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Push bike with retrofit engine, grey area

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    #2
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Mr Snow wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/GardaTraffic/status/892699298214883328

    I said it before I couldn't believe how I was told by the garda twitter last year there was no issue with these.

    I contacted many over the sales and use on public roads/paths and told no issue;-)

    Great to see they came to their senses.


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    #3
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,282 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    I said it before I couldn't believe how I was told by the garda twitter last year there was no issue with these.

    I contacted many over the sales and use on public roads/paths and told no issue;-)

    Great to see they came to their senses.

    Its a bit odd as I though, like those electric scooters that because you cant start from 0 under motor power that they werent MPV's , you have to pedal them a bit then the engine can kick in above 5mph ,


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    #4
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    Its a bit odd as I though, like those electric scooters that because you cant start from 0 under motor power that they werent MPV's , you have to pedal them a bit then the engine can kick in above 5mph ,

    80cc engines fitted on most is a big no.


    Them engines will easily move one off.

    Engine must be 49cc or smaller and as you said assist not take over completely.


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    #5
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,508 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Up to 49cc is a moped requiring an AM licence, helmet, number plate, lights, horn, certificate of conformity, insurance, motor tax, motorcycle theory test and IBT. Think again.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #6
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Up to 49cc is a moped requiring an AM licence, helmet, number plate, lights, horn, certificate of conformity, insurance, motor tax, motorcycle theory test and IBT. Think again.

    Look up the NSU from years back it was a pedal assist with a motor but you had to pedal to get it going.


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    #7
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,508 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    Look up the NSU from years back it was a pedal assist with a motor but you had to pedal to get it going.

    Pedal start or kick start is irrelevant, it's legally a motorcycle.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #8
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Pedal start or kick start is irrelevant, it's legally a motorcycle.

    Incorrect, to be legally a motorcycle the vehicle must be more than 50cc and have a speed greater than 45 km/h.


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    #9
    Pugzilla
    Site Banned Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭Pugzilla


    GM228 wrote: »
    Incorrect, to be legally a motorcycle the vehicle must be more than 50cc and have a speed greater than 45 km/h.

    AM Licence category is for mopeds with a max speed of 45km/hour. They need to be taxed and insured.


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    #10
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Pugzilla wrote: »
    AM Licence category is for mopeds with a max speed of 45km/hour. They need to be taxed and insured.

    Yes, AM licence is for "mopeds", but with a speed of over 25 km/h to 45 km/h.

    My post was in relation to Hotblack Desiato post - mopeds are not legally motorcycles.


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    #11
    K.Flyer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,565 ✭✭✭K.Flyer


    Pugzilla wrote: »
    AM Licence category is for mopeds with a max speed of 45km/hour. They need to be taxed and insured.

    A member of AGS on the radio earlier speaking about it.
    Basically he said that if it has an engine that propels it then as a mechanically propelled vehicle, irrespective of it being a modified bicycle, moped or whatever you want to call it, and it is being used on public roads, then the appropriate documents, licence, insurance and tax are required as well as the correct lights and a helmet.
    He also told of someone caught riding one while under the influence, he was charged and subsequently banned.


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    #12
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,508 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    GM228 wrote: »
    Incorrect, to be legally a motorcycle the vehicle must be more than 50cc and have a speed greater than 45 km/h.

    AM (what people call mopeds, whether they have pedals or not) are legally motorcycles, class A2 are motorcycles, class A are motorcycles.

    Some EU countries have a definition of 'moped' which is allowed to be ridden by under-16s without a licence, this does not exist in Irish law and there is no legal distinction between mopeds, scooters or motorcyles. They are all MPVs and require the appropriate driving licence, insurance, motor tax etc.

    tossy wrote: »
    The sooner the gaurds tweet somethnig new the better FFS lads.

    :)

    A lot of people seem to be applying wishful thinking to the law, no harm in clarifying that.

    One of the most annoying things about being a motorcyclist in Ireland is being lectured about it by bar stool experts who have never swung a leg over one and don't have the first clue :rolleyes:

    markc1184 wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/GardaTraffic/status/893195703744425985

    Be grand, I don't drive one of those hybrids :p

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #13
    Pugzilla
    Site Banned Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭Pugzilla


    Motorbikes are dangerous!


