NTA 'unsupportive' of Uber's Irish plan to expand

Mr.Frame

bk wrote: »

You really should, it is a horrible toxic place. Literally one of the worst forums of any type I've ever seen on the internet.

I've looked at that forum at various times,yes while some comments are far from being savoury , saying it is "the worst forums of any type I've ever seen on the internet " is a little over the top.

bk wrote: »

It certainly doesn't reflect well on taxi drivers.

But it doesn't speak for or represent taxi drivers.

Mr.Frame

bk wrote: »

And if you think those take-away places are paying their drivers any better, you are kidding yourself.

They are and I'm not.

bk

Mr.Frame wrote: »

I've looked at that forum at various times,yes while some comments are far from being savoury , saying it is "the worst forums of any type I've ever seen on the internet " is a little over the top.

But it doesn't speak for or represent taxi drivers.

Honestly, I can't think of a worse one. But then I don't go trawling the depths of the dark web. But certainly for any sort of "professional forum" it is an absolute cesspool.

You should see the way they talk about their customers there and in particular the way they talk about women! As a father, damn scary :eek:

And while it might not officially represent taxi drivers, it certainly reflects terribly on them and shows that just because a lad as a bit of a paper saying they have a license, doesn't make them a professional and certainly blows away the idea that you are any safer in a licensed taxi then any random persons car.

Mr.Frame wrote: »

They are and I'm not.

Not in my experience.

Mr.Frame

bk wrote: »

Honestly, I can't think of a worse one. But then I don't go trawling the depths of the dark web. But certainly for any sort of "professional forum" it is an absolute cesspool.

I don't think you have to trawl the dark web to find worse. As a gay man I have seen some horrible comments made about /against LGBT people on Boards as it happens, without so much as an infraction or a warning given, until a LGBT forced the issue. But that's for another days work!

bk wrote: »

You should see the way they talk about their customers there and in particular the way they talk about women! As a father, damn scary :eek:

and LGBT people and people of colour. But they do not represent anyone but themselves, the forum does not speak for taxi drivers.

bk wrote: »

And while it might not officially represent taxi drivers, it certainly reflects terribly on them and shows that just because a lad as a bit of a paper saying they have a license, doesn't make them a professional and certainly blows away the idea that you are any safer in a licensed taxi then any random persons car.

But anyone could set up a forum and call it whatever,, Joetaxi.com or Dubtaxidriverslimited.com , I Love Taxis .com

It reflects on the people who post comments on it. Again, it does not represent taxi drivers.
Forget about it, would be my advice.

bk

Mr.Frame wrote: »

I don't think you have to trawl the dark web to find worse. As a gay man I have seen some horrible comments made about /against LGBT people on Boards as it happens, without so much as an infraction or a warning given, until a LGBT forced the issue. But that's for another days work!

Let me just say, that such carry on would not be allowed on any forum on boards that I mod! :mad:

Mr.Frame

bk wrote: »

Let me just say, that such carry on would not be allowed on any forum on boards that I mod! :mad:

Glad to hear it. Wish "others" would be as authoritative as your good self :D

Alun

bk wrote: »

Deliveroo in my experience brought something completely new to the market. Pick up from higher end restaurants rather then your normal fast food pizza/chinese/indian take-away and delivery.

And if you think those take-away places are paying their drivers any better, you are kidding yourself.

I recently ordered from a new restaurant here in Bray via JustEat, and it seems they're getting on the act as well. A young girl delivered it on a scooter with JustEat emblazoned on her jacket and one of those weird cubic rucksack things again with the JustEat logo all over it.

bk

Alun wrote: »

I recently ordered from a new restaurant here in Bray via JustEat, and it seems they're getting on the act as well. A young girl delivered it on a scooter with JustEat emblazoned on her jacket and one of those weird cubic rucksack things again with the JustEat logo all over it.

Yup, they seem to be getting into the same game. But that is new, previously they only handled the ordering side, not delivery. However Deliveroo were definitely there first.

I will say I thought Deliveroo is a great concept. Great to be able to order proper food from proper restaurants, rather then just the usual take-away food. Great for people who don't own a car and thus can't do take-away from decent restaurants. I think the concept is an important one for modern cities where people don't need cars, along with services like Tesco Delivery, Amazon and Uber/Hailo.

However I have to say I stopped using it. Food turned up cold too many times, disappointed with it too many times.

