Setting up a Sheep Farm

BaaBaa17

Hello all,

Long time reader, first time poster. I am thinking about getting a few sheep to start a farm, something small at first. Heres my story:

I have a small holding of around 20 acres of fairly good land and another 20 of mountain on a west Cork coast. The land is rented out but fairly idle so I'd like to start farming and improving it, as a pastime first but growing over time. Im in my early 30s and have experience handling sheep for others but never my own flock.

Im wondering what kind of supports are available for the likes of me to start off- I know there is a young farmers scheme, and the spf, but is there a scheme for fencing (id have to do a fair bit of wiring) and is reps still available?

And the biggest question- Is it worth the hassle or would I be just goin into debt? I'd be thinkin of starting of with 30 or 40 head, Im not thinking Ill make a millionaire of off myself but wondering if it would work.

Thanks in advance for the help- from readin the forum I know ye are a wealth of knowledge.

roosky

There is a tams fencing grant alright, that is worth looking at.

Your question about is it worth the hassle, if every part time farmer answered this honestly there would be a lot less of us at it.

At that scale you wont be too tied to it, anyway.

I would advise you to start off at a handy number as its not a profit driven thing and see what you need as in facilities, for a small flock you could put together a handling area handy enough.

If you start buying high end equipment you will never have it paid off !

BaaBaa17

Thanks for the reply roosky,
There isnt much equipment I could get as some of the mountain is so steep, you can barely walk up nevermind drive!

I suppose what I meant by the hassle was would I break even on such a small scale, or would I be diggin a hole for myself?

And do you think I'd be able to pick up the skills (lambing weaning rams etc) at this stage, without wreckin my neighbours heads too much?!

roosky

BaaBaa17 wrote: »

Thanks for the reply roosky,
There isnt much equipment I could get as some of the mountain is so steep, you can barely walk up nevermind drive!

I suppose what I meant by the hassle was would I break even on such a small scale, or would I be diggin a hole for myself?

And do you think I'd be able to pick up the skills (lambing weaning rams etc) at this stage, without wreckin my neighbours heads too much?!

You could learn a hell of a lot from internet now a days to lessen the burden on your neighbors,

Unless you invest very heavily in equipment you will make money on the lowland, i wouldnt know enough to comment on the hill side of things

BaaBaa17

Thanks again Roosky

One more question (sorry!) Is REPS still available?

roosky

BaaBaa17 wrote: »

Thanks again Roosky

One more question (sorry!) Is REPS still available?

No reps is gone but the is now GLAS

http://www.agriland.ie/everything-you-need-to-know-about-glas/

BaaBaa17

Great thanks- ill let u go out to your sheep, good man!

arctictree

The only way to make money from sheep is to spend nothin!! Or as little as you can get away with.....

BaaBaa17

arctictree wrote: »

The only way to make money from sheep is to spend nothin!! Or as little as you can get away with.....

Good man- thats the plan anyways!

Siamsa Sessions

Fencing and handling facilities are the only pre-requisites, I'd say. Everything else can be figured out as you go. You'll make plenty mistakes and get things wrong but as long as you don't keep repeating them, you'll be grand.

I got into sheep in 2015 and lambed for the first time in 2016. My father had them years ago but there's some difference between giving someone a hand and actually managing the flock yourself. But you figure it out over time.

Read loads of stuff about them on the Teagasc and the AHDB website: http://beefandlamb.ahdb.org.uk/returns/systems-and-costings/

If you've 20 good acres, then in theory you can carry 90-100 ewes plus their lambs. But it might be easier to start off with 30-40 as you say. The lower stocking rate makes flock health easier to manage. You can build nunbers as your knowledge increases.

I've a few spreadsheets I put together for working out various bits and pieces such as lambing dates, "projected" margins (!), etc. Send me a PM with your email address and I'll send them onto you.

roosky

"projected" margins (!)

we all live in hope hahaha

BaaBaa17

roosky wrote: »

"projected" margins (!)

we all live in hope hahaha

Whats a man without dreams!

123shooter

As regards farming grants/assistance. Well when or if Brexit happens there is no guarantee that things will stay the same as there will be a big shortfall in cash when the UK goes. So a wise man wouldn't bank on such being there in their present form.

Artictree has it correct when approaching sheep keeping. We had mountain horny's and with feet, dipping, shearing etc we found it just wasn't worth the hassle for the returns, so then we got Easycare simply because they were supposed to be far less work which turned out to be correct and it suits us.