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    #14
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,508 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Pugzilla wrote: »
    Motorbikes are dangerous!

    Getting out of bed is dangerous, someone call the bed safety police...

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #15
    Pugzilla
    Site Banned Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭Pugzilla


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Pugzilla wrote: »
    Motorbikes are dangerous!

    Getting out of bed is dangerous, someone call the bed safety police...

    Got a gixxer 750. We're singing from the same hymn sheet.


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    #16
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,508 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Pugzilla wrote: »
    Got a gixxer 750. We're singing from the same hymn sheet.

    You need to get something bigger with a bit of torque :pac:

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #17
    Pugzilla
    Site Banned Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭Pugzilla


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    You need to get something bigger with a bit of torque :pac:

    Not in a world filled with poverty spec diesels.


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    #18
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    GM228 wrote: »
    Incorrect, to be legally a motorcycle the vehicle must be more than 50cc and have a speed greater than 45 km/h.

    AM (what people call mopeds, whether they have pedals or not) are legally motorcycles, class A2 are motorcycles, class A are motorcycles.

    Some EU countries have a definition of 'moped' which is allowed to be ridden by under-16s without a licence, this does not exist in Irish law and there is no legal distinction between mopeds, scooters or motorcyles. They are all MPVs and require the appropriate driving licence, insurance, motor tax etc.

    Mopeds and motorcycles are legally defined in every EU country in accordance with EU law - and are transposed into Irish law.

    If you think my statement is incorrect have a look at the legal definition of "motorcycle" in accordance with EU and Irish law.
    motorcycles, i.e. two-wheel vehicles without a sidecar (category L3e) or with a sidecar (category L4e), fitted with an engine having a cylinder capacity of more than 50 cm3 if of the internal combustion type and/or having a maximum design speed of more than 45 km/h


    Not all are classed as MPVs and "mopeds" under 25 km/h do not need a licence and depending on assist only or independantly powered do not need insurance either.


    Categories of moped, motorcycle and cycle:-
    EU Law - EU Regulation 168/2013

    IRISH Law - European Union (Two or Three Wheel Motor Vehicles and Quadricycles Type-Approval) Regulations 2015.

    Driving Licences:-
    EU Law - Directive 2006/126/EC

    IRISH Law - Road Traffic (Licensing of Drivers) Regulations 2006 (as amended).

    It amazes me how there is so much confusion when it comes to this topic.


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    #19
    Cheensbo
    Registered Users Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭Cheensbo


    What's truly amazing is how far people will take the discussion on what constitutes a moped or a motorbike. On a garda twitter feed thread, in the motors forum.

    Less shítetalk more garda arses!


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    #20
    boardsuser1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,196 ✭✭✭boardsuser1


    Cheensbo wrote: »
    What's truly amazing is how far people will take the discussion on what constitutes a moped or a motorbike. On a garda twitter feed thread, in the motors forum.

    Less shítetalk more garda arses!

    I'm surprised the journal.ie didn't pick up on that in here :pac:


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    #21
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #22
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,508 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    GM228 wrote: »
    Mopeds and motorcycles are legally defined in every EU country in accordance with EU law - and are transposed into Irish law.

    If you think my statement is incorrect have a look at the legal definition of "motorcycle" in accordance with EU and Irish law.

    We were talking about driver licensing, your (unsourced) quote appears to be from excise legislation.
    Not all are classed as MPVs and "mopeds" under 25 km/h do not need a licence and depending on assist only or independantly powered do not need insurance either.

    In the Netherlands yes. Not in Ireland.
    Driving Licences:-
    EU Law - Directive 2006/126/EC

    Yes that's the current driver licensing directive. No mention of any category of mechanically propelled vehicle being licence exempt.
    IRISH Law - Road Traffic (Licensing of Drivers) Regulations 2006 (as amended).

    Not in there. Please provide a link to the actual, Irish legislation which states what you say it does.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #23
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    I’ll put this to bed once and for all.

    Hotblack Desiato, many regulars on the forum may have figured out by now that motoring (and many things related) is my specialty when it comes to the law. What I have stated is correct, is represented by Irish law (in accordance with EU law), and not from excise legislation as you suspect. There is a massive amount of confusion/wrong information about the subject.

    My apologies, I forgot to give the links to the relevant legislation in my previous post, but I’ll break it all down here for you.

