sigh my life

I don't know much about PLCs but I just want to point out that low points =/= easy course. Points literally just indicate demand for a course. Plenty of courses in TCD and UCD are around the 400 mark, some are lower. My course in TCD was about 470 in 2009 when I started, it was around the 500 mark two years later and it's 409 today. Same content, a lot of the same lecturers, yet 60 points lower than it was a few years ago. It really means nothing - look at the specific course requirements to see how difficult something might be.

There's absolutely no shame in doing a PLC to get you where you want to be, but if you have an offer in NUIG that'll have you qualified quicker, definitely consider it. NUIG, UCD, UCC and Maynooth all have the same awarding body anyway: you'll come out with an NUI degree regardless.
(Though it sounds like your parents who need to realise all that, not you... good luck whichever route you go )

august12

MichickoLee wrote:

It's my parents choice apparently, nuig was my third choice (got 450 in the lc, they were furious with it) but they wanted me to go UCD or TCD which is a 500. My parents weren't even going to let me do science(they think it's useless compare to medicine or engineering)until a friend of their told them it makes lots of money. They can easily pay for my accomadation and fees but I think the reason why is that they just want to brag to their friends in facebook that their child is in TCD doing whatever course etc

I think you need to sit down with mammy and daddy and have a grown up conversation with them, are they capable of understanding an adult conversation, after reading the above, I wonder. Wouldn't it be great to show them this thread. It might make them realise how immature and childish they are. You have a wonderful LC result, they should be really proud. If science in Galway is what you want, then accept it.

MouseTail

MichickoLee wrote: »

Well my parents are the ones with the money so I have no choice but to abide to their orders, they are very able to fund for my accomadation and fees but all they want is to brag that their child was able to go to a "elite" school like TCD.

You cant be that sure of your parents financial situation, they simply may not have the finances, or budgeted for you living at home and studying in Dublin. You really should have a frank and adult discussion with them.

EoghanIRL

The only shame here would be not doing the course which you want to do.

Don't settle OP, you'll only regret it.

Outkast_IRE

I did a plc course and carried on to a level 8 degree.

I finished top of the entire engineering faculty. If you take it seriously its just another stepping stone in life.

If you only knew the drop out rates from the universities it would show you that the CAO is a guessing game for everyone, for some they get it right a massive percentage get it wrong and must take a different less direct path through life, often coming out the better for it.

siebey123

MichickoLee wrote: »

Only asking because my parents are disappointed that I couldnt get into any dublin colleges and was accepted to nuig and ucc. They told me to do a plc and classified plc courses as "idiot courses" (they also think nuig is where dumb people go, cause it's all low points). For me, I see plc courses as a stepping stone to college, a way to overcome my "failure". So yeah, going to do pre-science so I could get into "smart" colleges like UCD or TCD. sigh my life

In general, does majority of people think it's dissapointing to do a plc?

Heya! I'm approaching the end of my PLC, but I wasn't planning to do it originally, it kind of just happened and I can fully say that I do not regret doing it.

I actually started college last year and left, and my course just wasn't right for me. Honestly, I didn't realise how unprepared I was for college until I did my PLC. It's made me a much more confident person and I feel a lot happier going back into college. Honestly, PLCs can really shape you, if you allow them to and it can serve as stable grounding for whatever course you wish to do in the future. You can really perfect a lot of academic skills such as assignment work, researching, exam study skills etc and I truly believe you'll be glad you did it once you reach college.

PLC courses are certainly not for idiots!

Anymore questions don't hesitate to ask

dev100

MichickoLee wrote:

Only asking because my parents are disappointed that I couldnt get into any dublin colleges and was accepted to nuig and ucc. They told me to do a plc and classified plc courses as "idiot courses" (they also think nuig is where dumb people go, cause it's all low points). For me, I see plc courses as a stepping stone to college, a way to overcome my "failure". So yeah, going to do pre-science so I could get into "smart" colleges like UCD or TCD. sigh my life

Where are you from ? If you are from Dublin and come from a working class back ground it may explain why your parents want you to study in Dublin ie it may be to mask the fact they may not be able to afford for you to live away from home.

