Go-Ahead Dublin City Routes - Updates and Discussion

GM228

dublinbuster wrote: »

i have zero reason to lie in my posts here, can other posters state the same?

There are to be discussions soon on a pay framework to take effect on the expiry of the current agreement at the end of this year. LUAS pay scales have not been mentioned, but no doubt they will be as pay "developments" in the public transport sector are to be discussed as per the agreement.

dublinbuster

GM228 wrote: »

There are to be discussions soon on a pay framework to take effect on the expiry of the current agreement at the end of this year. LUAS pay scales have not been mentioned, but no doubt they will be as pay "developments" in the public transport sector are to be discussed as per the agreement.

last pay deal included a provision that a review would take place to compare driving luas and bus, which is more demanding and then pay rates would be based of this review.
Now i have never driven a luas, but i dare say driving a bus around dublin is more skillful and demanding that driving a luas, would you not agree?
Therefore db drivers can expect at least the same pay if not more than a luas driver

Kermit.de.frog

Luas drivers are over paid.

LuckyLloyd

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Luas drivers are over paid.

Says who?

punisher5112

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Says who?

They don't deal with passengers for a start and then are inside a glass bubble and protected from the outside world.

They basically don't have to deal with anything once they run the tram the correct way and obey the signals anything else that happens is everyone else's fault.

BowWow

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Says who?

Non Luas drivers.

end of the road

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Luas drivers are over paid.

on which metric do you base this assertion?

StreetLight

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Luas drivers are over paid.

A Luas driver would probably be of use to more people in a single day than a politician in a lifetime.

LuckyLloyd

punisher5112 wrote: »

They don't deal with passengers for a start and then are inside a glass bubble and protected from the outside world.

They basically don't have to deal with anything once they run the tram the correct way and obey the signals anything else that happens is everyone else's fault.

Hey, no argument from me on bus drivers deserving to be paid as much, if not more, than LUAS drivers. Don’t let them make it bus driver vs LUAS driver, that’s how they win.

The assertion that LUAS drivers are overpaid is demonstrably false however as per the outcome of their industrial action.

markpb

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The assertion that LUAS drivers are overpaid is demonstrably false however as per the outcome of their industrial action

The idea that there is a correct amount to pay someone is rubbish. People have opinions but there is no fact. You can't even talk about affordability because almost everything else is variable too.

gozunda

markpb wrote: »

The idea that there is a correct amount to pay someone is rubbish. People have opinions but there is no fact. You can't even talk about affordability because almost everything else is variable too.

Plus one on this ...

LuckyLloyd

markpb wrote: »

The idea that there is a correct amount to pay someone is rubbish. People have opinions but there is no fact. You can't even talk about affordability because almost everything else is variable too.

I agree. The assertion was "LUAS drivers are overpaid" which doesn't stack up as they are paid what they are, which is the bottom line. Whatever you are getting paid - whether it by supply / demand market forces; your ability to negotiate; your ability to exploit your leverage or a combination of all three is what matters. If you want more, you have to go back to those fundamental drivers and manipulate them to your advantage.

antoinolachtnai

dfx- wrote: »

Aaaaaargh. The farebox point again.



and if they decide the set fare given to them is not enough?

Will this "but it's not about the farebox" argument ever please die?



Ah, so that's alright then, they can just pull out. No problems with that at all so, no need to worry about finding an operator for routes that were not wanted this time round.

This is the way countless service contracts work in the public sector and private sector alike. The contracting agency and the supplier negotiate in advance how much the supplier will be paid for the service. The contractor doesn't then get to change the price just because they don't like it anymore.

Why are bus services so different to all the other services that are contracted?

AlekSmart

GM228 wrote: »

The wage agreement was 2016, not 2015 and there was no reference to the Transdev pay scales, rather the unions and DB would meet mid 2018 to discuss a pay framework to take effect on the expiry of the agreement.

Perhaps you are getting mixed up with the LUAS deal where it was agreed to perform a benchmarking exercise with European tram drivers (which is yet to happen).

No Mix-Up.

Having the ability to vote on the proposals,I usually try to read them as thoroughly as I can before ticking the relevant box on the ballot paper.