    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    GM228 wrote: »
    Mopeds and motorcycles are legally defined in every EU country in accordance with EU law - and are transposed into Irish law.

    If you think my statement is incorrect have a look at the legal definition of "motorcycle" in accordance with EU and Irish law
    We were talking about driver licensing, your (unsourced) quote appears to be from excise legislation.

    I do know that this is in relation to licences. The definition I quoted is the specific definition afforded by Irish legislation in accordance with the EU directive and regulation in relation to both vehicle classification and driver licensing requirements.


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Not all are classed as MPVs and "mopeds" under 25 km/h do not need a licence and depending on assist only or independantly powered do not need insurance either.
    In the Netherlands yes. Not in Ireland.

    Which part are you saying “not in Ireland” to? The under 25 km/h part of the no insurance part, both are provided for in Irish legislation (and every other EU country - I could even quote you every EU countries appropriate legislation).

    Any MPV requires insurance, but to be a MPV for the purposes of the RTA a vehicle must be capable of propulsion by mechanical means, if it is pedal assist only, it can’t move under it’s own power as the pedalling is still required and is regarded as the source of propulsion because when you stop pedalling so does the propulsion. But take a throttle type assist bike - as no pedalling is required and it can move under it’s own power without pedalling it is then in that case considered a MPV and requires insurance. In any case a pedal assist cycle is legally defined as a “powered cycle” as opposed to a “mechanically propelled vehicle” under Irish law and therefore exempt from MPV requirements – see below.


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Driving Licences:-
    EU Law - Directive 2006/126/EC
    Yes that's the current driver licensing directive. No mention of any category of mechanically propelled vehicle being licence exempt.
    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    IRISH Law - Road Traffic (Licensing of Drivers) Regulations 2006 (as amended).
    Not in there. Please provide a link to the actual, Irish legislation which states what you say it does.

    I’ll take both of these together.

    The Road Traffic (Licensing of Drivers) Regulations 2006, were amended by the Road Traffic (Licensing of Drivers) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2011 to take account of the current EU driving licence and classification of vehicles requirements required under EU Directive 2006/126/EC which is in relation to driver licences and what they entail.


    Regulation 2 of the 2011 regulations amended Regulation 6 of the 2006 regulations to afford the new licence categories:-
    A. Motorcycles.
    Motor tricycles.

    A1. Motorcycles with an engine capacity not exceeding 125 cubic centimetres, with a power rating not exceeding 11 kW and with a power to weight ratio not exceeding 0.1 kW/kg.Motor tricycles with a power rating not exceeding 15 kW.

    A2. Motorcycles with a power rating not exceeding 35 kW, with a power to weight ratio not exceeding 0.2 kW/kg and not derived from a vehicle of more than double its power.

    AM. Mopeds.
    Light Quadricycles.


    <SNIP>


    And of course Regulation 2 of the 2011 regulations also amended Regulation 3(1) of the 2006 regulations as follows to give your definitions for “moped” and “motorcycle” for the purposes of licensing categories:-
    ‘moped’ means—

    (a) a two-wheel vehicle or three-wheel vehicle with a maximum design speed of more than 25 km/h but not more than 45 km/h, or

    (b) a light quadricycle,

    as defined in Article 1(2)(a) and Article 1(3)(a) respectively of Directive 2002/24/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 18 March 2002
    ‘motorcycle’ means a two-wheel vehicle, with or without a sidecar, as defined in Article 1(2)(b) of Directive 2002/24/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 18 March 2002


    As you can see both EU Directive 2006/126/EC (Article 4) and the Road Traffic (Licensing of Drivers) Regulations 2006 (as amended) afford the definition of “moped” and “motorcycle” as per Articles 1(2)(a), 1(2)(b) and 1(3)(a) (1(3)(a) deals with quadricycles) of EU Directive 2002/24/EC as follows:-
    Article 1(2)(a) wrote:
    The vehicles referred to in paragraph 1 shall be divided into:

    ( a) mopeds, i.e. two-wheel vehicles (category L1e) or three-wheel vehicles (category L2e) with a maximum design speed of not more than 45 km/h and characterised by:

    ( i) in the case of the two-wheel type, an engine whose:
    - cylinder capacity does not exceed 50 cm3 in the case of the internal combustion type, or
    - maximum continuous rated power is no more than 4 kW in the case of an electric motor;

