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How to get made redundant?

  • 30-07-2017 1:01pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 513 ✭✭✭St1mpMeister


    Thought that title would grab some attention :pac:

    I'm in a dead-end job working in software and plan to leave soon, but my ideal situation would be if they let me go and I got redundancy payment (for which I qualify), as I plan to investigate working abroad and the redundancy would help cover costs while I travel around searching/interviewing.

    My skillset is such that I'd have 0 trouble getting another job, but obviously I don't want a bad record on my references. I'm a senior dev with 15 years experience and the last time I put my CV on Monster.ie I received 40 calls in one day, so not too worried about getting other work in Ireland. The tricky part is that I'd like to work abroad so want time to travel there and see what the place is like before applying.


    Now the company know I'm not happy in the job (as evident by my vocal shouting matches with the patronising IT manager, and the relatively slow pace I'm working at since I'm frankly bored), yet I am surprised they haven't yet pulled me aside to say it's not working out. I suspect they are expecting me to quit.

    Is there a way to instil a seed of doubt in their minds that leads them to believe it would be better to get someone to replace me, that doesn't involve me blatantly being undisciplined (e.g. squatting over the IT manager's desk to take a dookie) ?

    One idea I'm thinking of is just to tell them something not committal like "I MAY be scouting out other jobs as I don't feel my skillset is being utilised fully here". This would hopefully plant a seed of doubt in their mind to find someone more permanent before the next 6 month project kicks in.

    Any other suggestions?


«1

Comments

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,377 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    Redundancy is for the position and not the person; so short of them reorganizing the department and removing your position you're not going to get a redundancy payment.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,641 ✭✭✭Teyla Emmagan


    If they're not offering redundancy you haven't a hope. They will just wait for you to quit. Just don't hang around hoping for redundancy. I know people who stayed somewhere they hated for ten years hoping for that. Better to quit and start with a fresh slate.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 513 ✭✭✭St1mpMeister


    Nody wrote: »
    Redundancy is for the position and not the person; so short of them reorganizing the department and removing your position you're not going to get a redundancy payment.

    just to give some perspective, it's a small company so no "departments" per se.

    There are about 4 developers and I'm the only senior one, so they would look to replace me asap if I left as projects are piling up. I replaced a guy that was in this position before me.

    Anyway I might mention the possibility of leaving to them, and see what they say. No harm in it since I'll be leaving anyway!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 513 ✭✭✭St1mpMeister


    If they're not offering redundancy you haven't a hope.

    Isn't redundancy essentially what you get when you are "asked to leave"?

    I assumed you get it whenever you get let go (assuming you qualify), regardless if the word "redundancy" is used or not.




  • Isn't redundancy essentially what you get when you are "asked to leave"?

    I assumed you get it whenever you get let go (assuming you qualify), regardless if the word "redundancy" is used or not.

    I think you are misunderstanding what redundancy is. The position in a company has to be made redundant, not the person.

    If you leave, and they hire someone to replace you, then redundancy simply does not apply. I can't see at all how what you're asking here is going to happen. If you tell them you're going to leave they may offer you more money to stay, wouldn't be uncommon, but paying you to leave because you're unhappy? If something sounds too good to be true etc.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    I don't think you understand what redundancy is. A position is redundant when it no longer exists, therefore if you were to leave, would they have to replace you? If the answer is yes, then a redundancy situation does not exist.

    You can either quit and move on, or you can continue to agitate/go slow and they may eventually manage you out.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,378 ✭✭✭CeilingFly


    So you plan to leave soon, but would like to scam redundancy from them?

    That's called fraud in my book.


    As the company now has to foot entire redundancy payment (it used to be part funded by dept social welfare) you've no chance.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,584 ✭✭✭✭Creamy Goodness


    15 years experience but you're acting like a child. Hope I don't come across you in my career (in the same industry).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 612 ✭✭✭Ocean Blue


    Isn't redundancy essentially what you get when you are "asked to leave"?