There is indeed a committment to carry out a comparative exercise,specifically involving the Transdev drivers.
It is an "excerise" and contains no hard committment to matching the Transdev scale,but it does accept that the Busworkers Unions can reference this in their submissions.

There is,someplace,Pdf's of the agreement wording,but I can't be bothered spending time looking for it....;)

Bus eireann announced today that they are looking for 200 drivers across the country. If go ahead need approx 300 drivers it's good news for drivers surely as these are well paid secure jobs now on offer.

bk

While I'd have no argument that bus driving is a more difficult job then tram driving, difficulty of job doesn't normally define how much you are paid * If it did, people like nurses would be paid much more.

What does normally play a part is "productivity". A tram driver will typically carry far more passengers then a bus driver does. At least 5 times as many passengers per vehicle as a bus. That makes them a lot more "productive" and somewhat easier to justify a higher wage as the wage of a tram driver per 1000 passengers carried would be much lower then a bus driver.

* Strictly speaking difficulty of a job can play a part, if a job is somehow very difficult or requires very specific training (e.g. Doctors) then you may have less people applying for a job and that obviously plays into normal supply and demand.

Yes, GA, BE and I assume all the other bus companies looking for drivers should drive up wages in general across the industry.

Such a growing industry is usually good for employees.

GM228

AlekSmart wrote: »

No Mix-Up.

Having the ability to vote on the proposals,I usually try to read them as thoroughly as I can before ticking the relevant box on the ballot paper.

There is indeed a committment to carry out a comparative exercise,specifically involving the Transdev drivers.
It is an "excerise" and contains no hard committment to matching the Transdev scale,but it does accept that the Busworkers Unions can reference this in their submissions.

There is,someplace,Pdf's of the agreement wording,but I can't be bothered spending time looking for it....;)

Yes there was to be a "job evaluation exercise" between DB and "the light rail system" as per the agreement, but it did not have any specific mention to the new LUAS pay scales which is the point I'm making, nor did it have any terms of reference, last I heard this has not happened.

Stephen15

bk wrote: »

While I'd have no argument that bus driving is a more difficult job then tram driving, difficulty of job doesn't normally define how much you are paid * If it did, people like nurses would be paid much more.

What does normally play a part is "productivity". A tram driver will typically carry far more passengers then a bus driver does. At least 5 times as many passengers per vehicle as a bus. That makes them a lot more "productive" and somewhat easier to justify a higher wage as the wage of a tram driver per 1000 passengers carried would be much lower then a bus driver.

* Strictly speaking difficulty of a job can play a part, if a job is somehow very difficult or requires very specific training (e.g. Doctors) then you may have less people applying for a job and that obviously plays into normal supply and demand.

Yes, GA, BE and I assume all the other bus companies looking for drivers should drive up wages in general across the industry.

Such a growing industry is usually good for employees.

There are far less train/tram in this country than bus drivers so I think supply and demand may play a part in the reason why train/tram drivers are higher paid than bus drivers.

punisher5112

Wonder how GA are doing on recruitment???

Be now recruiting.

Db will be shortly also.

Contrails

punisher5112 wrote: »

Wonder how GA are doing on recruitment???

Be now recruiting.

Db will be shortly also.

I'd imagine there'll be a number of withdrawn applications for GA over the coming months. Semi states offering far superior packages...

bk

Stephen15 wrote: »

There are far less train/tram in this country than bus drivers so I think supply and demand may play a part in the reason why train/tram drivers are higher paid than bus drivers.

Errr.. well 100% of Trams drivers in Ireland already work for Luas and 100% (or close to it) of trains drivers work for IR already, so obviously the supply comes from somewhere else.

I didn't think there is any pre-requiste skills or education to become a tram driver, all training is done by the company. Thus your supply is literally anyone in the country who might be interested.

2000 applications for just 29 Luas jobs:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/more-than-2-000-people-apply-for-29-luas-driver-jobs-1.2965709

Trains are a lot more complicated and require a lot more training, so I wouldn't lob them in with trams, but the process is much the same (or at least it should be without the employment issues).

Point being since IR/Luas/DB will train you up with the necessary skills, then supply is literally any adult who might be interested in being a bus/train/tram driver and passes basic medical requirements.

punisher5112

One thing I would have done different is never went at driving a bus as dealing with the public is horrific and tiring.