    ( ii) in the case of the three-wheel type, an engine whose:
    - cylinder capacity does not exceed 50 cm3 if of the spark (positive) ignition type, or
    - maximum net power output does not exceed 4 kW in the case of other internal combustion engines, or
    - maximum continuous rated power does not exceed 4 kW in the case of an electric motor
    Article 1(2)(b) wrote:
    motorcycles, i.e. two-wheel vehicles without a sidecar (category L3e) or with a sidecar (category L4e), fitted with an engine having a cylinder capacity of more than 50 cm3 if of the internal combustion type and/or having a maximum design speed of more than 45 km/h


    So where does the 25 km/h exemption come from? Again as per EU Directive 2006/126/EC, Part 1 of the Schedule to the 2011 regulations amended Schedule 5 of the 2006 regulations as follows:-
    Category: AM
    Vehicles in Category: Two-wheel vehicles or three-wheel vehicles, not capable of being manually propelled, with a maximum design speed of not more than 45 km/h (excluding those with a maximum design speed under or equal to 25 km/h) and with an engine capacity not exceeding 50 cms3
    There is no vehicle licence category in Irish law or EU law for a moped under 25 km/h, in fact it isn’t even classified as a “moped” when under 25 km/h as per the definition of moped already shown. Any so-called moped under 25 km/h is classified as a “powered cycle” under Annex I of EU Regulation 168/2013, which has been transposed (despite not needing to as it's a regulation) into Irish law under the European Union (Two or Three Wheel Motor Vehicles and Quadricycles Type-Approval) Regulations 2015.


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    #24
    tossy
    Registered Users Posts: 9,590 ✭✭✭tossy


    Stop. Just stop.


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    #25
    Pugzilla
    Site Banned Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭Pugzilla


    Saw a Reliant Robin a few weeks. Are they driven with a car or bike licence considering the three wheels?


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    #26
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Pugzilla wrote: »
    Saw a Reliant Robin a few weeks. Are they driven with a car or bike licence considering the three wheels?

    Car.


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    #27
    Nekarsulm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,204 ✭✭✭✭Nekarsulm


    My mate drive a truck. Trying to get through Carrick on Shannon today, traffic was gridlocked. He eventually rang the Gardai to see what was up, or if they could attend to try and get things moving.

    They told him they couldn't go down town from the Station, because they'd no car! :D


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    #28
    Riva10
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭Riva10


    Nekarsulm wrote: »
    My mate drive a truck. Trying to get through Carrick on Shannon today, traffic was gridlocked. He eventually rang the Gardai to see what was up, or if they could attend to try and get things moving.

    They told him they couldn't go down town from the Station, because they'd no car! :D
    No Moped or Bicycle ? ;)


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    #29
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,553 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Pugzilla wrote: »
    Saw a Reliant Robin a few weeks. Are they driven with a car or bike licence considering the three wheels?

    In Ireland, you always needed a car licence.

    However, in the UK, they were in a grey area. Three wheeler vehicles were originally a motorcycle with a side-car., so required a motorcycle licence. However, the likes of Morgan (still in existence and still making such cars) developed a three wheel car that had two wheels at the front and a driven wheel at the back. Now can these be driven by someone with a UK motorcycle licence? Well, Yes and No. Yes if it did not have a reverse gear (as a motorcycle with a sidecar would not have had). No if it had a reverse gear as a four wheel car.

    Now the Reliant Robin grew in popularity, particularly in mining areas of the UK where miners learnt to ride a motorbike but could not afford a car, When they could afford a car, they did not have a licence, but they could afford a Robin and did have a licence to drive one. That rule never did not apply in Ireland.

    Morgan showed a 3 wheeler at the Geneva Motor Show in 2011 which was to be imported into he US as a motorcycle. Not sure what happened to it, but I once saw one on the M40 near Oxford - driven by what I assumed to be a very brave driver.


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    #30
    frozenfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 7,882 ✭✭✭frozenfrozen


    since this thread has been split and moved into the motorbike forum rather than cycling I think that decides that these are definitely motorbikes

    the end


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    #31
    shootermcgee
    Registered Users Posts: 87 ✭✭shootermcgee


    One lad in tipperary got fined because it said on the paper that it was a danger to the public


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