    I assumed you get it whenever you get let go (assuming you qualify), regardless if the word "redundancy" is used or not.

    If you are performance managed out (sacked) following the correct disciplinary procedure, you will likely get nothing more than normal pay until you leave.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,238 ✭✭✭✭Dial Hard


    You're looking for a golden handshake, not redundancy. I know two people who've managed it (one twice, believe it or not) but they were in fairly unique circumstances. If the company thinks they can just wait you out, they will.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,102 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Isn't redundancy essentially what you get when you are "asked to leave"?

    I assumed you get it whenever you get let go (assuming you qualify), regardless if the word "redundancy" is used or not.

    No being "Asked to Leave" means that they are firing you for either not doing your job satisfactorily, which you aren't due to slow work, or indiscipline, which you are doing by shouting at a co worker. So you are working towards getting fired not made redundant.

    You need to either start working again and be more respectful to co workers or hand in your notice and leave. Because your current attitude will result in being let go and then no reference.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭Avatar MIA


    Dial Hard wrote: »
    You're looking for a golden handshake

    More like a golden boot.

    It's possible, especially in very profitable small companies without much management experience. If they had sense they'd manage you out over a few months.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 194 ✭✭Atticus Jung


    You wont, best outcome is you'll get sacked. For everyones sake, leave. Save up a few quid or get a small loan to cover you travel costs. You may even realise that its not too bad. Suck it up or you'll be stuck there making others miserable for for the rest of your career.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,292 ✭✭✭Galadriel


    Isn't redundancy essentially what you get when you are "asked to leave"?

    I assumed you get it whenever you get let go (assuming you qualify), regardless if the word "redundancy" is used or not.

    They are not going to sack you and pay you to leave, they can just sack you!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭Avatar MIA


    Galadriel wrote: »
    just sack you!

    Not a particularly easy course of action that can be taken in Ireland without potentially ending up before the WRC. Managed out? Sure.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 513 ✭✭✭St1mpMeister


    Ocean Blue wrote: »
    If you are performance managed out (sacked) following the correct disciplinary procedure, you will likely get nothing more than normal pay until you leave.

    Learn something new, thanks :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,498 ✭✭✭Lu Tze


    If you can write some software that can do your job, then your position is redundant! Best of luck!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 513 ✭✭✭St1mpMeister


    Lu Tze wrote: »
    If you can write some software that can do your job, then your position is redundant! Best of luck!

    In reality, that's probably only a few years away :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭Arcade_Tryer


    Tell them you want to leave as the pay isn't high enough, and sit back and hear what they have to say?

    Sounds like you have a strong market position; time to start exerting it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,378 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    Redundancy is an extra cost for a company with no return - the equivalent of burning money except in some cases there is no choice but to offer it.
    So the answer to the ops question is that he needs to make the software so buggy that sales will drop and staff will have to be let go, but not so buggy that the company has to close completely and have no money to pay out redundancy.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    why doesn't OP just fcekin quit already.
    work down his notice and leave. People do it all the time.
    Can you imagine working with someone like that...

    If he isn't careful he'll be managed out with less favourable consequences than leaving on his own terms.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,004 ✭✭✭mitresize5


    If I was your manager I'd be getting you on a well warranted Performance Improvement Plan.

    Then I'd let you decide if this is something you wanted on your record with us and all the onward connotations regarding references, or you decided it was best to take up one of those 40 jobs offers that would be winging their way to you.

    Your being extremely unprofessional by effectively working to rule


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,988 ✭✭✭jacksie66


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 215 ✭✭Misguided1


    just to give some perspective, it's a small company so no "departments" per se.

    There are about 4 developers and I'm the only senior one, so they would look to replace me asap if I left as projects are piling up. I replaced a guy that was in this position before me.

    Anyway I might mention the possibility of leaving to them, and see what they say. No harm in it since I'll be leaving anyway!