I really should have went with train or tram.

bk

punisher5112 wrote: »

One thing I would have done different is never went at driving a bus as dealing with the public is horrific and tiring.

I really should have went with train or tram.

Absolutely, very tough job, you get to deal with some of the worst folks in our society.

Which is why I'm surprised some drivers seem to be against the idea of moving to a more mainland European/Luas style operating model. The multiple door, enter/exit through any door, zero driver interaction ticketing.

It wouldn't completely eliminate public interaction, but it would greatly reduce it. Might help reduce the stress and allow drivers to focus on the already difficult job of driving safely in Dublin's horrendous traffic.

AlekSmart

bk wrote: »

Absolutely, very tough job, you get to deal with some of the worst folks in our society.

Which is why I'm surprised some drivers seem to be against the idea of moving to a more mainland European/Luas style operating model. The multiple door, enter/exit through any door, zero driver interaction ticketing.

It wouldn't completely eliminate public interaction, but it would greatly reduce it. Might help reduce the stress and allow drivers to focus on the already difficult job of driving safely in Dublin's horrendous traffic.

One has to be kinda careful of taking what one reads on forums such as this as being in any way representative of the entireity of Busdrivers.

Yes,Busdrivers deal with "some of the worst" in our society,but by far and away the majority of people the Busdriver deals with,are ordinary,everyday folk,our Grandparents,Parents,Siblings,Children and every other besides,some of whom will be having a bad day,some experiencing stress and fearful,and some even happy and content.

Dealing with "the Public" is inherent to the Job,it's often challenging,often unrewarding,but yea,good things happen too..it's not ALL gloom,doom and darkness.

I would suggest that less than 1% of Dublin Bus's Driving establishment actually post here,which is not to take away from the value of their opinions,but...there is a large majority of Busdriving Staff who do NOT hate the job,do NOT hate the passengers,do NOT hate the management,do NOT hate the Inspectors,Mechanics,Cleaners...but instead,just get on with the job,without feeling that it has to be a 100% perfect employment,or expecting it to be 100% awful.
This majority,I suggest,rarely feature in the media,nor are they referenced by those posting here,but they represent the reality of how c.1000 buses are deployed around the City 21/7/364.

I would suggest that "Eliminating Public Interaction" need not be seen as a goal in isolation.
Reducing unnecessary faffing about on the platform,would be definitely a worthwhile move,but it is worth reminding ourselves that many of our passengers appreciate and expect,some form of interaction with Busdrivers.

Personally,I have no fear or reluctance in answering questions,however endless,nor do I regard conversation or opinion,as some form of cruel & unusual punishment,as it's part of Humanity and socialization.

It is also noteworthy,and can be supported by Drivers who operate in the City Tour businesses,that many foreign visitors,even "Mainland Europeans :eek:", regard their interaction with ordinary Dublin Busdrivers in a highly positive light,often comparing the ability and willingness of Dublin's Busdrivers to chat with the percieved grumpy,distant,segregated Busdrivers in their home regions.

Successive Irish Governments have spent Billions,attempting to convince the rest of the World,that the ordinary Irish have a different approach to conversation and interaction,and those programmes have been very successful,and I would suggest that,generally speaking,Busdrivers have played some role in that.

There is little doubt,that Busdriving involves a unique mix of skills and talents,not all of which are easily managed,so as to be available at the same time,every day.
There is equally little doubt that some who enter the sector,soon realize that the balancing act is not for them,but for whatever reason,decide to then embark upon a crusade to explain or justify,their hugely personal responses,until this eventually occupies every waking moment and often impinges upon private and family life also.
This is the point at which decisions need to be taken as to how much of one's life should be spent fighting a system,which not every other Busdriver regards as quite so threatening.

I would regularly meet with colleagues now retiring,who would happily carry on working were they to be allowed.
I meet others,who are counting the days to getting out,and others,who decided to get out earlier and take their lives off in totally unconnected ways,never regretting that decision.

There is a BIG diverse World out there,and we have only one relatively short timeframe to experience it....make the best of that time.

punisher5112

bk wrote: »

Absolutely, very tough job, you get to deal with some of the worst folks in our society.