My Lamborghini at the moment hasn't a tow hitch fitted for the trailer but my new Maserati being delivered next week comes with one fitted as standard so on 20 acres of sheep you will be fine.

BaaBaa17

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

Fencing and handling facilities are the only pre-requisites, I'd say. Everything else can be figured out as you go. You'll make plenty mistakes and get things wrong but as long as you don't keep repeating them, you'll be grand.

I got into sheep in 2015 and lambed for the first time in 2016. My father had them years ago but there's some difference between giving someone a hand and actually managing the flock yourself. But you figure it out over time.

Read loads of stuff about them on the Teagasc and the AHDB website: http://beefandlamb.ahdb.org.uk/returns/systems-and-costings/

If you've 20 good acres, then in theory you can carry 90-100 ewes plus their lambs. But it might be easier to start off with 30-40 as you say. The lower stocking rate makes flock health easier to manage. You can build nunbers as your knowledge increases.

I've a few spreadsheets I put together for working out various bits and pieces such as lambing dates, "projected" margins (!), etc. Send me a PM with your email address and I'll send them onto you.

Wow thank for that, you seem to be in the same boat as me. Did you buy your own ram aswell? One of the problems I have is that the land is in 5 different parcels which isnt ideal from a management point of view, but it is what it is.
Did you have an advisor from Teagasc?
Thanks again

BaaBaa17

123shooter wrote: »

As regards farming grants/assistance. Well when or if Brexit happens there is no guarantee that things will stay the same as there will be a big shortfall in cash when the UK goes. So a wise man wouldn't bank on such being there in their present form.

Artictree has it correct when approaching sheep keeping. We had mountain horny's and with feet, dipping, shearing etc we found it just wasn't worth the hassle for the returns, so then we got Easycare simply because they were supposed to be far less work which turned out to be correct and it suits us.

My Lamborghini at the moment hasn't a tow hitch fitted for the trailer but my new Maserati being delivered next week comes with one fitted as standard so on 20 acres of sheep you will be fine.

Haha! Ill order one of those mazers too then 😊

BaaBaa17

How d'ye fibd easycare on rough mountain? Do they winter well up there?

123shooter

BaaBaa17 wrote: »

How d'ye fibd easycare on rough mountain? Do they winter well up there?

If you mean rock and moss and no cover..........no i dont think so.

If you mean the better green areas of mountainy type areas where there is cover then thats what i have . They love a varied diet........mad for sally and rowan trees, seen them eat rushes and thistles.........they like a bit of everything with their grass.

Siamsa Sessions

BaaBaa17 wrote: »

Wow thank for that, you seem to be in the same boat as me. Did you buy your own ram aswell? One of the problems I have is that the land is in 5 different parcels which isnt ideal from a management point of view, but it is what it is.
Did you have an advisor from Teagasc?
Thanks again

I joined Teagasc for 2015 and 2016 but didn't renew subscription for 2017. We're in a dairy area and our Teagasc advisor was a part-time beef farmer. So, there wasn't much interest or expertise coming through. I didn't mind though, as it was a crutch for me when starting out. Now, that crutch did cost €145 per year so I'm not sure if it was good value in hindsight!

Having different parcels of land is not ideal. It means more fencing and more moving them around between fields and when you're bringing them into the yard. But as with anything, it's manageable if you're patient and work with what you have.

Got a loan of a ram the first year from a cousin. First lesson: Suffolk rams and ewe lambs are not a good mix! The lambs they had were all very big and I'd a job to pull them off nearly all of the ewe lambs (hoggets).

Second year, I got a Llyen ram and had no problems lambing. This gave me plenty nice material ewe lambs to join the flock. This year (for lambing 2018), I'm going with a Charollais which are easy-lambing but also a terminal breed, so should fatten easier and quicker than the maternal Llyen.

Having said all that, I'll have to see how things work out. It's alright having all these things planned but the reality might be something different. I don't think I'll be buying a Ferrari any time soon anyway!!!

Siamsa Sessions

Should have said that the farming community on boards.ie here are brilliant as well. I've asked loads of questions over the past two years and the people who respond on here were above and beyond anything I've ever seen in any other online forum.

Hopefully I can try return the favour now that I'm learning a small bit myself.

BaaBaa17

Yeah I've learned loads on here. So what first step would u reccommend, after gettin a heard number?

roosky

The fencing grant could take a while so is it fenced good enough to keep them happy at a low stocking rate for the minute ??