    The bit in bold is the important part. If they would replace you then the role is not redundant. The work still needs to be done by someone. As already said, a role becomes redundant and then the incumbent. Your role is not redundant by the sounds of it, you just want them to pay you to leave. May as well call it as it is.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,580 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    I plan to investigate working abroad and the redundancy would help cover costs while I travel around searching/interviewing.
    Some employers will pay interview and/or relocation expenses and/or pay signing bonuses.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 396 ✭✭murria


    Could you let your boss know that you would be interested if any redundancies were being offered in your area? I did this once, my boss was surprised as he had no idea I was thinking of leaving, i was a good worker and had a good relationship with most staff. He came back to me with an offer, which was less than I hoped for, but I accepted as my heart wasnt in the job anymore.

    You sound like you have one foot out the door already and it would be nice to leave with a few quid, but if there is no redundacy payment available it sounds like you will have no problem getting another job. Theres no harm in asking nicely, they can only say yes or no.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 208 ✭✭dunleakelleher


    rching/interviewing.

    but obviously I don't want a bad record on my references.


    (as evident by my vocal shouting matches with the patronising IT manager, and the relatively slow pace I'm working at since I'm frankly bored),



    If you keep that attitude up, looks like that they will have no choice but to give you a bad reference.


  • Posts: 5,121 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    There are scenarios where people are managed out to avoid paying a redundancy but this isn't one of them.

    If you want to leave, leave on your own terms.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭draiochtanois


    This post has been deleted.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,584 ✭✭✭✭Creamy Goodness


    Jesus I thought I had worked with some insane people. This thread takes the biscuit. How did he all get jobs and keep them?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭Avatar MIA


    Jesus I thought I had worked with some insane people. This thread takes the biscuit. How did he all get jobs and keep them?

    Not insane, just feelings of entitlement. 'I'm entitled to give employees a bad name'.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,584 ✭✭✭✭Creamy Goodness


    Avatar MIA wrote: »
    Not insane, just feelings of entitlement. 'I'm entitled to give employees a bad name'.

    Yeah but the suggestion of photocopying a management book and highlighting things; I'd expect that from a transition year student who got a bad placement, actually, no they'd have more cop on.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,018 ✭✭✭knipex


    as evident by my vocal shouting matches with the patronising IT manager, and the relatively slow pace I'm working at since I'm frankly bored


    Keep it up and the next step will be the start of the disciplinary process, and the end of a decent reference.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,337 ✭✭✭Bandana boy


    It is very unlikely you could arrange a redundancy payment , You could though negotiate a golden handshake.
    If your relationship with your manager is very poor and he does not have the bandwidth to manage you out a quick chat about your options could very well be fruitful.

    Schedule a chat about your fractured relationship , say I would be ok with moving on but would need to find another job first , Say if i had a payment of X that would enable me to leave now and not suffer financially in the time it takes to find a new job and get me out of your hair faster.

    Its certainly not a usual arrangement but i have seen it , in particular with Senior people who are making the workplace a tense environment but doing enough to avoid getting sacked /Have a Manager to busy to fully implement a PIP.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,253 ✭✭✭witchgirl26


    OP why would you be so concerned about a bad reference - surely if you do your job and quit, there's nothing bad to be said as such (slightly ignoring the screaming matches you mention coz that's just seriously unprofessional). However if you take the p & do hardly anything and get fired, then that's going to look bad on any cv. IF redundancy was an option, you'd still need a reference from that employer as generally places want a reference from your last employer. And if they've fired you, do you think they'll give you a great reference? I know they can only say what's factual but sometimes how they put things and respond to questions, or don't respond, says more.

    But like others have said, redundancy is only where the role no longer exists, not when they want to fire you. Which to be fair, it sounds like you're giving them grounds to. You won't get any special pay off for this, just your salary up to your end day.