I was in a situation where I was told it's either commute to a Dublin college or uni or get a job as the money situation wasn't there for me to live away from home. I was never really academic and went on to do an apprenticeship

If it's none of the above its down to snobbery or ignorance on your parents part . Are your parents highly educated themselves ? Sometimes parents if they ve never been thru the college system don't understand sometimes achieving extremely high points is tough and not everyone gets to the top universities



My advice is do what you want to do and be assertive about it if you want to go to cork and can afford then go . If you really want to go to Dublin and it takes a plc course to achieve that then do that . There's absolutely nothing wrong with plc courses they help a good number of people achieve their goals in life . Only a certain of people can get into TCD or UCD and the likes and that's just life. Some people take a longer journey for education and sometimes it's down to economic s or not having the desired points etc .

carefulnowted

Your parents don't understand the points system. UCD/TCD are high points because the population of Dublin is massive, and many students will stay in Dublin instead of moving. NUIG/UCC/NUIM etc etc are perfectly good colleges; for your parents to disregard them because the points are slightly lower is ignorance on their part. In fact, some ITs have excellent reputations for specific courses, and are regarded as better for that course than universities.

Your parents need a reality check on how the CAO works. Do the course YOU want to do and you won't regret it.

MichickoLee

okatied wrote: »

I got my 1st choice in college but I considered that I was too young, I had just turned 16, so I did a plc course for a year. Best decision ever. The main thing was that I learned to type properly which has stood to me to this day.
I had a very limited list of courses to choose from. It sounds like you're in Dublin so research different schools etc before deciding. Your closest option might not be the best for you

Omg I'm 16 too!! Gonna turn 17 at september, I live in Meath actually What are you doing now may i ask?:D

dev100 wrote: »

Where are you from ? If you are from Dublin and come from a working class back ground it may explain why your parents want you to study in Dublin ie it may be to mask the fact they may not be able to afford for you to live away from home.

I was in a situation where I was told it's either commute to a Dublin college or uni or get a job as the money situation wasn't there for me to live away from home. I was never really academic and went on to do an apprenticeship

If it's none of the above its down to snobbery or ignorance on your parents part . Are your parents highly educated themselves ? Sometimes parents if they ve never been thru the college system don't understand sometimes achieving extremely high points is tough and not everyone gets to the top universities



My advice is do what you want to do and be assertive about it if you want to go to cork and can afford then go . If you really want to go to Dublin and it takes a plc course to achieve that then do that . There's absolutely nothing wrong with plc courses they help a good number of people achieve their goals in life . Only a certain of people can get into TCD or UCD and the likes and that's just life. Some people take a longer journey for education and sometimes it's down to economic s or not having the desired points etc .

My parents are asian and moved here like 20 years ago, they are both nurses and I'm an only child. They are your sterotypical asians that has high expectations and think high grades gets you anywhere in life...Alas this is my life:o

irishman86

MichickoLee wrote: »

Only asking because my parents are disappointed that I couldnt get into any dublin colleges and was accepted to nuig and ucc. They told me to do a plc and classified plc courses as "idiot courses" (they also think nuig is where dumb people go, cause it's all low points). For me, I see plc courses as a stepping stone to college, a way to overcome my "failure". So yeah, going to do pre-science so I could get into "smart" colleges like UCD or TCD. sigh my life

In general, does majority of people think it's dissapointing to do a plc?

Honestly your parents havent a clue what they are talking about
Pretension of the highest order

Avatar MIA

MichickoLee wrote: »

My parents are asian and moved here like 20 years ago, they are both nurses and I'm an only child. They are your sterotypical asians that has high expectations and think high grades gets you anywhere in life...Alas this is my life:o

Tell them you're ashamed they never made it to be doctors, especially your dad... Only joking by the way.

You're only sixteen, no harm doing the PLC course. Good luck!

august12

Would agree here now that I've seen how old you are, a PLC course might be worth investigating but these might all be filled now for September especially a science course, I see in another post, you mention your parents are not financially in a position to fund your education away from Dublin, could you get a weekend job to help with finances. You also query if it possible to transfer from Galway to DCU, yes it is but places are limited and sometimes might not even happen given someone else needs to vacate a place in order for you to get one, but given there is a fairly high drop out rate after first year, then this may be possible. Usually a transfer takes place after completion of first year and generally you would need to have achieved a fairly high result in first year as competition for transfer places would be high. You would need to contact the registrar of the faculty in dcu to discuss this.
Anyway, you have till next Monday to make up your mind, but if cao offered you science in Galway, then it would be very hard to refuse it, have you any accommodation organised?

jeonahr

MichickoLee wrote: »

My parents are asian and moved here like 20 years ago, they are both nurses and I'm an only child. They are your sterotypical asians that has high expectations and think high grades gets you anywhere in life...Alas this is my life:o

Not to add to the stereotype but my parents are Asian and the exact same. They expect me to get certain grades and aim for certain courses. Luckily for them my interest already coincides with what they want me to do but if it didn't I'd be putting up a fight.
If I were you, I'd explain things to them concerning how cao actually works, the different courses and colleges available and how not every single prestigious job only lands within the few handful of careers that they say it does.