Siamsa Sessions

BaaBaa17 wrote: »

Yeah I've learned loads on here. So what first step would u reccommend, after gettin a heard number?

Buy a few store lambs now to get used to having sheep around the place?

You could buy ewes with lambs at foot in April then

arctictree

roosky wrote: »

The fencing grant could take a while so is it fenced good enough to keep them happy at a low stocking rate for the minute ??

Applied for the fencing grant in June 2016. They rang me yesterday to do the pre job inspection!!

BaaBaa17

roosky wrote: »

The fencing grant could take a while so is it fenced good enough to keep them happy at a low stocking rate for the minute ??

Thanks for all your replies,

I think the first thing I need to do is to the the cousin my plans - he has silage on the good land and i must find outnif we can work around each other with sheep and silage?

Inchilad

arctictree wrote:

Applied for the fencing grant in June 2016. They rang me yesterday to do the pre job inspection!!

I stand to be corrected on this but i think a requirement for tams fencing grant is that applicant must have had 50 sheep on previous years census?

BaaBaa17

Inchilad wrote: »

I stand to be corrected on this but i think a requirement for tams fencing grant is that applicant must have had 50 sheep on previous years census?

Whats the best way to get info on these grants and supports - the Dept or Teagasc?

ganmo

BaaBaa17 wrote: »

Whats the best way to get info on these grants and supports - the Dept or Teagasc?

Each grant has its own section in the dept so they only know their own grant.

I'd say talk to teagasc

BaaBaa17

ganmo wrote: »

Each grant has its own section in the dept so they only know their own grant.

I'd say talk to teagasc

Will do thanks

Siamsa Sessions

BaaBaa17 wrote: »

Whats the best way to get info on these grants and supports - the Dept or Teagasc?

Ask on here too!

The Dept are hard to contact by phone, but Teagasc will probably make you sign up for their services - €145 for basic (in every sense of the word) package - if you want them to answer the phone to you.

Still, they're a source of information and will do your BPS application too for the above price. They charge extra for other applications like TAMS though.

roosky

http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/applying-for-sheep-fencing-grant-aid-heres-the-specs-you-need-to-keep-in-mind/

this might help

BaaBaa17

Inchilad wrote: »

I stand to be corrected on this but i think a requirement for tams fencing grant is that applicant must have had 50 sheep on previous years census?

Your right, thats on the conditions alright

Inchilad

BaaBaa17 wrote:

Your right, thats on the conditions alright

Ya was looking to fence hill and advisor did mention something about it.

Inchilad

BaaBaa17 wrote:

Im wondering what kind of supports are available for the likes of me to start off- I know there is a young farmers scheme, and the spf, but is there a scheme for fencing (id have to do a fair bit of wiring) and is reps still available?

Supports available are slack enough.have you green cert?its worth getting if you can.they do it in clon.might be worth wiring the lowland stuff yourself and getting the numbers needed to qualify for tams grant for the hill.wiring hill is no joke!im farming similiar ground.im over near inchigeela

BaaBaa17

Inchilad wrote: »

Supports available are slack enough.have you green cert?its worth getting if you can.they do it in clon.might be worth wiring the lowland stuff yourself and getting the numbers needed to qualify for tams grant for the hill.wiring hill is no joke!im farming similiar ground.im over near inchigeela

Yeah thats my plan. Some of it is wired already, so I'd only need to patch that, but the rest has been fairly neglected. The mountain is f**ked altogether thou, hasnt been maintained at all, and Id need tams for that.

I havent even a herd number yet, nevermind a green cert!

Inchilad

BaaBaa17 wrote:

I havent even a herd number yet, nevermind a green cert!

Thats easy enough but they do check fencing(sometimes!)

Oldira

BaaBaa17 wrote: »

Yeah thats my plan. Some of it is wired already, so I'd only need to patch that, but the rest has been fairly neglected. The mountain is f**ked altogether thou, hasnt been maintained at all, and Id need tams for that.

I havent even a herd number yet, nevermind a green cert!

You never said if there are payments..BPS etc attached to the land as that makes a huge difference to profitability.

