Zander in Lough Mask and concerted effort against pike.

kildare lad

According to oughterard angling association, theres been a zander caught in Mask. No picture funnily enough. I find it hard to believe too. In this day and age where everyone has a camera phone, to not have photographic evidence is hard to believe.I think theres element in the west that are trying to drive a bigger wedge between pikers and trout men over gill netting.

On their facebook page recently they showed a dead pike with a salmon parr in its mouth, funnily enough the parr was the wrong way round as pike swallow fish head first. In another picture they showed a pike cut open with a trout inside it. As they hold catch and kill comps involving pike i wonder how many pike they cut open to find the trout?

Why is there such an ingrained hatred of pike among certain sectors of the trout fishing community.

ardinn

Whole lotta war that I dont want to get into right there!!!

Whats been going on on FB is beyond farcical on both sides!

kildare lad

I thik theres a lot more scaremongering on the trout side tbh

rpmcmurphy

Has to be nonsense if no picture. As previously mentioned scaremongering by the anti trout brigade. I met an angler recently who had heard rumours of catfish in lough oughter. Again, nonsense. If anyone is considering the introduction of invasive fish species into our aquatic ecosystems then they need a serous talking to. There are no winners if that happens.

pheasant tail

That's nonsense, that crowd is always at it. Anyone with some sense knows exactly why they've done this and what their hoping for. Says a lot about them to be honest

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

kildare lad wrote: »

According to oughterard angling association, theres been a zander caught in Mask. No picture funnily enough. I find it hard to believe too. In this day and age where everyone has a camera phone, to not have photographic evidence is hard to believe.I think theres element in the west that are trying to drive a bigger wedge between pikers and trout men over gill netting.

On their facebook page recently they showed a dead pike with a salmon parr in its mouth, funnily enough the parr was the wrong way round as pike swallow fish head first. In another picture they showed a pike cut open with a trout inside it. As they hold catch and kill comps involving pike i wonder how many pike they cut open to find the trout?

Why is there such an ingrained hatred of pike among certain sectors of the trout fishing community.

rpmcmurphy wrote: »

Has to be nonsense if no picture. As previously mentioned scaremongering by the anti trout brigade. I met an angler recently who had heard rumours of catfish in lough oughter. Again, nonsense. If anyone is considering the introduction of invasive fish species into our aquatic ecosystems then they need a serous talking to. There are no winners if that happens.

We don't have these issues around here thank goodness. But, not being party to any of this conversation, I'm confused. Is this rumour anti pike or anti trout?

kildare lad

its being put out by the anti pike people. I think theyre doing it to get more support for pike management on the lakes.

blackpearl

kildare lad wrote: »

its being put out by the anti pike people. I think theyre doing it to get more support for pike management on the lakes.

O get a life would you.

kildare lad

blackpearl wrote: »

O get a life would you.

why??

blackpearl

It would fit you better if you got on with your fishing and forget about the politics boring boring, s--t happens and the 20 or so views you will get will make no difference ,same ould s--t goes on about sheelin by the anti trout crowd and it makes no difference nobody is listening so get out their and go fishing it will help you relax and forget about all this bull.

kildare lad

This is an angling forum and its for fishing topics to be debated about.

Reedsie

Lets be honest the Oughterard Angling Association are never going to be taken too seriously.

demanufactured

blackpearl wrote: »

It would fit you better if you got on with your fishing and forget about the politics boring boring, s--t happens and the 20 or so views you will get will make no difference ,same ould s--t goes on about sheelin by the anti trout crowd and it makes no difference nobody is listening so get out their and go fishing it will help you relax and forget about all this bull.

What "anti trout crowd"?

twin_beacon

The story is 100% fake. Apparently IFI were not informed about this "capture" until a few days after the initial report on facebook.

demanufactured

A lot of nonsense by the local trout groups...
If only they understood how an ecosystem works.
You don't hear all round anglers who go for pike / trout / coarse / sea blaming any species for anything... Because there is no need to.

coolwings

I don't know if it's nonsense.

I mean, if I want to fish for the biggest pike, that would suggest not going to a place where zander are also present competing with the pike. A population of large carp in my hypothetical big pike lake would also lock up much biomass in a body size too large for pike to eat. So, for this (specialist) big pike fishing trip I want a lake with pike, and lots of smaller fodder fish, up and including the biggest size pike can eat, but no larger than that. No zander, no carp (or if they are there better if they are stunted). Which makes me, anti carp ? No! Of course not!

Likewise if I want to bet on the horses I don't go to the dog track. But I'm not anti greyhound if I do that.

What this is about is jealousy. Everybody wants their favourite fish put into the other peoples' lakes. And some do it illicitly.
Let's talk about why the char have gone from Corrib ... roach introduced. Do I hate roach? Nope! But the people who put them into Corrib wiped out a whole species in that lake. That was an evil act, and they were too ignorant or bad minded to not introduce the alien species. Let's call it a moronic act of vandalism. Like setting fire to a forest. But even trees will grow back in time. The char won't because they were a special sub specie type evolved to suit Corrib.

