Abs or no abs

Lumen

terrydel wrote: »

Its fairly obvious, Im disagreeing with the statement that an experienced rider (on no abs) will outbrake a person on an abs bike in the dry. On many occasions they will not. Theres far more to it than 'abs or no abs', thats a blanket statement and blatantly untrue.

I think a rider with normal skill levels will be able to brake hard in a straight line in more or less the same distance with or without ABS, even in the wet. At least that's my experience on a bicycle - you can stoppie in a straight line pretty easily, even in the wet.

That's not really the issue. The issue is hard (emergency) braking while turning, which is really hard to get right on a motorbike, particularly in the wet.
Obviously you don't plan to be braking hard while turning, which is what marks it out as an emergency. In that case I'd guess almost nobody would prefer to be without ABS.

frozenfrozen

terrydel wrote: »

Its fairly obvious, Im disagreeing with the statement that an experienced rider (on no abs) will outbrake a person on an abs bike in the dry. On many occasions they will not. Theres far more to it than 'abs or no abs', thats a blanket statement and blatantly untrue.

you've got a shitty attitude there buddy good luck trying to have an argument with whoever could be bothered to put up with it

Skill Magill

Lumen wrote: »

I think a rider with normal skill levels will be able to brake hard in a straight line in more or less the same distance with or without ABS, even in the wet ABS.

There are no normal "Skill" levels, you either got it. or you don't

Skill Magill

Pugzilla

Skill Magill wrote: »

There are no normal "Skill" levels, you either got it. or you don't

Skill Magill

Load of bull****, no one is born with innate skill.

Professional racers have been on bikes since they could walk. Sure they have talent, but it's useless without building the needed experience. That goes for anything.

Skill Magill

Pugzilla wrote: »

Load of bull****, no one is born with innate skill.

Professional racers have been on bikes since they could walk. Sure they have talent, but it's useless without building the needed experience. That goes for anything.

chill dude, I'm Skill Magill, born with innate talent

scarebus03

For a modern ABS system which operates in milliseconds it is doubtful that any rider could produce the same affect when braking hard on a non-ABS equipped bike. My current bike doesn't have it but my next one will. A skilled rider may be able to stay on for the duration of the skid when braking hard or modulating between skids until the bike comes to a stop but he'll use more asphalt and rubber to get there than a rider at the same skill level with ABS.

In short if money is no blocker then go ABS.


Cheers

Wonda-Boy

Thats why I made the point of saying that the earliest ABS systems would be very basic and a rider would indeed outbrake and ABS system. But todays technology I seriously doubt humans would do a better job.

CJhaughey

Wonda-Boy wrote: »

Thats why I made the point of saying that the earliest ABS systems would be very basic and a rider would indeed outbrake and ABS system. But todays technology I seriously doubt humans would do a better job.

Unless your co-ordination is that advanced that you can detect wheel slippage at 100 x per second the computer will always beat a human.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHRWg91hv-M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJ_UkAFW6cA

batman_oh

scarebus03 wrote: »

For a modern ABS system which operates in milliseconds it is doubtful that any rider could produce the same affect when braking hard on a non-ABS equipped bike. My current bike doesn't have it but my next one will. A skilled rider may be able to stay on for the duration of the skid when braking hard or modulating between skids until the bike comes to a stop but he'll use more asphalt and rubber to get there than a rider at the same skill level with ABS.

In short if money is no blocker then go ABS.


Cheers

On track on a modern sportsbike the ABS in definitely not as good when setting lap times. Everybody that races at any level will remove it as the system intervenes too early. Have a read of any test of sportsbike on track and you will see this. This months Performance Bikes has both the R1M and Fireblade SP receiving poor marks for the brakes from Michael Rutter due to ABS that can't be turned off. Suzuki had to disconnect the ABS on the new GSXR1000 at the launch in Philip Island as it was causing the bike to run wide in a lot of the fast corner entries.
On the road for the normal person it should basically be the same as a non ABS set up on the same bike as they will use the same braking set ups (maybe a slight difference in feel/lever travel). What it does is give a safety net for panic braking - especially in the wet. If you aren't locking the wheel or activating it, it is doing nothing so I'm not sure how it can be better? (or worse).