I will say that I always tipped the delivery person.

magicbastarder

the main issue with deliveroo is that the employees are not employees; they're contractors who don't have any benefits of what an employee would have, such as guaranteed hours, insurance, etc.
not saying deliveroo are the only people at it, but it's not a welcome development in the way the economy is going, where a company can externalise the usual costs of depending on actual people with actual lives to do the work for them.

jesus_thats_gre

Mr.S wrote: »

Better drivers - based on a rating system so everyone is friendly

Better cars - again, based on a rating system so always spotless and modern cars

Cheaper - UberX is far cheaper then a normal taxi fare, UberPool is peanuts when split. Yes, surge pricing happens at peak times which can make it more expensive.

Easier to Order - the Uber app is far supperior then any taxi app out there and makes paying a breeze.

I've had much more pleasant rides in Uber's in London and the US versus here.

Edit: I'm not saying taxis are awful here, far from it. But I'd much prefer an Uber service, mostly for price and consistency.

Can only base my experience of using Uber extensively in London - with a small amount of usage in New York and San Francisco.

With regard to your claims:

Better drivers: Absolutely not the case in London. They may be a bit friendlier but they often can't speak basic English and they are completely dependent on the routing provided by Waze - or similar. A black cab driver is generally a far better driver.

Better cars: Again, not really the case in London. The black cabs can be a bit dated but they are infinitely more spacious and practical than the majority of Ubers in London. Granted, you can get a Ford Galaxy if you order a large car and you might be lucky enough to get an E-Class but a Prius will generally turn up.

Easier to Order: Not sure that I agree with you. Have used Hailo and MyTaxi extensively in multiple countries across Europe in the past 4 years. The Uber app is fine but the Hailo app was generally my favourite - the combined Hailo and MyTaxi app is about on par with the Uber app.

The one downside of Uber is that you always run the risk of a higher than expected charge due to the fact that you cannot keep an eye on the meter.

The upside of Hailo/MyTaxis is that you get the convenience of an Uber like app but still get regular taxi.

Cheaper: There can be no real debate here. Easily half the price of a black cab.

There are some other downsides to the Uber in London. Uber's cannot use bus lanes and I have often found myself sitting in traffic for extended periods while black cabs fly past in the bus lane. The routing within the app isn't the most efficient in my experience. I always keep an eye on Google Map routing while in taxis abroad in order to ensure I am not being scammed. Combined with personal experience in areas that I am familiar with, it is apparent that the drivers are 100% dependent on the mapping route and the routes are often less than optimal.

So yes, they will generally always be cheaper in London. But they won't be quicker than a black cab. Who cares on the weekend but that matters during the week when on business.

Then there is the fact that Uber generally shouldn't be trusted. There are countless stories and rumours of what they do behind the scenes. The most recent rumour that they pay based on the optimum route while charging the customer for the route actually taken - which actually ends up being a longer route.

That rumoured lack of integrity, along with the race to the bottom that is associated with the 'gig economy' leads me to being very happy with the NTA's decision. The NTA now need to get their finger out and adopt what has been down in other cities - standard make/model car and so on.

Ps. Conscious that the majority of my references are based on London. It is slightly different in NYC and SF (better cars for one) but I see London being a better indicator of how things would be in Dublin.

jesus_thats_gre

bk wrote: »

- Jump into a Taxi at Dublin Airport. Told him where I was going and he proceeds to scream and shout about how it is a short journey, etc. (it is medium distance), and I had a cheek wasting his time! Had I not had bags in the boot I would have told him to stop and feck off. !

Should see what happens in Germany in the same scenario after you ask can you pay with credit card. I have had drivers punch the steering wheel and shout profanities at me on multiple occasions.

At some stage though, you have to ask yourself what is the cause of such behaviour. Lack of professionalism is obviously a major part of it but you have to wonder how much financial pressure they are under.

This is where Uber makes me very uncomfortable. The dramatic reduction in fares that is associated with Uber doesn't feel like that answer. It feels like smoke and mirrors intended to disrupt an industry. Lower costs now feel good but I suspect it will lead to multiple abuses in the future.

myshirt

There is always push back in this country to anything that upsets the gravy train. Always. I don't know does anyone remember the hassle that John O'Sullivan had when trying to Aircoach off the ground.

