Abs or no abs

Abu94

Should I look for a motorbike with abs or not?

BlackWizard

If you can afford it and it doesn't reduce the quality or range of bikes that interest you then go for it.

Most of us here started with bikes that have no ABS and a good few still don't have ABS bikes. Some might have horror stories where they wish they had or were glad to have had ABS and others will tell you they never used it once in their life.

For me personally I don't care but do expect it on all new bikes.

Del2005

An experienced rider in the dry will out brake an person on an ABS equipped bike. In all other circumstances the ABS will save you.

Pugzilla

Modern ABS systems on bikes will outbrake even professional riders. A computer can modulate brakes better than any human ever could. Add to this a ****e road surface and a panic situation. ABS is a no brainer if its available. Only needs to work once to be worth it.

Both of my current bikes are non-abs by the way. My next one will definitely have ABS.

Lumen

ABS makes for a worse riding experience right up to the point that it saves you from a crash.

It also reduces or eliminates flat spots on the rear tyre.

KwackerJack

Never had a bike with ABS

I'm sure for a "new boxers" moment it's great!

However I often wondered if you've never driven a non abs bike and your abs fails for some reason will you fall off the next tine you hit the brakes as your expecting the abs to do the work??

CJhaughey

KwackerJack wrote: »

Never had a bike with ABS

I'm sure for a "new boxers" moment it's great!

However I often wondered if you've never driven a non abs bike and your abs fails for some reason will you fall off the next tine you hit the brakes as your expecting the abs to do the work??

I doubt it unless you are panic braking all the time.
Most ABS systems have a self check and will warn you if any part of the system is inoperative.
Since 2016 all bikes >125cc have it as standard, and the newest versions are capable of being used in corners.

Wonda-Boy

Del2005 wrote: »

An experienced rider in the dry will out brake an person on an ABS equipped bike. In all other circumstances the ABS will save you.

How so? Just curious thats all......

frozenfrozen

Wonda-Boy wrote: »

How so? Just curious thats all......

abs does a pulsing of brake on brake off, in theory a rider could hold the pressure exactly at the highest braking force possible and they could then stop shorter

BlackWizard

Not me and I've been driving for a while now..I know I'd screw it up. But in theory I'd agree but the problem there is that even professional moto GP riders are not allowed full electrics because they would make them better riders and take away the advantage that talented drivers have on track.

Edit: My point being you would need to be awfully talented and in a predictable scenario to do it. Unless the ABS itself is utter ****e

BillyBobBS

Riding bikes for over 20 years and have loads without ABS and only the one with it. My Sprint GT has ABS and it makes a huge difference in terms of safety imo. Iv'e force tested it a few times just to see and i can safely say any bike i'd buy from here on out will have it fitted. For me personally i don't find it intrusive at all in general day to day riding circumstances.

Wonda-Boy

frozenfrozen wrote: »

abs does a pulsing of brake on brake off, in theory a rider could hold the pressure exactly at the highest braking force possible and they could then stop shorter

I know how the ABS works Frosty, just curious how non ABS riders can stop quicker then ABS riders in the dry of course.

In fairness are we talking new technology or old skool ABS when it first came on the scene....?

The way I look at it, nowadays with the high level of sophistication on the ABS systems now the time it takes to stop a bike would be near identical....I have had both non ABS and ABS and I would deffo prefer an ABS bike. Obviously each to their own and it is a preference to the rider.

Not hating at all.

frozenfrozen

Wonda-Boy wrote: »

I know how the ABS works Frosty, just curious how non ABS riders can stop quicker then ABS riders in the dry of course.

In fairness are we talking new technology or old skool ABS when it first came on the scene....?

The way I look at it, nowadays with the high level of sophistication on the ABS systems now the time it takes to stop a bike would be near identical....I have had both non ABS and ABS and I would deffo prefer an ABS bike. Obviously each to their own and it is a preference to the rider.

Not hating at all.