    If you want to leave a job, grow up & quit it. If you want to travel somewhere before seeing if you'd like to move there, save up a bit, save your annual leave from current job, quit the job, take the annual leave at the end & go live off your savings for a bit.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,185 ✭✭✭screamer


    Attitude is equally important in securing a new role..... and managing people out will be cheaper than paying redundancy (and to a manager would be a more satisfactory and fair conclusion) to the rest of the team also....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,437 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    Thought that title would grab some attention :pac:

    I'm in a dead-end job working in software and plan to leave soon, but my ideal situation would be if they let me go and I got redundancy payment (for which I qualify), as I plan to investigate working abroad and the redundancy would help cover costs while I travel around searching/interviewing.

    My skillset is such that I'd have 0 trouble getting another job, but obviously I don't want a bad record on my references. I'm a senior dev with 15 years experience and the last time I put my CV on Monster.ie I received 40 calls in one day, so not too worried about getting other work in Ireland. The tricky part is that I'd like to work abroad so want time to travel there and see what the place is like before applying.


    Now the company know I'm not happy in the job (as evident by my vocal shouting matches with the patronising IT manager, and the relatively slow pace I'm working at since I'm frankly bored), yet I am surprised they haven't yet pulled me aside to say it's not working out. I suspect they are expecting me to quit.

    Is there a way to instil a seed of doubt in their minds that leads them to believe it would be better to get someone to replace me, that doesn't involve me blatantly being undisciplined (e.g. squatting over the IT manager's desk to take a dookie) ?

    One idea I'm thinking of is just to tell them something not committal like "I MAY be scouting out other jobs as I don't feel my skillset is being utilised fully here". This would hopefully plant a seed of doubt in their mind to find someone more permanent before the next 6 month project kicks in.

    Any other suggestions?

    Ask for it... If they say no... Leave. You'd be better off.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,744 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    There are scenarios where people are managed out to avoid paying a redundancy but this isn't one of them.

    This is certainly true and I have seen this happen at close quarters, where a number of people left suddenly and we were given the official line that they resigned with immediate effect directly after leaving work the previous day, plus there were a few unexplained people who were here one day and gone the next without any indication.

    However this kind of thing doesn't tend to happen very often and tends to be in cases where management have tried to manage someone out and the employee has resisted this practice and is quite popular in the wider company and/or the team that they had been in and to manage them out more aggressively would possibly lead to disruption to the wider company or morale of teams etc.

    It is why if you feel you are being managed out you should never resign no matter how hard you are pushed unless you have another job lined up, because if you stick it out long enough and you have support within the company from colleagues, most companies will know they tread a very tight line with respect to a possible constructive dismissal claim and won't want to take that risk and a settlement will normally be on offer which puts you in a good position to negotiate the terms.

    It doesn't necessarily have to be because an employee is low performing or has bad attitude etc however, it happens for a variety of reasons, which can include personality clashes, the desire of a new manager to stamp their authority on a department and remove anyone who may dilute that or a former excellent employee who was once valuable but because of changes no longer is.

    Unfortunately I've dealt with these issues both as a manager sitting in as a witness and note-taker on meetings where these things are discussed as well as someone who has been a witness on behalf of a colleague who was made an offer and I can tell you, that there certainly is a dirty side to HR as well as the positive all in HR is fair side that is portrayed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,185 ✭✭✭screamer


    devnull wrote: »
    This is certainly true and I have seen this happen at close quarters, where a number of people left suddenly and we were given the official line that they resigned with immediate effect directly after leaving work the previous day, plus there were a few unexplained people who were here one day and gone the next without any indication.

    However this kind of thing doesn't tend to happen very often and tends to be in cases where management have tried to manage someone out and the employee has resisted this practice and is quite popular in the wider company and/or the team that they had been in and to manage them out more aggressively would possibly lead to disruption to the wider company or morale of teams etc.

    It is why if you feel you are being managed out you should never resign no matter how hard you are pushed unless you have another job lined up, because if you stick it out long enough and you have support within the company from colleagues, most companies will know they tread a very tight line with respect to a possible constructive dismissal claim and won't want to take that risk and a settlement will normally be on offer which puts you in a good position to negotiate the terms.