There's a supernaked bike group test on Youtube done by Bike World where they actually test the ABS (intentionally lock the front wheel) - some of the results are surprising. Like the 1290 Superduke which has theoretically the best brakes, basically free wheeling an extra 10 yards and finishing up much worse off than the other bikes due to how the ABS works. I've never seen any magazine actually test the ABS before - stopping normally is not using it.

Lumen

batman_oh wrote: »

On track on a modern sportsbike the ABS in definitely not as good when setting lap times. Everybody that races at any level will remove it as the system intervenes too early.

Yes, but on a track braking is planned extremely far in advance compared to where you would need ABS on the road, and in the most common "emergency" situations (e.g. the rider in front dropping the bike in the wet near an apex) you're on the limit of grip and so braking isn't going to help at all.

I don't think it's controversial to suggest that if you rode on the road as you would on the track you'd be dead in no time.

Muahahaha

Never had ABS but would like it on my next bike. Anyone know what year it became more mainstream? Im thinking of buying a used R6 or CBR next year as a second bike and would like it to have it.

Pugzilla

Muahahaha wrote: »

Never had ABS but would like it on my next bike. Anyone know what year it became more mainstream? Im thinking of buying a used R6 or CBR next year as a second bike and would like it to have it.

CBR600RR and CBR1000RR first got ABS as an option in 2009, R6 only got ABS this year.

Motorbike ABS became mandatory for all new models in the EU from 2016 on wards.

antiskeptic

ABS, traction control, collision prediction systems ... and eventually, auto-driving systems.

They all make sense in themselves but also lead further and further away from what motorcycling is about. Motorcycling is at least about mastering a challenge where one of the constraints to be faced involves danger.

The more you dilute the constraint, the more you dilute the challenge, the end point being a stripped-out, fast-food version of motorcycling.

Compare: having navigated a challenging section of road using your own skills at traction control and braking, knowing that your safety depended upon you and your finding the right balance between own skill and speed.

And knowing that a computerdidit.

All this technology is fine if you're commuting and want the practicality of a bike and the safety of a car. But for motorcycling?

Pugzilla

antiskeptic wrote: »

All this technology is fine if you're commuting and want the practicality of a bike and the safety of a car. But for motorcycling?

What to say?

I remember you from years ago comparing motorcycling to point duty in Vietnam.

Pugzilla

Let's stop wearing helmets and gear altogether. Those Moto GP and IOM racers are pussies after all.

Pugzilla

Also go back to suicide clutches because they're for real hard men.

antiskeptic

Pugzilla wrote: »

What to say?

I remember you from years ago comparing motorcycling to point duty in Vietnam.

A far more realistic end of the spectrum to occupy than carefree-wind-in-your-hai **BANG**

antiskeptic

Pugzilla wrote: »

Let's stop wearing helmets and gear altogether. Those Moto GP and IOM racers are pussies after all.

.

So, sat upon an auto-driving (or riding) motorcycle. Would you still consider yourself a motorcyclist?

As I say, the more you move in the direction of technology riding for you, the more you leave motorcycling behind. Pick whereever it is you want to be on the spectrum, by all means - I was merely making an observation about the cost of the benefit.

Would anyone learn how to brake a motorcycle if the motorcycle circumvents the need to learn how to brake?

Pugzilla

antiskeptic wrote: »

.

Would anyone learn how to brake a motorcycle if the motorcycle circumvents the need to learn how to brake?

Unless you're a professional racer, who are you trying to impress with your braking skills? Nobody gives a ****e. A computer will out brake anyone on this forum.

Any technology that increases your odds of coming home alive and not being f~cked off your bike during an emergency stop should be welcomed.

CJhaughey

The issue is that modern bikes make so much power that there is too much to manage for the average rider.
Sportsbikes making 200+ with a fat torque curve rely on the rider being experienced enough to control the throttle on a wet and greasy corner with cold tyres.
Coming into a corner a bit fast and asking for more braking than the tyre can give is another reason for rider aids.
I don't have any ABS on my bikes but I wouldn't be afraid of having it if I could on a newer bike.

antiskeptic

Pugzilla wrote: »

Unless you're a professional racer, who are you trying to impress with your braking skills?

