Push bike with retrofit engine, grey area

Fred Swanson

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K.Flyer

GM228 wrote: »

I’ll put this to bed once and for all.
[....]
Any MPV requires insurance, but to be a MPV for the purposes of the RTA a vehicle must be capable of propulsion by mechanical means, if it is pedal assist only, it can’t move under it’s own power as the pedalling is still required and is regarded as the source of propulsion because when you stop pedalling so does the propulsion. But take a throttle type assist bike - as no pedalling is required and it can move under it’s own power without pedalling it is then in that case considered a MPV and requires insurance.
[...]
There is no vehicle licence category in Irish law or EU law for a moped under 25 km/h, in fact it isn’t even classified as a “moped” when under 25 km/h as per the definition of moped already shown. Any so-called moped under 25 km/h is classified as a “powered cycle”[...]

So based on that information would it be safe to say that these bicycles with engines bolted into them are not classified as Mopeds considering,
A. Engine size is 80cc.
B. The are capable of speeds in excess of 25 km/h.
C. Have a throttle control for variable speed.

Pushbikes with engines

Therefore licence insurance etc would be a legal requirement to use on a public road?

Fred Swanson

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blade1

I'd like to see one that can't do 25km/h.
Certainly anyone I have seen was doing more than that.
I could run that quick.

GM228

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

B1 licence is for 4 wheel quadricycles (up to 400kg unladen) in the UK.

Hotblack Desiato

GM228 wrote: »

if it is pedal assist only, it can’t move under it’s own power as the pedalling is still required and is regarded as the source of propulsion because when you stop pedalling so does the propulsion. But take a throttle type assist bike - as no pedalling is required and it can move under it’s own power without pedalling it is then in that case considered a MPV and requires insurance. In any case a pedal assist cycle is legally defined as a “powered cycle” as opposed to a “mechanically propelled vehicle” under Irish law and therefore exempt from MPV requirements – see below.

Thank you for the links and clarifying on this specific point.
If it has a throttle, it's a mechanically propelled vehicle.
As far as I'm aware the old class of restricted Dutch mopeds always had throttles, and could be ridden at age 13.
It'd be hard to imagine a combustion engine arrangement that would only operate when pedalling and not require a throttle. Easily done with an electric motor of course, but not all electrically assisted bicycles are legal either!

MSVforever

There were factory built bicycles in Germany before those electric bicycles came on the market. I think they were around 30cc and top speed was 20 kph (the Dutch version went up to 25 kph) AFAIK no license and helmet were needed but you had to buy a license plate from an insurance which cost about €25 per annum. My 80 year old grandmother used to have one. Great for the old bones...lol... I think they are called Saxonette... Was a typical Dutch bicycle with an engine in the rear wheel..…

The bikes you see in Dublin are €100 Halfords finest with 49 or 80cc engines attached. Total death traps imo.

K.Flyer

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

[...]
It'd be hard to imagine a combustion engine arrangement that would only operate when pedalling and not require a throttle. Easily done with an electric motor of course, but not all electrically assisted bicycles are legal either!

It could be done if configured like a lawnmower engine, pedalling or cord pull start with the carb set up in the same way to run at a set rpm to keep speed restricted.
Some learner go-carts are set up in a similar way.

AlekSmart

MSVforever wrote: »

There were factory built bicycles in Germany before those electric bicycles came on the market. I think they were around 30cc and top speed was 20 kph (the Dutch version went up to 25 kph) AFAIK no license and helmet were needed but you had to buy a license plate from an insurance which cost about €25 per annum. My 80 year old grandmother used to have one. Great for the old bones...lol... I think they are called Saxonette... Was a typical Dutch bicycle with an engine in the rear wheel..…

The bikes you see in Dublin are €100 Halfords finest with 49 or 80cc engines attached. Total death traps imo.

There is little doubt in my mind that one of these infernal machines,and its rider,will feature in a fatal incident in and around the new LUAS BXD line when it opens.

This event WHEN it occurs,will lead to the issue being clarified tout-suite,however until then our National admiration for Admiral Lord Nelson's ability to put his blind eye to the telescope will continue unabated.....:rolleyes:

Goose81

The issue I see is what is the difference between these an electric assisted bikes that companies such as BMW offer

Both doing the same thing but one by combustion and another by electric

Fred Swanson

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Lumen

Goose81 wrote: »

The issue I see is what is the difference between these an electric assisted bikes that companies such as BMW offer

Both doing the same thing but one by combustion and another by electric

The distinction is pedal assist.

Goose81

Lumen wrote: »

The distinction is pedal assist.

You can still pedal these bike with combustion engine can't you

punisher5112

Goose81 wrote: »

You can still pedal these bike with combustion engine can't you

Yes but extremely difficult with added weight.

Lumen

Goose81 wrote: »

You can still pedal these bike with combustion engine can't you

It's not just that you can pedal, it's that the power is fed in as a response to you pedalling. As far as I know these ICE kits all have a simple throttle control, like a motorcycle, which makes them a motorcycle.

Alfasudcrazy

Id like to hear the retort from an insurance company when you go in asking to insure your mountain bike that you had just fitted a lawnmower engine to!

two wheels good

Gardai don't consider it a grey area. Link

Fred Swanson

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stewygriffin

I fooking hate these death traps and how people seem to think they are all Rossi or Marquez on them with how they use them on pathways and roads.

These and those poxy rickshaws too.

Ban them all and be done with it.

D3V!L

two wheels good wrote: »

Gardai don't consider it a grey area. Link

They're a "grey area" for people that want them to be so they can plead ignorance and ignore the clear law on these death traps.