I started farming 40 acres in 2015 good land but shockingly overgrown and neglected. Bought 40 sheep and an expensive ram who turned out infertile so had no lambs in 2016. Borrowed a charolais ram for 2017 and have had a great crop of lambs with no trouble at lambing. I put them into a hayshed and leab two for lambing and prefeedng the triplet bearing ones. We managed to get into GLAS 2 and that is paying for the recaliming we are doing every year. So from scratch in 2015 I will turn a profit in 2017 albeit it will all be going back into improvements. I get over 8k a year in Dept payments so obviously that makes a big difference.
Start with making sure you have proper fencing as this will save a lot of bother and also buy a few sheep penning gates to make pens. No need to buy loads of new stuff. Troughs etc can all be sourced cheaply on Done Deal.
You do need a farm advisor imo. Doesnt have to be (shouldnt be!!) Teagasc as he will advise you on supports etc. Try and get into a sheep KT scheme. They have their faults but you can learn a lot of you want to and get paid a few euros for doing so.
I weaned my lambs recently and it was a great feeling to see a pen full of lambs that I had brought this far. Obviously the first cheque from Kepak/Mart will be even better! Good luck!

BaaBaa17

Oldira wrote: »

You never said if there are payments..BPS etc attached to the land as that makes a huge difference to profitability.

I started farming 40 acres in 2015 good land but shockingly overgrown and neglected. Bought 40 sheep and an expensive ram who turned out infertile so had no lambs in 2016. Borrowed a charolais ram for 2017 and have had a great crop of lambs with no trouble at lambing. I put them into a hayshed and leab two for lambing and prefeedng the triplet bearing ones. We managed to get into GLAS 2 and that is paying for the recaliming we are doing every year. So from scratch in 2015 I will turn a profit in 2017 albeit it will all be going back into improvements. I get over 8k a year in Dept payments so obviously that makes a big difference.
Start with making sure you have proper fencing as this will save a lot of bother and also buy a few sheep penning gates to make pens. No need to buy loads of new stuff. Troughs etc can all be sourced cheaply on Done Deal.
You do need a farm advisor imo. Doesnt have to be (shouldnt be!!) Teagasc as he will advise you on supports etc. Try and get into a sheep KT scheme. They have their faults but you can learn a lot of you want to and get paid a few euros for doing so.
I weaned my lambs recently and it was a great feeling to see a pen full of lambs that I had brought this far. Obviously the first cheque from Kepak/Mart will be even better! Good luck!

Thanks a mil for that very good reply. Your story sounds similar to mine... I presumed id be able to apply for the bps, glas, tam, young farmer etc after i get the herd no and the sheep? Excuse my ignorance!

Ard_MC

BaaBaa17 wrote: »

Thanks a mil for that very good reply. Your story sounds similar to mine... I presumed id be able to apply for the bps, glas, tam, young farmer etc after i get the herd no and the sheep? Excuse my ignorance!

GLAS, is closed so you won't get that. Young farmer didn't happen this yr. BPS only if you have entitlements on the land. And anc only if your in a disadvantaged area. Go see an advisor is your best bet for schemes and a good sheep farmer in your area to see the sheep systems thats working.

BaaBaa17

Ard_MC wrote: »

GLAS, is closed so you won't get that. Young farmer didn't happen this yr. BPS only if you have entitlements on the land. And anc only if your in a disadvantaged area. Go see an advisor is your best bet for schemes and a good sheep farmer in your area to see the sheep systems thats working.

Thanks. I dont understand the entitlements system very well, so I should talk to an advisor. Will there be another GLAS?

ganmo

BaaBaa17 wrote: »

Thanks. I dont understand the entitlements system very well, so I should talk to an advisor. Will there be another GLAS?

Yes
The gov have to have an agri environmental scheme of some sorts but it might be a year(pulled from me arse) before it's open for applicants again

Siamsa Sessions

ganmo wrote: »

Yes
The gov have to have an agri environmental scheme of some sorts but it might be a year(pulled from me arse) before it's open for applicants again

I emailed the Dept and asked if there was any plans for a new GLAS or similar and got no reply (previously I had no problem getting replies to emails).

Hopefully there'll be something soon. We weren't set up to go into GLAS last time but will be looking very closely at any new schemes like that.

Siamsa Sessions

Oldira wrote: »

You never said if there are payments..BPS etc attached to the land as that makes a huge difference to profitability.