So what about pike and trout? if there is real honesty the pikers will admit that pike eat trout. They consume other fish species too, but they eat trout as well. OK that shouldn't be a problem, after all pike are in Corrib and Mask a very long time, and the trout didn't go away.
But now we add in fertilised land around the catchment, interference in spawning streams, and lots of other stressor effects present now but only arrived during the past several decades. Particularly roach competition by eating insect life.
The trout have less flies to eat, so they "go down" and eat roach instead. They become fewer and possibly bigger, and a lot harder to catch with the most aesthetically pleasing way to catch them, fly fishing.
Some trout anglers are happy to troll, but the majority want to fly fish, bring the trout up on top, and see the take. I don't hold that against them.
So the trout fishers want to improve the trout's lot, and they look for everything they can blame. Pike are right there in the identification parade and they think they can do something about pike. They can't get introduced species back out. They're doing what they can.

Here's a question: Why are pike anglers so against the trout anglers? Might it be because they covet the lakes the trout anglers fish and control? There are mixed fisheries not too far away. I understand the reputation for big pike that some trout lakes have. Some of that is mythical and some real. But it feeds the jealousy.

Everybody wants more and the other guy's stuff is easier to take than making a good water gone bad water good again. They all know that deep down inside.

And woven in and around all that we have these missionaries introducing stuff, zebra mussels in unclean boats and nets, species of fish unknown in Ireland, whatever. They just make the whole mess worse.

Why not blame pollution for deterioration of all waters? But we want our jobs so we can earn money to buy the fishing gear and go fishing. Society did the polluting, or let it happen through inaction, and we are part of society ourselves. Nobody is perfectly clean in this.

But, if I, we, you, are honest, jealousy and wanting of the other guys' water has a lot to do with this.

That factor's not about to go away anytime soon.

Now lest you think this is giving the trout anglers a pass I want to point out something really bad and obvious they do and have been doing since forever. They kill the big ones, and return the little ones. In breeding terms that is like a breeder of racehorses shooting the horses that win races, and breeding from the losers, the small and weak. Give it a few generations and all his horses are going to be weak, slow, and disease prone. Dumb!

Some day these guys will wake up. And if they must take some, there is a surplus after all, they take the middle ones, releasing small and largest to grow and breed better stock. After they do that their trout fishing will improve amazingly, pike or no pike, won't be stopping such an improvement as that would bring. But many of them would rather blame the pike than put that four pounder back. So I'm not holding my breath for that either.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

coolwings wrote: »

Now lest you think this is giving the trout anglers a pass I want to point out something really bad and obvious they do and have been doing since forever. They kill the big ones, and return the little ones. In breeding terms that is like a breeder of racehorses shooting the horses that win races, and breeding from the losers, the small and weak. Give it a few generations and all his horses are going to be weak, slow, and disease prone. Dumb!

Some day these guys will wake up. And if they must take some, there is a surplus after all, they take the middle ones, releasing small and largest to grow and breed better stock. After they do that their trout fishing will improve amazingly, pike or no pike, won't be stopping such an improvement as that would bring. But many of them would rather blame the pike than put that four pounder back. So I'm not holding my breath for that either.

Hence why many Trout clubs have rules as to what trout can be kept. Our local club, for instance, allows only fish between 11 and 14 inches to be kept. Everything else must be released. Personally, I haven't kept a Brown Trout in over 30 years but the rule at least leaves the bigger fish to breed. This should be implemented everywhere for most species.

demanufactured

Everett Scruffy Physician wrote: »

Hence why many Trout clubs have rules as to what trout can be kept. Our local club, for instance, allows only fish between 11 and 14 inches to be kept. Everything else must be released. Personally, I haven't kept a Brown Trout in over 30 years but the rule at least leaves the bigger fish to breed. This should be implemented everywhere for most species.

Clubs don't control limits... Bye laws do

blackpearl

You must of never been in a club most of the clubs i am in have their own bag limits.

demanufactured

Been in a good few... If they are creating their own limits and ignoring by laws then they are in breach of the law.

Bikerguy

demanufactured wrote: »

Been in a good few... If they are creating their own limits and ignoring by laws then they are in breach of the law.

They clubs are general applying harder limits... aka lets say no spining...no certain bites aka maggots or so.... or even limiting further bag limits for the day.

The irish fisheries rules are for general lakes owned and maintaned by the state...not for private owned wateries....

Just my 2c....


Second killing pikes as the natural predator is nonsense in my book.... the food chain should have been maintaned... if you take of it plenty of trout then ofc pike will overtake... but removing the pike will cause even further issues....

Bogwoppit

Bikerguy wrote: »

Second killing pikes as the natural predator is nonsense in my book.... the food chain should have been maintaned... if you take of it plenty of trout then ofc pike will overtake... but removing the pike will cause even further issues....