Which is why I'm surprised some drivers seem to be against the idea of moving to a more mainland European/Luas style operating model. The multiple door, enter/exit through any door, zero driver interaction ticketing.

It wouldn't completely eliminate public interaction, but it would greatly reduce it. Might help reduce the stress and allow drivers to focus on the already difficult job of driving safely in Dublin's horrendous traffic.

Some of the worst folk I have to say are other working people not just scum bags.

Even some in their suits are tough to deal with.

If we went to the all door on/off style the biggest issue would be revenue and many more would just get on.

The amount that do this at it is is astonishing as they walk right on by many drivers.

The amount I catch out on a daily basis and the abuse one receives can be off the scale.

If anyone on here were planning on joining I would just say from my experience look for something else if at all possible.

AlekSmart

punisher5112 wrote: »

Some of the worst folk I have to say are other working people not just scum bags.

Even some in their suits are tough to deal with.

If we went to the all door on/off style the biggest issue would be revenue and many more would just get on.

The amount that do this at it is is astonishing as they walk right on by many drivers.

The amount I catch out on a daily basis and the abuse one receives can be off the scale.

If anyone on here were planning on joining I would just say from my experience look for something else if at all possible.

This is where we differ.

If anybody on here was planning on joining I would say,from my experience,to do your own research,use your own faculties,travel on the Bus Service,take closer observations of the Drivers actions,look and listen to the interactions.

Try to trust your own judgement,and rely less on outside influences,positive OR negative.
It is likely that you'll be at least 21 years old,and may already have some experience of dealing with People,which may be of greater value to you,than any great affinity with driving.

Ask yourself the big questions..particularly regarding Shift Work...Weekend Work.... :eek: LATE Weekend Work :eek:and long days with irregular break patterns.

Make sure you have your expectations laid out alongside the obvious demands of the Job,but if after this process,you still see it as worth applying for ,then DO IT...whether it's Bus Atha Cliath,Bus Eireann,Go-Ahead,Matthews,Wild Rover,or any of the many other Bus/Coach Operators now hungry for Drivers.

Be confident about your own abilities and your own expectations,do your own research.

bk

Excellent points in both your posts there Alek

AlekSmart wrote: »

One has to be kinda careful of taking what one reads on forums such as this as being in any way representative of the entireity of Busdrivers.

Yes, very true, those who shout loudest, versus the silent minority and all that.

AlekSmart wrote: »

Yes,Busdrivers deal with "some of the worst" in our society,but by far and away the majority of people the Busdriver deals with,are ordinary,everyday folk,our Grandparents,Parents,Siblings,Children and every other besides,some of whom will be having a bad day,some experiencing stress and fearful,and some even happy and content.

Absolutely, excellent point and in fact I was thinking exactly that when I wrote that comment. The VAST majority of passengers are just normal decent people going about their lives, going to work, going home to see their family, etc. and just get on and cause little attention one way or the other.

They probably make up 99% of people I see on the bus when I'm on it. I'd say less then 1% are trouble makers from what I've seen.

But it is human nature to forget about the 99% of people who are almost completely forgettable and just focus on the 1% who are memorable for all the wrong reasons.

I'd also agree with punishers point that not all trouble makers wear a tracksuit, I agree completely, but it also doesn't change the fact that the majority of passengers are jsut oridnary hard working folks like yourselves.

I'd also say that the vast majority of your passengers also understand that it is a difficult job and actually appreciate that you guys are getting us where we need to go safely. Most of us are cringing when some dick is arguing with a driver up front.

AlekSmart wrote: »

Dealing with "the Public" is inherent to the Job,it's often challenging,often unrewarding,but yea,good things happen too..it's not ALL gloom,doom and darkness.

Yes, IME most drivers are very nice and helpful folks. Recently I've been on and off buses a lot with baby and buggy and the majority of drivers have been great.

AlekSmart wrote: »

I would suggest that less than 1% of Dublin Bus's Driving establishment actually post here,which is not to take away from the value of their opinions,but...there is a large majority of Busdriving Staff who do NOT hate the job,do NOT hate the passengers,do NOT hate the management,do NOT hate the Inspectors,Mechanics,Cleaners...but instead,just get on with the job,without feeling that it has to be a 100% perfect employment,or expecting it to be 100% awful.