    It doesn't necessarily have to be because an employee is low performing or has bad attitude etc however, it happens for a variety of reasons, which can include personality clashes, the desire of a new manager to stamp their authority on a department and remove anyone who may dilute that or a former excellent employee who was once valuable but because of changes no longer is.

    Unfortunately I've dealt with these issues both as a manager sitting in as a witness and note-taker on meetings where these things are discussed as well as someone who has been a witness on behalf of a colleague who was made an offer and I can tell you, that there certainly is a dirty side to HR as well as the positive all in HR is fair side that is portrayed.

    Generally someone who shouts at meetings, and starts on a go slow will be quick to lose any support of colleagues who will want to distance themselves from such hassle and feel it unfair that someone in a go slow is not taken to task.
    I'd be very hesitant to advise anyone to rely on colleagues support in a situation like this.....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,724 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    I can't understand why they just don't give you a warning, initiate a PIP and manage you out of the company.

    I've done it a few times.


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,744 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    All of this from a HR point of view.
    I'm in a dead-end job working in software and plan to leave soon, but my ideal situation would be if they let me go and I got redundancy payment (for which I qualify), as I plan to investigate working abroad and the redundancy would help cover costs while I travel around searching/interviewing.

    You will not get a redundancy payment, you might get a settlement agreement but these do not get offered to everyone, but there are things that will help your chances of getting one, and things which you can do to make it more likely.
    My skillset is such that I'd have 0 trouble getting another job.

    If HR get the impression that you think that, it makes your chances of getting a settlement agreement much less. Generally companies are more likely to offer these if they think it's the only way you can move on, if you're saying you're going to get a job every five minutes they'll think why bother if you are soon going to leave anyway.
    as evident by my vocal shouting matches with the patronising IT manager.

    How bad are these shouting matches? What about with your other colleagues? Do you have a good reputation with them? What is your reputation like in the department as a whole?
    Is there a way to instil a seed of doubt in their minds that leads them to believe it would be better to get someone to replace me, that doesn't involve me blatantly being undisciplined (e.g. squatting over the IT manager's desk to take a dookie)

    If they are managing you out and you break any company terms and conditions or breach the disciplinary policy this will not help you, they will believe that if you carry on like this sooner or later they will be able to dismiss you via the disciplinary system, which again weakens your hand.
    One idea I'm thinking of is just to tell them something not committal like "I MAY be scouting out other jobs as I don't feel my skillset is being utilised fully here". This would hopefully plant a seed of doubt in their mind to find someone more permanent before the next 6 month project kicks in.

    Makes a settlement even less likely.

    OP - getting a settlement is not common, the way the company will look at it, will basically come down to this

    a) Can we get them to resign if we pressure him enough
    b) Can we remove them through a disciplinary process without risking unfair dismissal

    If the answer after trying to do both a) and b) for a while is NO, then there MAY be a CHANCE that they will be willing to offer a settlement, however even if the answer is NO to both of those, there are still other criteria that they will consider that may help/hinder your chances such as those I detailed above, but there are more.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,744 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    screamer wrote: »
    Generally someone who shouts at meetings, and starts on a go slow will be quick to lose any support of colleagues who will want to distance themselves from such hassle and feel it unfair that someone in a go slow is not taken to task.
    I'd be very hesitant to advise anyone to rely on colleagues support in a situation like this.....

    I wasn't referring to the OP in general - just the way it works in general in most cases.
    _Brian wrote: »
    I can't understand why they just don't give you a warning, initiate a PIP and manage you out of the company.

    It realistically depends on what the person has done and the disciplinary process and what the acts of ill-discipline are, some people are clever in that they can be annoying and create problems whilst dancing right along, but not over the rules, however in this case, if the OP is having shouting matches with someone and it's witnessed by someone else they'd have no problems using a PIP and disciplinary process.