This only applies if the pike are native to the water.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

demanufactured wrote: »

Been in a good few... If they are creating their own limits and ignoring by laws then they are in breach of the law.

Clubs imposing stricter conditions on their members, on their waters, are breaking no bye-laws.

blackpearl

demanufactured wrote: »

Been in a good few... If they are creating their own limits and ignoring by laws then they are in breach of the law.

Not if the limits are less that what the law states,and the size limit is more of what law states.

gumbo1

blackpearl wrote: »

Not if the limits are less that what the law states,and the size limit is more of what law states.

Ever hear of someone going by the name Shane Crossan? Just curious.

What clubs are you a member of where this practice takes place?

Mr Bumble

The main issue here seems to be the introduction of pike into the Owenriff system, which was pike free.
You have to say one thing for the Oughterard people. They're running an effective campaign in broadcasting a message - agree or disagree.. Lesson there for everyone.

kildare lad

Mr Bumble wrote: »

The main issue here seems to be the introduction of pike into the Owenriff system, which was pike free.
You have to say one thing for the Oughterard people. They're running an effective campaign in broadcasting a message - agree or disagree.. Lesson there for everyone.

I think its more scare mongering to be honest. They come across as ignorant and backwards in my opinion. A recent example,was a picture on there page of a fella holding an 8lb brown trout, someone commented under the picture " was the fish returned" to which the club replied, no he kept it to be smoked.

On one hand, they're going on about lough corrib trout are being eatin by all the pike, yet on the other hand theyve no problem with someone knocking an 8lb fish on the head for the pan. You couldnt make it up. Ive no problem with people keeping fish for the table, but killing the big ones doesnt make sense, as theyll lay a lot more eggs than a smaller fish. Its like something out of a Father Ted.

If they cared for the protection of trout so much they wouldnt be knocking them over the head, everytime they catch one.

blackpearl

gumbo1 wrote: »

Ever hear of someone going by the name Shane Crossan? Just curious.

What clubs are you a member of where this practice takes place?

2 clubs in the northeast and one in the midlands,cant say i ever heard of the man sorry.

blackpearl

kildare lad wrote: »

I think its more scare mongering to be honest. They come across as ignorant and backwards in my opinion. A recent example,was a picture on there page of a fella holding an 8lb brown trout, someone commented under the picture " was the fish returned" to which the club replied, no he kept it to be smoked.

On one hand, they're going on about lough corrib trout are being eatin by all the pike, yet on the other hand theyve no problem with someone knocking an 8lb fish on the head for the pan. You couldnt make it up. Ive no problem with people keeping fish for the table, but killing the big ones doesnt make sense, as theyll lay a lot more eggs than a smaller fish. Its like something out of a Father Ted.

If they cared for the protection of trout so much they wouldnt be knocking them over the head, everytime they catch one.

You talk about father ted i am afriad that makes you look like father Dougal the best spawners of trout are between 2 and 4 lb the big ones as you call them 8 plus may lay a lot of eggs but most of 50 % of them are infertile it is the same as a woman in her 70s having a baby so the killing of these big trout are no harm its the ones between 2 and 4 that should be released if your into that sort of thing.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

gumbo1 wrote: »

Ever hear of someone going by the name Shane Crossan? Just curious.

What clubs are you a member of where this practice takes place?

No, never heard of him. I'm not naming my clubs here, but suffice to say they do impose such limits.

Edit. Tried a Google on him but just found an arts director and a CEO of a promotional products company. None the wiser.

coolwings

blackpearl wrote: »

..... the big ones as you call them 8 plus may lay a lot of eggs but most of 50 % of them are infertile it is the same as a woman in her 70s having a baby so the killing of these big trout are no harm its the ones between 2 and 4 that should be released if your into that sort of thing.

I beg to disagree and suspect you may be in a mild form of denial to justify the taking of the big fish.
Regardless of the numbers of eggs, the older fish and the eggs they produce embody several gene preferences longevity (to live that long), disease resistance (similar to above), and the ability to grow past the average size that exists for "large" in that place.

I propose that your post could be reworded like this:

The big ones as you call them 8 plus may lay a lot of eggs but most of 50 % of them are infertile it is the same as a woman in her 70s having a baby so the killing of these big trout are no harm ....
so these eggs are more precious due to the fact that a large percentage every future large trout are contained within those relatively small number of eggs at the present moment.

You see what I'm doing? Trying to convey the idea that the genetic stock of a most valued sub strain (fast growth big fish) can be inside a quite small number of large females near or at the top of the population pyramid, and are targeted specifically by anglers.
This is not a new idea. Every livestock breeder selects the livestock to produce stronger stock next generation. The farmer gets the best bull he can afford. Race winning horses command huge cover fees. These are very hard and realistic people who pay these fees. They know what has real value. Even gardeners select the strongest and biggest seeds to grow from, and consume the rest as food.

Slot limits (both upper and lower size protection ) are the way forwards. The uptake is surprising slow. I suppose old ideas have to die off in the heads of the older anglers who are often also the most expert catchers of fish.