Hulgerx10

MichickoLee wrote: »

Omg I'm 16 too!! Gonna turn 17 at september, I live in Meath actually What are you doing now may i ask?:D




My parents are asian and moved here like 20 years ago, they are both nurses and I'm an only child. They are your sterotypical asians that has high expectations and think high grades gets you anywhere in life...Alas this is my life:o

Also the son of Asian immigrants here (though I suspect a different type of Asian), I feel the pain

My parents also hold very unrealistic expectations. I think it's important to be honest with them. I can't really say anything else that nobody has already said, but you do need to assert yourself. Speak your mind and be honest, they do want the best for you, and the best for you is what you would like to do. :cool:

covfefe98

No it's not shameful and it depends on the course your going for. Not every course is covered by doing a PLC and I would be applying for them right now if it were applicable in my case

spurious

Your goal is to get to the airport.

You can go by taxi, bus, hitch or walk. No matter which way you do it, you will still be at the airport with a lot of other people. Some ways of getting there are more interesting than others. Some teach you a great deal about yourself and who you are. Sometimes the longer, more difficult way is more worthwhile.

The people from the airline really couldn't be bothered how you got there. Once you are at the airport, you're at the airport.

Bubble6

This country has a stigma that if you don't go straight to college you're somehow a "let down". This is absolutely ridiculous and the stigma plagues students to rush themselves into college without thinking things through thoroughly. PLC are incredibly useful for those who not just struggled to acquire the points but also those who struggled under the sheer pressure of the Leaving Cert exams. The people, mostly other students, who will look down at you because are doing a PLC course or even taking a gap year to recover are not worth your time and are, well, pretentious f***s tbh.

As someone who has scored above average in this years LC, I'm taking the year off to find a course I actually want and not the course my teachers proposed/beckoned me to do. It's your life and you will have to live with the (short-term) consequences, not them.

MichickoLee

august12 wrote: »

Would agree here now that I've seen how old you are, a PLC course might be worth investigating but these might all be filled now for September especially a science course, I see in another post, you mention your parents are not financially in a position to fund your education away from Dublin, could you get a weekend job to help with finances. You also query if it possible to transfer from Galway to DCU, yes it is but places are limited and sometimes might not even happen given someone else needs to vacate a place in order for you to get one, but given there is a fairly high drop out rate after first year, then this may be possible. Usually a transfer takes place after completion of first year and generally you would need to have achieved a fairly high result in first year as competition for transfer places would be high. You would need to contact the registrar of the faculty in dcu to discuss this.
Anyway, you have till next Monday to make up your mind, but if cao offered you science in Galway, then it would be very hard to refuse it, have you any accommodation organised?

Yes, I found a room in a appartement with decent rent. I am going forward to science in nuig apparently:D

august12

MichickoLee wrote:

Yes, I found a room in a appartement with decent rent. I am going forward to science in nuig apparently

If you have accommodation arranged and are happy with your course, then all is good, remember to contact Dublin college with regards to transferring back. There is a cut off date for this.

MichickoLee

august12 wrote: »

If you have accommodation arranged and are happy with your course, then all is good, remember to contact Dublin college with regards to transferring back. There is a cut off date for this.

Is the cut off date in the 1st of July? And what is the DCU or maynooth email about transferring( i can't seem to find it)?:(. And are they going to allow me to transfer based on my leaving cert points or my scores in first year nuig?

august12

http://www4.dcu.ie/prospective/livesite/transfer_student.shtml

https://www.maynoothuniversity.ie/study-maynooth/undergraduate-studies/how-apply

X6.430macman

Do your parents realise that points is absolutely nothing to do with level of difficulty

GalwayGrrrrrl

I read something recently about colleges only keeping a certain number of places for students applying with a PLC and that competition is very tough, even if you get top marks in your PLC. This might have been just for nursing but it's something to look at.

randylonghorn

It's true for all in terms of numbers of reserved places which are offered on a competitive basis, though I suspect the competition for nursing is probably among the toughest.