I know exactly what you mean, I was just saying any difference in braking performance in a perfect rider vs abs would be down to a rider holding the pressure exactly on the edge of traction whereas ABS has to find a minuscule loss of traction and then pump off slightly with the pressure

there is cornering abs and all sorts of stuff now, no way an average rider would even come close to that

not having abs isn't a big deal to me and it isn't an option for bikes of my year but it would always be good to have on the road

Lumen

frozenfrozen wrote: »

I know exactly what you mean, I was just saying any difference in braking performance in a perfect rider vs abs would be down to a rider holding the pressure exactly on the edge of traction whereas ABS has to find a minuscule loss of traction and then pump off slightly with the pressure

I think maximum braking force is when there is a small amount of slippage.

I don't really understand ABS on motorbikes. In a car the ABS allows you to steer and brake at the same time, e.g. swerving round an obstacle whilst braking hard. On a motorbike it is presumably supposed to stop you dropping the bike.

frozenfrozen

I don't really know but as my best guess, it's still doing the exact same job, when the wheel locks under braking it lets off pressure to let the wheel spin again.

there are very fancy systems that take the rear wheel lifting up into account and paired with traction control / stability control / slide control and they very well could guarantee maximum braking performance in all conditions..

but if the entry level stuff probably doesn't take any of that into account and you could still go over the handlebars long before your front tyre loses traction, same as you could on a bike without abs

all that imaginary cheaper abs* would do is if you instantly grabbed a handful of brakes, it would stop you from washing out the front from under you like in this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rl7Wq80rkbA

*I have no actual idea the different levels of abs

CJhaughey

Motorcycle ABS is designed to stop excessive pressure on the front brake causing the front tyre to break traction with the road surface.
This is a cause of most hard breaking accidents where the rider grabs a handful of front brake and the front washes out and you go down.
The high end stuff has a 6 axis inertial managagement unit which takes into account angle of lean, if the back wheel is on the ground etc.
all this is done in milliseconds so you may not even be aware of it, the 6 axis units also handle cornering stability as well.
http://www.bosch-motorcycle.com/en/de/fahrsicherheit_fuer_zweiraeder/sicherheitssysteme_fuer_zweiraeder/motorrad_stabilitaetskontrolle/motorcycle_stability_control.html

Del2005

Wonda-Boy wrote: »

I know how the ABS works Frosty, just curious how non ABS riders can stop quicker then ABS riders in the dry of course.

In fairness are we talking new technology or old skool ABS when it first came on the scene....?

The way I look at it, nowadays with the high level of sophistication on the ABS systems now the time it takes to stop a bike would be near identical....I have had both non ABS and ABS and I would deffo prefer an ABS bike. Obviously each to their own and it is a preference to the rider.

Not hating at all.

In the dry and in a straight line an experienced biker would be able to lift the back wheel and stop on the stoppy, so they'd have a slightly shorter stopping distance. In all other circumstances the ABS will outbrake and save the rider.

faceman

When I first saw this thread title I thought this was going to be about stomach muscles and their use for riding!

I too have never has ABS on bikes. I remember when it was being touted as being a potential legal requirement a few years back there was noise about it being potentially unsafe on bikes. I guess that's no longer the case

Abu94

Del2005 wrote: »

In the dry and in a straight line an experienced biker would be able to lift the back wheel and stop on the stoppy, so they'd have a slightly shorter stopping distance. In all other circumstances the ABS will outbrake and save the rider.

It's never dry in Ireland.

frozenfrozen

Abu94 wrote: »

It's never dry in Ireland.

you can still stoppie in the wet

jay48

I never wanted a bike with abs but I got a cb1000r a few years back and the hrc colours only came with abs so I ended up getting it . I mainly do trackdays so when I tested the brakes in the paddock and the abs kicked in on not very heavy braking I was panicking as to what was going to happen on track at speed . On track in all kinds of conditions I managed to get it to kick in twice , once after braking after the bridge in mondello and once into Dunlop braking about 20 metres after the normal braking marker that is used . It didn't interfere at all under heavy braking on track so you wouldn't notice you had it but I could definitely see the benefits to having it on the road if something pulled out in front of you and you had to grab the brakes . It's not necessary but it's worth getting .

BKtje

Have always had bikes with it. Legal requirement here that all new bikes come with abs and since I've always bought new, I've always had it. I wouldn't want a bike without it as honestly i don't think I've ever used one without.

