Season 7 Episode 6 "Beyond the Wall" - "Book readers" - Spoilers from post 2

xper

martingriff wrote: »

I have not seen the episode scanned the last 2 pages before realizing but in relation to LF do not forget he commands an army that saved them against the Boltons so they need to be careful. He may have made alliances with others in winterfell so if Sansa and Arya suspect anything they would have to be careful. Maybe Brienne leaving is a ploy

I think LF would have more chance of support from a few of the disgruntled northerners and that's not saying much. Lord Royce would be quite happy to see the back of LF who he clearly has no time for but who he has been forced/tricked into serving thanks to LF's manipulation of young Lord Arryn.

Hrududu wrote: »

Why on earth would Sansa send Brienne off to Kings Landing? Especially since she just had that chat with Littlefinger. Unless she was plotting to kill Arya and didn't want Brienne around to stop it. But its a strange storyline. Arya used to be such a great character and now she's just the boogieman for Sansa.

Maybe Sansa sent Brienne off precisely because of that conversation. He's trying to use Brienne's potential split loyalty to cause chaos. Sansa counteracts that by removing that particular chess piece from the board. Your move, LF.

As isolated as she is currently at Winterfell with no one to turn to, it is not credible that Sansa has just suddenly forgetten the harsh lesson she learned and that she was warning Jon et al repeatedly that LF can't be trusted. I am sure she is playing The Game with him but its at Champions League level and we know how it turns out for the loser.

I am not sure if Arya is colluding with Sansa or is a lone player at the moment. I've always hoped that her storyline is going somewhere other than the rather obvious fate of becoming a violence-loving lost soul. The "I am a Stark of Winterfell" followed by the red wedding revenge followed by the Hotpie-provoked aboutface suggested a straightforward return to the good guys' team but her characterisation has completely regressed since she walked back in those gates. I fear GRRM's wife will kill him!

Riddle101

Last week people were speculating what Arya would do with the Valyrian dagger. Some even suggested that it could be used against the Littlefinger or the White Walkers. But now Sansa has it. Maybe i'm looking too much into this, but it looks like Sansa will be the one to use it. So I guess it's possible that Sansa will be the one to kill Littlefinger and not Arya as people have speculated. She could be the one to finish Littlefinger instead. Hell she may even kill a White Walker herself.

pinkypinky

I thought it was a great episode, and to my group of 4 who watch every week, none of us expected that the Night King wanted a dragon. I'm amazed at everyone saying this was so obvious - were there hints before?

Frustrated by the Sansa/Arya stuff but really hope they are somehow secretly together working against Littlefinger - but why would they need that scene in private to be so antagonistic if this was the case?

I've been happy enough with the speeded up timelines but did feel like the Eastwatch/beyond the wall/Gendry's marathon run/Dany & dragons appearance was a tad ridiculous. But since we're watching something entirely made up with fictional animals and magic, I'm just going to let it go.

There's a lot of stuff left hanging with only 1 episode to go:

We still don't know where Sam and Gilly are bound for. I expect the R+L=J pay off will be next season now.
We haven't seen Grey Worm and the Unsullied in a few episodes.
Ditto Euron
Ditto Yara
Ditto Bran (whose whole arch is just irritating now)

Showdown at Kings Landing - surely Cersei will just say "sure I've got my own undead guy, had one ages ago".

With one dragon gone to the dark side, perhaps the end game was always to only have 2 dragon riders: Dany and Jon.
I thought their scene together was great: really well acted and heart-felt.

Overall, 2 thumbs up.

awec

Where is Ghost?

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Daith

....... wrote: »

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Ghost not going South makes sense.

However there should have been a scene where Jon "tells" Ghost to protect Sansa.

Or when Sansa, Arya and Bran are going through Winterfell, having Ghost beside them would have been perfect.

Or Ghost chilling with Bran at the Godswood.

So yes, lots of scenes that he should be in but we get an offhand "he's waiting for Jon" from Sansa.

J. Marston

Even a background shot of him curled up by the fire in Winterfell would suffice.

Show us the wolf!

The Hound Gone Wild

The Direwolves are expensive to animate apparently. The dragons and Nymeria have taken up the CGI budget.

2ndcoming

I have no issue with "teleportation" or (for the most part) the overarching plot, but I do have a major issue with the shortening of the season to seven episodes.

It seems this decision has resulted in the series being clipped to only enormous set pieces or quieter scenes showing massive plot progression interspersed with short scenes of either jokey, cool guy dialogue or blatant fan service.