    A PIP often is a tool to manage someone out of the company, but that happens right at the start and generally is not a quick process of managing someone else. Typically in my experience they last several weeks and from beginning to end it can take a few months to truly manage someone else, especially those who have strong will and are not going to resign easy, most companies try and drag it out as long as possible in the hope that the employee resigns and in most cases the employees do.

    However, there are some employees who are able to drag it out for up to 4-5 months and in one case 6 months by using every trick in the book, and the longer the employee holds on for and avoids doing anything to go far along the disciplinary to be fired, are the ones who tend to get the settlements because the employer by the end is sick of managing someone out and just wants rid of them so are willing to pay them off to make the problem go away.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2 curlypat


    i'm actually in a similar position. I work for a large company 200+ employees. i work within a team of 4 and am 6 months into disciplinary procedure of 24 months due to low perform within my job role. The spec of the job have become more technical than my capacity.

    Redundancies are due this November however i hold very little hope of being made redundant due to being on corrective action. In my eyes why pay me money when they can sit it out and fire me in 18 months time...

    as others have said they'll sit it out


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,744 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    curlypat wrote: »
    i'm actually in a similar position. I work for a large company 200+ employees. i work within a team of 4 and am 6 months into disciplinary procedure of 24 months due to low perform within my job role. The spec of the job have become more technical than my capacity.

    Redundancies are due this November however i hold very little hope of being made redundant due to being on corrective action. In my eyes why pay me money when they can sit it out and fire me in 18 months time...

    as others have said they'll sit it out

    How long have you been working for your company?

    You say that it's a 24 month disciplinary process, how does that work? That is not something I have come across before, what does your company handbook say in relation to this?

    From my experience if a manager wants a staff member out they are not going to wait anywhere near 18 months to achieve that in almost all cases unless there is one of only a very limited number of reasons I can think of.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,944 ✭✭✭thomasj


    How to get made redundant?

    Convince the powers to be that the office you work in is wastage and not needed!

    I'm not sure your colleagues will thank you for it!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,504 ✭✭✭bennyineire


    If you're as qualified and your role is in as high demand as you claim to be then you must be able to command a high salary.

    Therefor grow up and be a big boy, start applying for other jobs and when you get offered the right one hand in your notice and move on.

    That's the way I've always done it and I hazard a guess most people do.

    Why do you feel "entitled" to a pay out just because you're not happy in your job.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,743 ✭✭✭Wanderer2010


    Its certainly not a usual arrangement but i have seen it , in particular with Senior people who are making the workplace a tense environment but doing enough to avoid getting sacked /Have a Manager to busy to fully implement a PIP.

    Wow, there are some real old school, as in dinosaur levels of management going on here. You do know that "managed out" and "PIP" are effectively bullying an employee out of their job? And that loads of people take, and win, constructive dismissal cases every single year and often get payouts worth many more times what their salary was? Its extremely easy to see in a tribunal setting where managers have all of a sudden started picking on an employee and questioning everything they do. It might seem like you can get away with it in a work setting but a court setting is very different.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,744 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Wow, there are some real old school, as in dinosaur levels of management going on here. You do know that "managed out" and "PIP" are effectively bullying an employee out of their job?

    There is nothing wrong with a PIP, many companies have them, almost all the multi-nationals and there is nothing to stop them being implemented and no law against them, sometimes they are genuinely used to help the person improve and put adequate supports in place, even if they do have other uses.

    At the end of the day you can look at things as black and white which I agree is how they should be or you can look at the real world as it happens in reality, HR can be a ruthless world, it's not all smiles and butterflies and rainbows like it is on the first day when the HR person welcomes you to a company.
    And that loads of people take, and win, constructive dismissal cases every single year and often get payouts worth many more times what their salary was? Its extremely easy to see in a tribunal setting where managers have all of a sudden started picking on an employee and questioning everything they do. It might seem like you can get away with it in a work setting but a court setting is very different.