It's a bit like traction control. My bike has it but I can count on one hand the number of times I've actually felt it though I'm sure ABS has kicked in fairly often

gerrowadat

Attitudes seem to have turned on it in the last few years, I remember growing up you had lads swear off it because "more stuff to go wrong". The days of being able to service all parts of your bike with a bent screwdriver and a hammer are gone, which is no bad thing tbh.

The Nutty M

frozenfrozen wrote: »

you can still stoppie in the wet

Not with an ABS bike,not mine anyways. Neither can you do a rolling burnout with the bike either.

ABS is a good thing on/in any vehicle used normally. It's far better to be looking at it than for it when you really need it I think.

landmarkjohn

OP, If you have to ask, maybe new to biking, and can afford a later model bike with ABS then YES, absolutely do get a bike with ABS.

If you are a racer on sticky rubber and only going out on dry days then maybe not such and advantage. Real world biking.... anyone with a brain would opt for ABS.

Ardennes1944

BKtje wrote: »

Have always had bikes with it. Legal requirement here that all new bikes come with abs and since I've always bought new, I've always had it. I wouldn't want a bike without it as honestly i don't think I've ever used one without.

It's a bit like traction control. My bike has it but I can count on one hand the number of times I've actually felt it though I'm sure ABS has kicked in fairly often

Jaysus, would you look at that, theres a biker here thats only a couple of Kantons away

phildin

I've never ridden a bike with ABS so I don't know what the trade-off is but I can say that the only time I've come off my bike in 5 years was in a panic braking scenario. Would ABS have saved the day? I've no way to say but I'm sure it would have reduced the chances of me coming off.

My suggestion is that unless you happen to *know* that you can out-perform ABS, let the computer do the thinking for you. It was a "nice to have" for me on my current bike but I'll probably make a deal breaker on my next bike.

Happy biking.

Alfasudcrazy

I had a bad fall off a bike once - rear wheel had locked under fairly heavy braking. I never noticed it for ages as all I could hear was a strange hissing noise. By the time I realised what was going on the bike had begun to snake and I had to ditch it. I was not injured but to my horror the bike righted itself again and continued on riderless towards a parked car with people in it. Thankfully the bike fell before it collided with the car and the bike had only a few scratches on it.
Turned out I had braked on a bit of road that had a smooth tar surface and it was wet also.

Its reassuring to have abs on my current triumph Bonneville T120.

terrydel

frozenfrozen wrote: »

Wonda-Boy wrote: »

I know how the ABS works Frosty, just curious how non ABS riders can stop quicker then ABS riders in the dry of course.

In fairness are we talking new technology or old skool ABS when it first came on the scene....?

The way I look at it, nowadays with the high level of sophistication on the ABS systems now the time it takes to stop a bike would be near identical....I have had both non ABS and ABS and I would deffo prefer an ABS bike. Obviously each to their own and it is a preference to the rider.

Not hating at all.

I know exactly what you mean, I was just saying any difference in braking performance in a perfect rider vs abs would be down to a rider holding the pressure exactly on the edge of traction whereas ABS has to find a minuscule loss of traction and then pump off slightly with the pressure

there is cornering abs and all sorts of stuff now, no way an average rider would even come close to that

not having abs isn't a big deal to me and it isn't an option for bikes of my year but it would always be good to have on the road

Del2005 wrote: »

An experienced rider in the dry will out brake an person on an ABS equipped bike. In all other circumstances the ABS will save you.

Where do you get that from? ABS doesnt really even factor in until you've already made a mistake.
I've a ktm 990 with abs and i'll tell you now that it can and does outbrake pretty much any non abs bike in like for like situation. The brakes on it are phenomonal, abs or no abs.

frozenfrozen

tbh terry don't see what you're getting at. Nobody here is against ABS

terrydel

frozenfrozen wrote: »

tbh terry don't see what you're getting at. Nobody here is against ABS

Its fairly obvious, Im disagreeing with the statement that an experienced rider (on no abs) will outbrake a person on an abs bike in the dry. On many occasions they will not. Theres far more to it than 'abs or no abs', thats a blanket statement and blatantly untrue.