Myself. Man and machine vs the obstacles .. and all that.

Nobody gives a ****e. A computer will out brake anyone on this forum.

And when a computer can outride anyone on the forum?

Pugzilla

antiskeptic wrote: »

And when a computer can outride anyone on the forum?

The computer is there to help the rider.

Get a bicycle if you want more involvement, no engine to propel the bike for you.

Cienciano

I wouldn't get a bike with early ABS, but if I was getting a new bike I'd get it.

antiskeptic wrote: »

ABS, traction control, collision prediction systems ... and eventually, auto-driving systems.

They all make sense in themselves but also lead further and further away from what motorcycling is about. Motorcycling is at least about mastering a challenge where one of the constraints to be faced involves danger.

The more you dilute the constraint, the more you dilute the challenge, the end point being a stripped-out, fast-food version of motorcycling.

Compare: having navigated a challenging section of road using your own skills at traction control and braking, knowing that your safety depended upon you and your finding the right balance between own skill and speed.

And knowing that a computerdidit.

All this technology is fine if you're commuting and want the practicality of a bike and the safety of a car. But for motorcycling?

No it's not. Motorcycling is a motor on 2 wheels. If you want something with no electronics, get a bike with a kick start and carbs.

antiskeptic

Cienciano wrote: »

No it's not.

So, who'll decide who's right. Or is it a case of an alternative view about what motorcycling involves.

I take it that auto-piloting of your motorcycle might represent a threshold where you don't consider yourself a motorcyclist anymore?

Cienciano

antiskeptic wrote: »

So, who'll decide who's right. Or is it a case of an alternative view about what motorcycling involves.

I take it that auto-piloting of your motorcycle might represent a threshold where you don't consider yourself a motorcyclist anymore?

You're the one who thinks having ABS doesn't make you a "motorcyclist". So, you're talking shíte as usual.

Wonda-Boy

Look we only need all these riders aids because of the gob****es on the road.....lol.

1st few quid I get I am getting a brand new bike with more buttons then a grannies cardigan!

Abu94

batman_oh wrote: »

On track on a modern sportsbike the ABS in definitely not as good when setting lap times. Everybody that races at any level will remove it as the system intervenes too early. Have a read of any test of sportsbike on track and you will see this. This months Performance Bikes has both the R1M and Fireblade SP receiving poor marks for the brakes from Michael Rutter due to ABS that can't be turned off. Suzuki had to disconnect the ABS on the new GSXR1000 at the launch in Philip Island as it was causing the bike to run wide in a lot of the fast corner entries.
On the road for the normal person it should basically be the same as a non ABS set up on the same bike as they will use the same braking set ups (maybe a slight difference in feel/lever travel). What it does is give a safety net for panic braking - especially in the wet. If you aren't locking the wheel or activating it, it is doing nothing so I'm not sure how it can be better? (or worse).

There's a supernaked bike group test on Youtube done by Bike World where they actually test the ABS (intentionally lock the front wheel) - some of the results are surprising. Like the 1290 Superduke which has theoretically the best brakes, basically free wheeling an extra 10 yards and finishing up much worse off than the other bikes due to how the ABS works. I've never seen any magazine actually test the ABS before - stopping normally is not using it.

Talking about racing and predictable braking scenarios? I think you don't understand why abs exists. It exists to stop you from locking the wheels in am emergency UNPREDICTABLE scenario and not in a controlled tests where you are prepared to brake.

Reindeer

Abu94 wrote: »

Talking about racing and predictable braking scenarios? I think you don't understand why abs exists. It exists to stop you from locking the wheels in am emergency UNPREDICTABLE scenario and not in a controlled tests where you are prepared to brake.

Exactly. The track is not the street.

Many of us here have raced on a track. I did a lot of Super Stock back in the day on a ZX7. I also rode like an idiot on the street for a bit before I spent time on the track. I learned my lesson quickly. Some of us will learn the hard way the street is not a race track, like some of us will learn the hard way braking on a track is far different from braking on the street. The list of hazards streetside VS trackside is near infinite. If you want to challenge yourself on the street, you have issues that are outside of motorcycling, not within.