    Employers can and they do get away with it, I can tell you that because I have seen both employees be on the end of it and employers carry it out successfully as well and if it does hit a hitch along the way and the HR Department does make an error then the company are normally much more open to a settlement where they will offer an employee money for not suing them and providing them a good reference and most employees tend to take that up from my experience.

    HR Departments are not stupid or anything like it, those who are managing out know exactly how to do it and leave the appropriate paper trails behind in order to protect themselves. Normally managing someone out is a joint effort between a manager and a HR person or even a HR Team and there are many things that they can do together to negate any employees gripes or to ensure the employee does not use the grievance system to their advantage.

    What HR departments hate though is someone trying to refer something to the Workplace Relations Committee or get a neutral mediator involved and many disciplinary policies will also restrict witnesses or companions in Disciplinary meetings to fellow employees, full of the knowledge that a lot of colleagues won't come forward through fear of reprisals. However asking an employer for a mediator because of your concerns of getting a fair hearing in writing and the employer turning it down can be useful later on for the employee.

    It is impossible for one person to manage out someone without any support from someone else, because it will almost always fall down in court because it can be argued like you say, but if it involves multiple people, ideally at least three with one of whom has no history at all with the employee, it becomes much easier because they can all work on it together. I know that's dirty and it's not nice but it's the way things work, because there have to be some boxes ticked and steps followed so it looks like it's not just a boss that one day decided he wanted an employee gone.

    It is absolutely possible for someone to manage someone out as long as they keep their cool, play the long game and stick to the rules and the laws and the lane and their own disciplinary policy and work together as a team to achieve that outcome. There are very many tactics that can be used to achieve this and are used often, the employee may well know exactly what these tactics are but in a lot of cases will not be able to prove them and you have to remember when you claim constructive dismissal the burden is on you to prove it was unfair, not on the other side to prove they were justified.

    The biggest reason that employers end themselves up in court for constructive dismissal cases is mostly because of the fact they were in such a rush to try and get rid of that pesky employee that annoyed them, that they either forgot the principles or natural justice or they simply started skipping or ignoring parts of their own disciplinary policy or grievance policy in order to try and chase someone out of the business as soon as possible. You would not believe how common this is, over 75% of the disciplinary appeals I saw in the past were about technicalities and the slightest breach of process normally results in an automatic win for the employee.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,185 ✭✭✭screamer


    Wow, there are some real old school, as in dinosaur levels of management going on here. You do know that "managed out" and "PIP" are effectively bullying an employee out of their job? And that loads of people take, and win, constructive dismissal cases every single year and often get payouts worth many more times what their salary was? Its extremely easy to see in a tribunal setting where managers have all of a sudden started picking on an employee and questioning everything they do. It might seem like you can get away with it in a work setting but a court setting is very different.

    Rubbish and more rubbish. Managing someone out and PIPs are the only avenues available to employers to get rid of employees who are not cutting the mustard in terms of delivery or attitude and who have passed the magical mark of one year of service. Nothing old school about it I Usually are able to adjust their performance or behaviour sufficiently to not be managed out but if not then fair enough. Workplaces do not and should not carry people.
    Done correctly there are no grounds for court action and that's the crux of it. Done correctly but hey if people all did things correctly there'd be no need for pips.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,744 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    screamer wrote: »
    Rubbish and more rubbish. Managing someone out and PIPs are the only avenues available to employers to get rid of employees who are not cutting the mustard in terms of delivery or attitude and who have passed the magical mark of one year of service. Nothing old school about it I Usually are able to adjust their performance or behaviour sufficiently to not be managed out but if not then fair enough. Workplaces do not and should not carry people.

    Whilst I agree with a lot of what you say, there are multiple reasons that people are managed out, it's not always about behavior or performance even though those two are by far the most common that would happen in most companies.

    When senior managers come on sometimes they want to bring their own people in or create their own team or have a "new broom" and sometimes to do that that need to manage a few people out to free up budget to hire new ones as well as managers just wanting rid of people for personal reasons (rare and harder to achieve but happens)


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