Lumen

terrydel wrote: »

Its fairly obvious, Im disagreeing with the statement that an experienced rider (on no abs) will outbrake a person on an abs bike in the dry. On many occasions they will not. Theres far more to it than 'abs or no abs', thats a blanket statement and blatantly untrue.

I think a rider with normal skill levels will be able to brake hard in a straight line in more or less the same distance with or without ABS, even in the wet. At least that's my experience on a bicycle - you can stoppie in a straight line pretty easily, even in the wet.

That's not really the issue. The issue is hard (emergency) braking while turning, which is really hard to get right on a motorbike, particularly in the wet.
Obviously you don't plan to be braking hard while turning, which is what marks it out as an emergency. In that case I'd guess almost nobody would prefer to be without ABS.

frozenfrozen

terrydel wrote: »

Its fairly obvious, Im disagreeing with the statement that an experienced rider (on no abs) will outbrake a person on an abs bike in the dry. On many occasions they will not. Theres far more to it than 'abs or no abs', thats a blanket statement and blatantly untrue.

you've got a shitty attitude there buddy good luck trying to have an argument with whoever could be bothered to put up with it

Skill Magill

Lumen wrote: »

I think a rider with normal skill levels will be able to brake hard in a straight line in more or less the same distance with or without ABS, even in the wet ABS.

There are no normal "Skill" levels, you either got it. or you don't

Skill Magill

Pugzilla

Skill Magill wrote: »

There are no normal "Skill" levels, you either got it. or you don't

Skill Magill

Load of bull****, no one is born with innate skill.

Professional racers have been on bikes since they could walk. Sure they have talent, but it's useless without building the needed experience. That goes for anything.

Skill Magill

Pugzilla wrote: »

Load of bull****, no one is born with innate skill.

Professional racers have been on bikes since they could walk. Sure they have talent, but it's useless without building the needed experience. That goes for anything.

chill dude, I'm Skill Magill, born with innate talent

scarebus03

For a modern ABS system which operates in milliseconds it is doubtful that any rider could produce the same affect when braking hard on a non-ABS equipped bike. My current bike doesn't have it but my next one will. A skilled rider may be able to stay on for the duration of the skid when braking hard or modulating between skids until the bike comes to a stop but he'll use more asphalt and rubber to get there than a rider at the same skill level with ABS.

In short if money is no blocker then go ABS.


Cheers

Wonda-Boy

Thats why I made the point of saying that the earliest ABS systems would be very basic and a rider would indeed outbrake and ABS system. But todays technology I seriously doubt humans would do a better job.

CJhaughey

Wonda-Boy wrote: »

Thats why I made the point of saying that the earliest ABS systems would be very basic and a rider would indeed outbrake and ABS system. But todays technology I seriously doubt humans would do a better job.

Unless your co-ordination is that advanced that you can detect wheel slippage at 100 x per second the computer will always beat a human.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHRWg91hv-M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJ_UkAFW6cA

batman_oh

scarebus03 wrote: »

For a modern ABS system which operates in milliseconds it is doubtful that any rider could produce the same affect when braking hard on a non-ABS equipped bike. My current bike doesn't have it but my next one will. A skilled rider may be able to stay on for the duration of the skid when braking hard or modulating between skids until the bike comes to a stop but he'll use more asphalt and rubber to get there than a rider at the same skill level with ABS.

In short if money is no blocker then go ABS.


Cheers

On track on a modern sportsbike the ABS in definitely not as good when setting lap times. Everybody that races at any level will remove it as the system intervenes too early. Have a read of any test of sportsbike on track and you will see this. This months Performance Bikes has both the R1M and Fireblade SP receiving poor marks for the brakes from Michael Rutter due to ABS that can't be turned off. Suzuki had to disconnect the ABS on the new GSXR1000 at the launch in Philip Island as it was causing the bike to run wide in a lot of the fast corner entries.
On the road for the normal person it should basically be the same as a non ABS set up on the same bike as they will use the same braking set ups (maybe a slight difference in feel/lever travel). What it does is give a safety net for panic braking - especially in the wet. If you aren't locking the wheel or activating it, it is doing nothing so I'm not sure how it can be better? (or worse).