What annoys me most of all is the three hours they've cut isn't the expensive part of production. Well written dialogue in dimly lit rooms can be done in a day or two for nothing compared to the weeks of filming and hundreds of man hours of post-production the huge set pieces take, but those quiet scenes are what give the show depth and make the set pieces worthwhile!

I guess a bigger budget can make your dragons look cool as f**k but it can't write a smarter script for you.

In a funny way, this has actually restored my interest in seeing the books finished. I'd come into this season thinking will I even bother reading the final books now if the show resolves everything over these last two seasons, but after seeing the rush job they've done on it all so far I'm firmly back in the book camp now, hopefully to see some proper plot progression and the real fleshed out story. Maybe it was GRRM's masterplan all along.

wacko98

For a few seconds I was fully convinced that Jon Snow was going to be turned into a WW, and it'd be Ice vs Fire (Jon vs Dany).

Can we all agree that The Hound was really stupid to throw rocks at the wights? Wonder why Jon or someone else didn't tell him to stop.. unreal episode though, anyone have any clues for what'll happen in the finale? Hopefully some sort of shock!

The Hound Gone Wild

wacko98 wrote: »

Anyone have any clues for what'll happen in the finale? Hopefully some sort of shock!

C'mon. Stevie wonder can tell where this season is going. The NK is going to use Viserion to melt the wall.

Also:

The fellowship will bring The one Wight to rule them all to the council of Elrond (king's landing). Somebody (gimli) will attempt to destroy the ring (Wight) The ring survives. Everyone will be shocked but will agree the ring must be destroyed. Boromir (Cercei) will join the fellowship but will have an ulterior motive, to use the war of ring to Gondor's (house lanister's) advantage. :pac:

Mc Love

The Hound Gone Wild wrote: »

C'mon. Stevie wonder can tell where this season is going. The NK is going to use Viserion to melt the wall.

Also:

The fellowship will bring The one Wight to rule them all to the council of Elrond (king's landing). Somebody (gimli) will attempt to destroy the ring (Wight) The ring survives. Everyone will be shocked but will agree the ring must be destroyed. Boromir (Cercei) will join the fellowship but will have an ulterior motive, to use the war of ring to Gondor's (house lanister's) advantage. :pac:

Bringing the wight to Kings landing and now I have the "we're taking the hobbit to Eisengard" song in my head!

turnikett1

2ndcoming wrote: »

I have no issue with "teleportation" or (for the most part) the overarching plot, but I do have a major issue with the shortening of the season to seven episodes.

It seems this decision has resulted in the series being clipped to only enormous set pieces or quieter scenes showing massive plot progression interspersed with short scenes of either jokey, cool guy dialogue or blatant fan service.

What annoys me most of all is the three hours they've cut isn't the expensive part of production. Well written dialogue in dimly lit rooms can be done in a day or two for nothing compared to the weeks of filming and hundreds of man hours of post-production the huge set pieces take, but those quiet scenes are what give the show depth and make the set pieces worthwhile!

I guess a bigger budget can make your dragons look cool as f**k but it can't write a smarter script for you.

In a funny way, this has actually restored my interest in seeing the books finished. I'd come into this season thinking will I even bother reading the final books now if the show resolves everything over these last two seasons, but after seeing the rush job they've done on it all so far I'm firmly back in the book camp now, hopefully to see some proper plot progression and the real fleshed out story. Maybe it was GRRM's masterplan all along.

I feel exactly the same. Before season 7 was aired the hype was real and my bubble for reading the books had most definitely burst. Now I want Winds of Winter more than ever!

What really disappoints me is how easily avoidable the poor quality of this season could've been. As you say, it does not take much money or effort to have dialogue scenes. A couple of dialogue scenes putting some of the plotholes into perspective could've reeeeally helped. An extra 3 episodes to flesh it out just that bit more and this season could've been amazing.

I won't lie, I watched the finale trailer and I am excited. But as I've said before I'm just excited to know what the major plot developments are - as written by GRRM. There are literally times in this season where I fast forwarded a little bit because the current filler scene I was watching was just way too cringey When you think about it, season 7, major plot developments aside, is literally fan fiction. D&D are fans who proposed to adapt the show. Now they find themselves writing it. As has been discussed the fault lies with GRRM. As to why he's taken so goddamn long I guess we'll never know.

Out of curiosity has this happened before? Where a TV adaptation has surpassed the written form and the producers find themselves writing the end of book!? It's a pretty unique situation!