Massive push back and pressure. These people are protecting their own. It's a f#ck you to spreading the benefits of competition across the economy. Protectionism I suppose, the whole setup at the moment is just working as sweet as a nut and they wouldn't have it any other way. Forget efficiency, frequency, price competition, expansion of routes, streamlining of routes or anyone trying to make things better for consumers and consumer choice. Dress it up whatever way you want and try legitimise it, bit in the end of the day it always comes back to money. CIE were at it for years with this culture. 80quid return to Dublin from Cork. High pay. Big pensions. Big lump sums. It's exactly this same culture that underpins the resistance against Uber.

jesus_thats_gre

myshirt wrote: »

There is always push back in this country. Always. I don't know does anyone remember the hassle that John O'Sullivan had when trying to Aircoach off the ground.

Massive push back and pressure. These people are protecting their own. It's a f#ck you to spreading the benefits of competition across the economy. Protectionism I suppose, the whole setup at the moment is just working as sweet as a nut and they wouldn't have it any other way. Forget efficiency, frequency, price competition, expansion of routes, streamlining of routes or anyone trying to make things better for consumers and consumer choice.

Hmmm there is always a bit of this but it can't be that simple.

I am a technology nut and generally a major advocate for 'digital disruption' - it is what I do for work.

London is the perfect example. You can't have a standard such as the exam that the black cab drivers have to pass and then just allow Uber to come in a **** all over it.

magicbastarder

myshirt wrote: »

There is always push back in this country to anything that upsets the gravy train.

or else; 'regulatory authority suspicious of company which has a stated aim of disrupting regulations'.

let's face it; uber might have a better chance if their reputation was not so poor.

MJohnston

I'm in the weird position of completely accepting and loving a service like Deliveroo, while hating Uber.

The problem I see with Uber in Ireland is that in the US, they were originally created to fill a gap - that is, if you've ever been to San Francisco, you'll know that there are an absolutely pitiful amount of taxis in comparison to the population size. So, people were crying out for a service like Uber that could provide them with taxi-like transportation quickly and easily.

Now Uber have started bringing their same regulation-bypass game to markets that are already more than adequately served by properly regulated taxis, like Dublin, and it just smacks of undercutting and dodgy tactics. Indeed, in a country where taxi licenses are readily available, and carefully monitored, allowing drivers to bypass that and go unregulated and unlicensed is just asking for trouble (especially when Dublin, for example, has a known problem with dodgy cabs).

I think Uber would work pretty well up north in Belfast, because they have an absolutely dismal taxi availability, and I've had nights out there where I'm waiting from 1am until about 4am in the pouring rain waiting for a taxi to take me home, and ending up having to pay double the rate to get there because it's further away. There's a mafia-like running of the taxi industry up there, and it could benefit heavily from disruption. In Dublin, it just seems dangerous.

Edit: I'd also add that one of the benefits of Uber is the breaking of monopolies and how that aids more reasonable pricing. I've seen many complaints about Dublin taxis, but I think most people would agree that they're fairly priced (by the book anyway), and that there's very heavy competition for your trade.

Mr.Frame

myshirt wrote: »

There is always push back in this country to anything that upsets the gravy train. Always. I don't know does anyone remember the hassle that John O'Sullivan had when trying to Aircoach off the ground.

Massive push back and pressure. These people are protecting their own. It's a f#ck you to spreading the benefits of competition across the economy. Protectionism I suppose, the whole setup at the moment is just working as sweet as a nut and they wouldn't have it any other way. Forget efficiency, frequency, price competition, expansion of routes, streamlining of routes or anyone trying to make things better for consumers and consumer choice. Dress it up whatever way you want and try legitimise it, bit in the end of the day it always comes back to money. CIE were at it for years with this culture. 80quid return to Dublin from Cork. High pay. Big pensions. Big lump sums. It's exactly this same culture that underpins the resistance against Uber.

Massive push back and pressure from whom? What protectionism? and what exactly do you mean by " the whole setup at the moment is just working as sweet as a nut and they wouldn't have it any other way. "

charlie_says

If Uber play by the regulatory rules and pay their tax properly and fairly like everyone else has to, then they are welcome to the market. Pretty simple in my head. If only it was that fair....

strandroad

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

This is where Uber makes me very uncomfortable. The dramatic reduction in fares that is associated with Uber doesn't feel like that answer. It feels like smoke and mirrors intended to disrupt an industry. Lower costs now feel good but I suspect it will lead to multiple abuses in the future.

Uber is only cheaper because Uber the company subsidises fares. Research shows that passengers pay only a half of what they would if Uber was not burning investors' billions on subsidies. It cannot last and is not designed to, they just want to push others out. It's like €1 menu in McDonalds, surely one can see they're being baited?