There's a supernaked bike group test on Youtube done by Bike World where they actually test the ABS (intentionally lock the front wheel) - some of the results are surprising. Like the 1290 Superduke which has theoretically the best brakes, basically free wheeling an extra 10 yards and finishing up much worse off than the other bikes due to how the ABS works. I've never seen any magazine actually test the ABS before - stopping normally is not using it.

Lumen

batman_oh wrote: »

On track on a modern sportsbike the ABS in definitely not as good when setting lap times. Everybody that races at any level will remove it as the system intervenes too early.

Yes, but on a track braking is planned extremely far in advance compared to where you would need ABS on the road, and in the most common "emergency" situations (e.g. the rider in front dropping the bike in the wet near an apex) you're on the limit of grip and so braking isn't going to help at all.

I don't think it's controversial to suggest that if you rode on the road as you would on the track you'd be dead in no time.

Muahahaha

Never had ABS but would like it on my next bike. Anyone know what year it became more mainstream? Im thinking of buying a used R6 or CBR next year as a second bike and would like it to have it.

Pugzilla

Muahahaha wrote: »

Never had ABS but would like it on my next bike. Anyone know what year it became more mainstream? Im thinking of buying a used R6 or CBR next year as a second bike and would like it to have it.

CBR600RR and CBR1000RR first got ABS as an option in 2009, R6 only got ABS this year.

Motorbike ABS became mandatory for all new models in the EU from 2016 on wards.

antiskeptic

ABS, traction control, collision prediction systems ... and eventually, auto-driving systems.

They all make sense in themselves but also lead further and further away from what motorcycling is about. Motorcycling is at least about mastering a challenge where one of the constraints to be faced involves danger.

The more you dilute the constraint, the more you dilute the challenge, the end point being a stripped-out, fast-food version of motorcycling.

Compare: having navigated a challenging section of road using your own skills at traction control and braking, knowing that your safety depended upon you and your finding the right balance between own skill and speed.

And knowing that a computerdidit.

All this technology is fine if you're commuting and want the practicality of a bike and the safety of a car. But for motorcycling?

Pugzilla

antiskeptic wrote: »

All this technology is fine if you're commuting and want the practicality of a bike and the safety of a car. But for motorcycling?

What to say?

I remember you from years ago comparing motorcycling to point duty in Vietnam.

Pugzilla

Let's stop wearing helmets and gear altogether. Those Moto GP and IOM racers are pussies after all.

Pugzilla

Also go back to suicide clutches because they're for real hard men.

antiskeptic

Pugzilla wrote: »

What to say?

I remember you from years ago comparing motorcycling to point duty in Vietnam.

A far more realistic end of the spectrum to occupy than carefree-wind-in-your-hai **BANG**

antiskeptic

Pugzilla wrote: »

Let's stop wearing helmets and gear altogether. Those Moto GP and IOM racers are pussies after all.

.

So, sat upon an auto-driving (or riding) motorcycle. Would you still consider yourself a motorcyclist?

As I say, the more you move in the direction of technology riding for you, the more you leave motorcycling behind. Pick whereever it is you want to be on the spectrum, by all means - I was merely making an observation about the cost of the benefit.

Would anyone learn how to brake a motorcycle if the motorcycle circumvents the need to learn how to brake?

Pugzilla

antiskeptic wrote: »

.

Would anyone learn how to brake a motorcycle if the motorcycle circumvents the need to learn how to brake?

Unless you're a professional racer, who are you trying to impress with your braking skills? Nobody gives a ****e. A computer will out brake anyone on this forum.

Any technology that increases your odds of coming home alive and not being f~cked off your bike during an emergency stop should be welcomed.

CJhaughey

The issue is that modern bikes make so much power that there is too much to manage for the average rider.
Sportsbikes making 200+ with a fat torque curve rely on the rider being experienced enough to control the throttle on a wet and greasy corner with cold tyres.
Coming into a corner a bit fast and asking for more braking than the tyre can give is another reason for rider aids.
I don't have any ABS on my bikes but I wouldn't be afraid of having it if I could on a newer bike.