I started farming 40 acres in 2015 good land but shockingly overgrown and neglected. Bought 40 sheep and an expensive ram who turned out infertile so had no lambs in 2016. Borrowed a charolais ram for 2017 and have had a great crop of lambs with no trouble at lambing. I put them into a hayshed and leab two for lambing and prefeedng the triplet bearing ones. We managed to get into GLAS 2 and that is paying for the recaliming we are doing every year. So from scratch in 2015 I will turn a profit in 2017 albeit it will all be going back into improvements. I get over 8k a year in Dept payments so obviously that makes a big difference.
Start with making sure you have proper fencing as this will save a lot of bother and also buy a few sheep penning gates to make pens. No need to buy loads of new stuff. Troughs etc can all be sourced cheaply on Done Deal.
You do need a farm advisor imo. Doesnt have to be (shouldnt be!!) Teagasc as he will advise you on supports etc. Try and get into a sheep KT scheme. They have their faults but you can learn a lot of you want to and get paid a few euros for doing so.
I weaned my lambs recently and it was a great feeling to see a pen full of lambs that I had brought this far. Obviously the first cheque from Kepak/Mart will be even better! Good luck!

No direct payments here but similar story to yours other than that. Started with store lambs in 2015, lambed a few ewes in 2016 and 2017, and will turn a modest profit in 2018. Fencing and stock were the main costs. And we'll probably invest a decent amount of the profit/surplus in fencing and stock in 2018 too! It won't be an ongoing thing (what's the point?) but needs to be done to get up to a level where you can manage part-time.

BaaBaa17

Another quick question: whay is the best eay to find out the entitlements on the land?

rangler1

BaaBaa17 wrote: »

Another quick question: whay is the best eay to find out the entitlements on the land?

It's usually the person that's farming the land owns the entitlements, if you owned them you'd know about them as you'd be getting rent for them as well as the land so it's likely you don't have any entitlements.

BaaBaa17

rangler1 wrote: »

It's usually the person that's farming the land owns the entitlements, if you owned them you'd know about them as you'd be getting rent for them as well as the land so it's likely you don't have any entitlements.

My father had the land rented out for a kinda cash in hand arrangement so I dnt really know. He was farming himself before that, but I dunno if he was gettin any supports.

J.O. Farmer

BaaBaa17 wrote: »

My father had the land rented out for a kinda cash in hand arrangement so I dnt really know. He was farming himself before that, but I dunno if he was gettin any supports.

Even if your dad was getting supports he would have needed to apply for them in 2015 as that was the 1st year of the current CAP scheme for there to be any entitlements. They had to be activated by the owner at that time.

After that a form would need to be signed each year to apply for the entitlements or lease the entitlements to someone else. Either way there'd be a letter coming in the door each March or April.

BaaBaa17

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

Even if your dad was getting supports he would have needed to apply for them in 2015 as that was the 1st year of the current CAP scheme for there to be any entitlements. They had to be activated by the owner at that time.

After that a form would need to be signed each year to apply for the entitlements or lease the entitlements to someone else. Either way there'd be a letter coming in the door each March or April.

I'm pretty sure he wasnt, so that screws that I'd say. Would no entitlements mean no supports? Its just its very hard to see a way to develop the land without some supoorts.

rangler1

BaaBaa17 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure he wasnt, so that screws that I'd say. Would no entitlements mean no supports? Its just its very hard to see a way to develop the land without some supoorts.

I was a judge for the sheep farmer of the year competition this year....we gave it to this guy.He was something else. Work hard and it can be done, otherwise forget it......have to say I wouldn't do it either.

http://www.independent.ie/business/farming/sheep/this-farmer-started-with-just-23-acres-but-has-built-up-a-600strong-flock-on-400ac-36031098.html

Just edited to say his contracting was shearing and contract dipping....he couldn't have picked harder work. really nice family too

charolais0153

rangler1 wrote: »

I was a judge for the sheep farmer of the year competition this year....we gave it to this guy.He was something else. Work hard and it can be done, otherwise forget it......have to say I wouldn't do it either.

http://www.independent.ie/business/farming/sheep/this-farmer-started-with-just-23-acres-but-has-built-up-a-600strong-flock-on-400ac-36031098.html

Just edited to say his contracting was shearing and contract dipping....he couldn't have picked harder work. really nice family too

Is that actual dipping or a shower.

rangler1

charolais0153 wrote: »

Is that actual dipping or a shower.

I think it's a shower but that's hard on the operator too

BaaBaa17

rangler1 wrote: »

I was a judge for the sheep farmer of the year competition this year....we gave it to this guy.He was something else. Work hard and it can be done, otherwise forget it......have to say I wouldn't do it either.

http://www.independent.ie/business/farming/sheep/this-farmer-started-with-just-23-acres-but-has-built-up-a-600strong-flock-on-400ac-36031098.html

Just edited to say his contracting was shearing and contract dipping....he couldn't have picked harder work. really nice family too

I dont mind hard work, but cant afford to dig a hole for myself.