5starpool

All this needs now is for Cersei to try and ally herself with the night king somehow to really kill the show. It's almost like the writers decided after 6 seasons that they were sick of it and just said 'feck it, let's just cram everything together and finish this'.

I'm still generally enjoying it, but it has taken a shark jumping turn recently. Still better than all that Mereen crap though.

Frisbee

I really enjoyed that episode.
One thing stood out to me that I can't believe no-one has mentioned yet though. The Jon / Dany scene on the boat at the very end she goes 'you better get some rest' or something to that effect and he just closes his eyes immediately.

I broke my hole laughing. It was like something a kid would do to pretend to be asleep when you are trying to get them to go to bed. He was just shy of squinting one eye open after a few seconds to see if she bought it.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

After reading this thread, I have to wonder to myself why some of you even bother watching the show. If you dislike it so much, why bother?

wacko98

The Hound Gone Wild wrote: »

C'mon. Stevie wonder can tell where this season is going. The NK is going to use Viserion to melt the wall.

Also:

The fellowship will bring The one Wight to rule them all to the council of Elrond (king's landing). Somebody (gimli) will attempt to destroy the ring (Wight) The ring survives. Everyone will be shocked but will agree the ring must be destroyed. Boromir (Cercei) will join the fellowship but will have an ulterior motive, to use the war of ring to Gondor's (house lanister's) advantage. :pac:

A small part of me is thinking "this is Game of Thrones" though and is hoping for a major shock.

turnikett1

Mathias Wooden Machinist wrote: »

After reading this thread, I have to wonder to myself why some of you even bother watching the show. If you dislike it so much, why bother?

Who has said they dislike it? I've seen people on various forums say "well if you hate it so much then don't watch it" when the reality is no one says they dislike the show. You can criticize something and still enjoy it. Some people seem very upset that others have their criticisms of season 7.

blackwhite

pinkypinky wrote: »

There's a lot of stuff left hanging with only 1 episode to go:

We still don't know where Sam and Gilly are bound for. I expect the R+L=J pay off will be next season now.

Given how they played the ToJ reveal last season (Ned & Arthur Dayne fight in Episode 3, and then the reveal in the last seconds of the season), I fully expect Sam and Gilly to have their moment of revelation just before the credits roll next week.

The White Wolf

Mathias Wooden Machinist wrote: »

After reading this thread, I have to wonder to myself why some of you even bother watching the show. If you dislike it so much, why bother?

My attitude at this stage is to accept the show for what it is and enjoy the spectacle of it. Every one knows the weaknesses of the show at this point so people are wasting their breath repeating the same criticisms.

So I prefer to focus on the positive, while remain in the hope that GRRM will finish his own symphony.

Riddle101

The White Wolf wrote: »

My attitude at this stage is to accept the show for what it is and enjoy the spectacle of it. Every one knows the weaknesses of the show at this point so people are wasting their breath repeating the same criticisms.

That's the best way to put I think. After Arya's storyline last year with the The Waif i've kind've just accepted that this is how the show is going to be, so it's best to just watch and enjoy it rather then pick out the little errors. I'd like it the be better with the details but I guess the producers have other ideas.

TheIrishGrover

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

This is the book readers thread. It is almost by definition going to have people who loved, enjoyed or at least tolerated the books. Those people, including myself, are frustrated by the way in which the tone of the first 4 series, which was more or less faithful to the books has been replaced by a very different tone from series 5 onwards.

So, to give an example as to why the teleportation stuff is important, book 1 A game of thrones had a lot of tension because people were so far apart and were trying to communicate in a difficult context, and books 2 and 3 A clash of kings and A storm of swords were pretty much entirely based on the difficulties faced by armies trying to fight each other across Westeros.

Basically, book readers like the way in which GRRM has created an imperfect world where plans rarely work out but solutions still have to be reached, and the more recent series' suffer not, IMO, because of some sense of technical imperfection or lack of reality, but rather the fact that they are no longer true to the original spirit of the books.

It's exciting television, and TV is the new cinema as some people have said, but the hollywoodisation of the world of ASOFAI has become a lot more apparent in this series. If the price of being able to enjoy GOT is that we have to occasionally vent on the internet about these things, then so be it!

^^^^ This ^^^^

I think I mentioned it in one of my posts. the whole fog-of-war aspect is gone now. Armies needed to be rounded up and actually trudge to a battle. Entire chapters were dedicated to them waiting for optimal conditions for marching, gathering provisions etc the whole "Hurry up and wait" aspect of the movement of a large mass of men. Miscommunication/missed communication was another factor early on, ravens took days to be sent/replied to, causing deaths. For Christ sake, Tyrion hasn't met Dany yet because he's still travelling. (This is not a complaint of the series outpacing the books).