With taxi apps I see no need for Uber in Dublin, the last thing the city needs is more cruising cars...

Dyr

magicbastarder wrote: »

the main issue with deliveroo is that the employees are not employees; they're contractors who don't have any benefits of what an employee would have, such as guaranteed hours, insurance, etc.
not saying deliveroo are the only people at it, but it's not a welcome development in the way the economy is going, where a company can externalise the usual costs of depending on actual people with actual lives to do the work for them.

And this is the crux of it, none of these companies are "tech" companies or digital disruptors or whatever the wannabe paddy cosgraves call them

They're built around dodging regulations to drop costs. It's not new.

ED E

Bambi wrote: »

And this is the crux of it, none of these companies are "tech" companies or digital disruptors or whatever the wannabe paddy cosgraves call them

They're built around dodging regulations to drop costs. It's not new.

Its not new. Dominos have done it for decades.

MJohnston

I just don't see Deliveroo as anywhere near as harmful as Uber - Uber undercuts existing taxi services and puts them out of a job, Deliveroo is an entirely new form of delivery service that hasn't existed before and has no competition to undercut. Plus the worker side is different too - Uber is essentially blackmailing long-time taxi drivers with obsolescence if they don't join, there's no historical delivery driver pool that Deliveroo is forcing into unemployment.

Bray Head

There are two points to consider here:

1: Uber as it exists in other places is clearly in breach of the Irish legislation which says that you need an SPSV license to carry passengers. The NTA are right to point this out. It would have come as no surprise to Uber.
2: The NTA says it would oppose any policy (ie legislative) change to allow ride-sharing in Ireland. I think this is a mistake. The regulatory environment could be changed to allow for several unrelated passengers to share a car driven by someone with an SPSV license (like UberPOOL). This would have the potential to really improve life for commuters and people going to big destinations like airports and concert venues. It would also be consistent with the NTA's mandate of reducing congestion. 

Ireland actually has a pretty good system of regulation for taxi services to deal with the technology that existed in 2015. The problem is that the technology has already moved on a lot, and will have moved on even further by 2025. 

Until the Taxi Regulator was set up in 2004 the political system was decades behind the needs of the public. I really hope this doesn't happen again.

Arbie

Last year I spent a few weeks in USA for work. My colleagues and I used Uber and Lyft almost daily. We also occasionally used local taxi companies (either booked ourselves by phone or used local app to book). The level of service and the quality of the cars with Uber/Lyft was much higher than with the taxis. Uber/Lyft were also cheaper and the apps worked well. We used UberPool on a couple of occasions and it was handy, caused no hassle, worked out cheap.

I rarely took taxis in Ireland until 3 months ago and since then have had to take about 4 a week for work. The experience has been largely positive but I have also had many bad drives. MyTaxi is good, but if you go to a taxi rank and ask if they will take it for payment the answer is 100% no. The reasons I have been given include: "my phone is broken", "the app is down", and even "I left my phone at home in India when on holidays" (with 2 phones visible on the dash). The real reason, according to a driver I spoke to, is that MyTaxi take a hefty % of every payment, so drivers prefer to wait for a cash fare, which is understandable, but every time I've been faced with this I just use MyTaxi anyway and someone at the back of the taxi queue inevitably accepts the job and ends up with a fare long before the other drivers who are waiting for cash.

I have had a half dozen drivers who were totally professional, took quickest route, had clean cars, were good to chat to but also didn't expect a full blown conversation, and drove safely. They were all MyTaxi drivers with excellent ratings. I have kept them as favourites and recommended to others.

With on-street hails (not using MyTaxi/Uber) in the last few months I have also got:
- attempted overcharge of €15
- unclean cars x 2
- poor attitude x 2
- attempted refusal to take fare "it's not worth my while" (€25 fare)
- no clue where a major Dublin street is located

These issues were with taxis who were not on MyTaxi/Uber, so there is no feedback/rating system. With MyTaxi/Uber at least people can point out the bad drivers. Passengers can be rated/traced too, so there is a benefit for the driver.

I may be a bit off topic with above, but I feel the industry has to accept that when we are getting better service abroad we will expect that here.

bk

Bray Head, absolutely spot on there with your comment.