I'm delighted to hear that and completely lines up with most of my interactions with drivers all over the country and all sorts of services. Just decent, hard working, often helpful people in general.

AlekSmart wrote: »

I would suggest that "Eliminating Public Interaction" need not be seen as a goal in isolation.
Reducing unnecessary faffing about on the platform,would be definitely a worthwhile move,but it is worth reminding ourselves that many of our passengers appreciate and expect,some form of interaction with Busdrivers.

Well the main benefit would be in reducing dwell time, which is pretty terrible on DB compared to what you experience. Which would in turn reduce journey times for passengers which would be VERY welcome and also benefit the company in terms of possibly quicker turn around times and thus driver "productivity".

The reducing driver stress with having to deal with the public would be a secondary benefit that might help reduce drivers stress and leave them to focus on the driving. But I agree it wouldn't be the primary goal.

AlekSmart wrote: »

It is also noteworthy,and can be supported by Drivers who operate in the City Tour businesses,that many foreign visitors,even "Mainland Europeans :eek:", regard their interaction with ordinary Dublin Busdrivers in a highly positive light,often comparing the ability and willingness of Dublin's Busdrivers to chat with the percieved grumpy,distant,segregated Busdrivers in their home regions.

I think such interaction and friendliness certainly has it's place and tours is certainly a great example of that.

However I would argue that a city bus service is not the place for that. A city bus service is mostly about getting tired workers and students as quickly as possible to and from their places of work/study/etc. every day.

City bus services should be fast, efficient and reliable. That is what makes the Luas so popular.

Sorry I know that may sound cold and impersonal. But I think we in Ireland have far too much of "ah sure it will be grand, I'm just having a chat" and forget that we now live in a relatively big, modern, fast paced modern city where people need to get around quickly and efficiently.

AlekSmart wrote: »

There is a BIG diverse World out there,and we have only one relatively short timeframe to experience it....make the best of that time.

Very, very true.

punisher5112

AlekSmart I understand completely what you say I'm just voicing my opinion which I have quite a big experience from the highs to the lows.

I'm just stating if something else is there that one can do it, also it may be a good idea to look elsewhere.

If one likes driving of course go for it but it's an eye opener to what things are really like.

I loved driving but this has faded over time as so much has happened and not good things.

Little background things like jumpers I've come across a few, people who you nearly knock down daily and many times at that, I've had the bad end of that too where a person was hit.

Crashes and plenty of them, abuse from other drivers, cyclists, pedestrians etc etc.

Abuse from passengers, death threats, syringes, knives pulled and so on.

Spat at and on numerous times, punched a few times, steering wheel grabbed.

Many many many more things that's just a few.

Obviously not all in one week but over the years.

Tough job but if one doesn't mind all that or the unknown hours and duties go ahead.....

bk

punisher5112 wrote: »

I loved driving but this has faded over time as so much has happened and not good things.

Unfortunately that can happen in any job. The daily grind can wear down your initial enthusiasm for it. Even in the best paid, "cossy" office jobs, people burn out all the time.

punisher5112 wrote: »

Abuse from passengers, death threats, syringes, knives pulled and so on.

Spat at and on numerous times, punched a few times, steering wheel grabbed.

Unfortunately that is the reality of most public facing jobs. Nurses, doctors, Gardai, Fire Brigade face this sort of despicable behaviour every night. Work in a pub/nightclub, many restaurants and shops too, the same happens.

It sucks and it roots are in parts of our society, how we threat them and the entire legal system.

We really need to start facing up to the truth of this problem, but I'm afraid the majority of Irish society isn't there yet. I fear it will have to get worse before it is finally tackled :mad:

Sorry to all of you who face this daily.

Stephen15

punisher5112 wrote: »

abuse from passengers, death threats, syringes, knives pulled and so on.

Spat at and on numerous times, punched a few times, steering wheel grabbed.

Tbh I don't get how it is possible to grab the steering wheel of an in service DB bus with the perspex screen in the way.

Or are you like some DB drivers who use it as an armrest with one hand on the steering wheel . But seriously I have noticed a large amount drive with the perspex either half way down or the full way down if threats are such an issue why don't 100% of drivers drive with it the full way up 100% of the time.