Look how long it is taking the walkers to reach The Wall. 7 years and going at this stage And they don't need provisions.

Now a single man can run what seems to be 15/20 miles back to the wall, a raven can then fly 900-1500 miles AND Dany can fly back said 900-1500 miles back all overnight.
Fair enough. Dragon power/super-fast bird etc.

But what about Episode 4? The Dothraki go from Dragonstone to Highgarden in a couple of days.... With a big F*ckoff dragon (Although I suppose Dany could have left that morning )

It's not being picky to point this out because it removes ANY "Will they or won't they get there in time" tension when they can get anywhere at any time they want.... so long as it's a minute before disaster.

Oh, and wans anyone expecting to hear Benjen yell "Leeerrrroooyyyyyyy Jenkinnnnnns"?


I still enjoy the show but a huge amount of tension has gone for me because you know that if a main character that Dany knows is in peril she'll fly in on Falcor and lay waste just in the nick of time no matter where she is.

ThunbergsAreGo

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

^^^^ This ^^^^

I think I mentioned it in one of my posts. the whole fog-of-war aspect is gone now. Armies needed to be rounded up and actually trudge to a battle. Entire chapters were dedicated to them waiting for optimal conditions for marching, gathering provisions etc the whole "Hurry up and wait" aspect of the movement of a large mass of men. Miscommunication/missed communication was another factor early on, ravens took days to be sent/replied to, causing deaths. For Christ sake, Tyrion hasn't met Dany yet because he's still travelling. (This is not a complaint of the series outpacing the books).

Now a single man can run what seems to be 15/20 miles back to the wall, a raven can then fly 900-1500 miles AND Dany can fly back said 900-1500 miles back all overnight.
Fair enough. Dragon power/super-fast bird etc.

But what about Episode 4? The Dothraki go from Dragonstone to Highgarden in a couple of days.... With a big F*ckoff dragon (Although I suppose Dany could have left that morning )

It's not being picky to point this out because it removes ANY "Will they or won't they get there in time" tension when they can get anywhere at any time they want.... so long as it's a minute before disaster.

Oh, and wans anyone expecting to hear Benjen yell "Leeerrrroooyyyyyyy Jenkinnnnnns"?


I still enjoy the show but a huge amount of tension has gone for me because you know that if a main character that Dany knows is in peril she'll fly in on Falcor and lay waste just in the nick of time no matter where she is.

If Dany can go that fast, why hasn't she checked where the unsullied are?

...must stop thinking logically...

PopePalpatine

So...is it just me, or did Brienne look as if she was wearing Ned's cloak?

RobbingBandit

Where's the Horn of Joramun in all this, where the duck is Euron Greyjoy too, he may or may not have a dragon horn to take control of Rhaegal in an absolute cluster duck of a twist.

awec

RobbingBandit wrote: »

Where's the Horn of Joramun in all this, where the duck is Euron Greyjoy too, he may or may not have a dragon horn to take control of Rhaegal in an absolute cluster duck of a twist.

They found that in the show ages ago didn't they? I can't remember any more references to it, so I guess it's just forgotten about at this point.

Riddle101

awec wrote: »

They found that in the show ages ago didn't they? I can't remember any more references to it, so I guess it's just forgotten about at this point.

Sam found a horn in Season 2. He found it with the Dragonglass. It hasn't been mentioned since. I was actually thinking about the horn a few days ago. Seems kind've unusual that it hasn't been seen since because it looks important. Maybe it could play some role later on.

J. Marston

Think showing the horn that time was just a nod to book readers. Would be silly to bring that or Dragonbinder into the plot now.

martingriff

J. Marston wrote: »

Think showing the horn that time was just a nod to book readers. Would be silly to bring that or Dragonbinder into the plot now.

Ya the horn is just a nod getting through the wall is all Viserion

martingriff

blackwhite wrote: »

Given how they played the ToJ reveal last season (Ned & Arthur Dayne fight in Episode 3, and then the reveal in the last seconds of the season), I fully expect Sam and Gilly to have their moment of revelation just before the credits roll next week.

No a cliffhanger just as Sam is to reveal it fades to black. That or Sam has something else to drop

Tyrion is a Targaryen or Bran is the Knight King

and Bran does the reveal of who Jon is