I agree completely that there is absolutely a market for an UberPool type service operated by Taxis and SPSV drivers.

plodder

Bray Head wrote: »

There are two points to consider here:

1: Uber as it exists in other places is clearly in breach of the Irish legislation which says that you need an SPSV license to carry passengers. The NTA are right to point this out. It would have come as no surprise to Uber.
2: The NTA says it would oppose any policy (ie legislative) change to allow ride-sharing in Ireland. I think this is a mistake. The regulatory environment could be changed to allow for several unrelated passengers to share a car driven by someone with an SPSV license (like UberPOOL). This would have the potential to really improve life for commuters and people going to big destinations like airports and concert venues. It would also be consistent with the NTA's mandate of reducing congestion. 

Are you sure they are actually against the pool idea? The term "ride-sharing" doesn't only refer to multiple passengers. It can apply to a driver plus one passenger, where they just both happen to be going to the same place, and the driver does not hold any special license or permit.

I remember in the bad old days (1990s probably, before liberalisation) that taxis used to do pooling at some places like Dublin Airport. There was such a scarcity of taxis that they figured it might be a way to hold off liberalisation of licenses, which it wasn't of course. But I remember sharing a taxi a number of times with people going home from the airport and we just split the bill.

Point is, I'd be surprised if there are any rules against taxi pooling or that the NTA would be against it.

Ireland actually has a pretty good system of regulation for taxi services to deal with the technology that existed in 2015. The problem is that the technology has already moved on a lot, and will have moved on even further by 2025. 

Until the Taxi Regulator was set up in 2004 the political system was decades behind the needs of the public. I really hope this doesn't happen again.

AlanG

Harry Palmr wrote: »

What is the insurance situation for those who sign up to Uber, are drivers obliged to have public liability cover and if so who pays for it?

Legally drivers need to have the same insurance as taxis but Uber wont check it so you have to take your chances.
The gig economy is only about taking more money form the working middle classes and directing it towards the 1%. Uber will do everything they can to deny their staff the rights of employees and exploit them.

mcgragger

What sort of checks do UBER drivers go through?

I would never use them - any madman could turn up and do what he wants with you.

If all this bull**** was gone maybe taxi's could lower the fares they charge as the would be far busier

bluemachaveli

mcgragger wrote: »

What sort of checks do UBER drivers go through?

I would never use them - any madman could turn up and do what he wants with you.

If all this bull**** was gone maybe taxi's could lower the fares they charge as the would be far busier

In the UK they are quite strict as it's regulated. You also need to be licensed by the transport crowd there so it's vetted pretty well.

Was in NY recently and used Uber & Lyft a lot, prefer it over cabs any day. Nicer cars and they picked up in seconds. TBH you have about the same chance of meeting a madman on them as you do in another service or Taxi.

I'd love to see it launch over here under the old Hackney style licence. It still ensures the drivers are vetted and have the correct paperwork, but gives the consumers choice.

howiya

mcgragger wrote: »

What sort of checks do UBER drivers go through?

I would never use them - any madman could turn up and do what he wants with you.

If all this bull**** was gone maybe taxi's could lower the fares they charge as the would be far busier

Fairs aren't set by taxi drivers

bk

AlanG wrote: »

Legally drivers need to have the same insurance as taxis but Uber wont check it so you have to take your chances.

In Ireland, Uber only operates with Taxi's so no different then booking a taxi from a radio company. Taxi is fully licensed, etc.

mcgragger wrote: »

What sort of checks do UBER drivers go through?

I would never use them - any madman could turn up and do what he wants with you.

If all this bull**** was gone maybe taxi's could lower the fares they charge as the would be far busier

Uber already operate in Ireland and have done for years. They only use Taxi's or limo's (for the black car service) and as such, all the usual licensing laws apply, driver must have a SPSV license etc. So no difference at all from ordering a taxi from a radio company or by waving one down on the street.

Not that the fact that a driver has a license gives you any guarantee. Getting a SPSV license is relatively easy and a person who has a criminal record can still get a license. Irish taxi drivers have been found guilty of rape, etc. in the past.

Personally I think using a service like Uber or MyTaxi is much safer then picking up a random taxi on the street:

- You know that the taxi has a valid SPSV as it is checked by Uber and the details of the car and driver or shown in the app, so you know it isn't a fake taxi that has turned up (as sometimes happens on the street).

- You can see the rating that other users have given the driver and cancel if you don't like it.

- Uber/MyTaxi throw drivers off their service who they get lots of complaints about.

- Most importantly in the Uber app, you can share the details of the trip with family or friends. They can see the details of the driver or vehicle and track your progress, making it easy to call the Gardai if anything weird happens.