NTA 'unsupportive' of Uber's Irish plan to expand

magicbastarder

The National Transport Authority has told ride-sharing service Uber that it is unsupportive of the company's plans to expand in Ireland.

In a letter to the San Francisco tech company, the NTA described Uber's proposal to operate a pilot scheme for paid trips in private cars as "undesirable" and would result in unfair competition with licensed taxis.

It said "operating parallel regulated and non regulated regimes would undermine the regulated transport system".

Uber has been operating in Ireland for three years but has been unable to roll out the ride-sharing service that operates in other countries.

more:
https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0728/893553-uber-ireland/

Dyr

Good on the NTA

GhostyMcGhost

Mr.S wrote: »

Better cars
Better drivers
Cheaper
Easier to order a car and pay

Yes, very undesirable

Nice timing. Especially when taxi fares are about to increase too

Wanderer78

Am I right in saying uber is banned in Germany?

magicbastarder

what's the deal if you're involved in an accident and your insurer finds that you were using your car for commercial activities?

Dravokivich

Mr.S wrote: »

Better cars
Better drivers
Cheaper
Easier to order a car and pay

Yes, very undesirable

How is it cheaper? I thought they went up during peak times?

bk

Dravokivich wrote: »

How is it cheaper? I thought they went up during peak times?

Surge pricing, but doesn't really happen much.

In the US they are generally a good bit cheaper then Taxi's and during surge pricing they are often still slightly cheaper or just on par with Taxi's.

But then there is UberPool which is seriously cheap. You basically share the car with other people it picks up along the route. Fantastic service.

magicbastarder

magicbastarder wrote: »

what's the deal if you're involved in an accident and your insurer finds that you were using your car for commercial activities?

Was thinking the same, also would there be an obligation to hold a PSV license?

Mr.Frame

Mr.S wrote: »

Better cars
Better drivers
Cheaper
Easier to order a car and pay

Yes, very undesirable

How so?
How are they better drivers , betters cars, cheaper, easier to order ect ?

cruizer101

Deleted User wrote: »

Was thinking the same, also would there be an obligation to hold a PSV license?

Yeah that was my understanding of why it hadn't taken off in Ireland due to the requirement of a PSV licence which only really taxi drivers have anyway, so they were the only ones doing uber.

bk

Mr.Frame wrote: »

How so?
How are they better drivers , betters cars, cheaper, easier to order ect ?

Well apps are certainly a million times better and easier to use then the old way of having to ring up a radio company, ughh that was horrible.

Though obviously this isn't unique to Uber.

In the US, Uber certainly ends up having better cars and cheaper then taxis. Usually nice big black cars and SUV's, even on the regular service, much nicer then clapped out yellow taxi's. They end up cheaper due to no need for a million plus taxi medallion.

Of course non of this necessarily translates to Ireland.

howiya

bk wrote: »

Well apps are certainly a million times better and easier to use then the old way of having to ring up a radio company, ughh that was horrible.

Though obviously this isn't unique to Uber.

My use of taxis has shot up tenfold since the introduction of these apps which are generally reliable.

Had a dodgy experience the other week though. Used mytaxi to order a taxi home from work and got offered a free exec upgrade. The app said it was at no extra cost.

Get home and the driver says that'll be €43. He seemed to be able to see that I'd ordered a taxi and not an exec car and said something about putting a note on the job to mytaxi.

I emailed them and it took them four days to reply, only after I engaged with them on twitter. They have since refunded the difference between the 43 and my normal fare (approx 28).

Thought it was a bit cheeky to be honest. Their response was we're sorry that you weren't happy with the fare. Nobody could answer my question which was when something is given to me a free upgrade, why should it cost me anything extra.

They also said that they cannot stop exec drivers taking normal taxi job requests and that if I get one again I should cancel it. I then asked why would I want to cancel a "free upgrade" to which they wouldn't answer.

Mr.H

Good. Screw uber

I was in London recently with my girlfriend. We decided to get an uber. Ordered it on the app and it arrived not to long after. She got in first and he started to drive with the door still open and me trying to get in..... he stopped quickly when he realised. But then it got worse. About a block or two into the journey the app on is dashboard said we cancelled our uber even though we were in it! He then started to shout at us. After it calmed down he offered to take us to our destination for a cash fee rather than pay through uber. The fee was around what we would have paid through uber but I thought screw this guy. Maybe he didn't accept us on his end that he collected us and this is a way of making cash without uber fees. The trouble is we were charged a penalty for cancelling even though we didn't cancel. I told him what I thought of him and then he stopped and told us to get out. As I got out I told him where to go of course not that it did anything other than make me feel slightly better. So that meant we were left down an alleyway in the middle of London in the middle of the night.

Thank god we have smart phones with maps or else we wouldn't have a clue how to get to our hotel from there.

Ended up getting a black cab not far from where we were abandoned.

So uber can go to hell. What protects people from drivers like this. At least taxis are regulated and safe. Anyone could be driving here ubers and it's a public safety concern.

You wanna drive a taxi get a flipping license. They aren't even that expensive anymore.

plodder

Mr.H wrote: »

You wanna drive a taxi get a flipping license. They aren't even that expensive anymore.

Think I'd agree with that. I've used uber in the US, and it was fine, but it has to be pot luck when it's unregulated like that. Maybe we did the right thing in liberalising the business but not deregulating it completely. Compare to the bad old days of the last century, taxis aren't too bad here now.

bk

Mr.H wrote: »

Good. Screw uber
So uber can go to hell. What protects people from drivers like this. At least taxis are regulated and safe. Anyone could be driving here ubers and it's a public safety concern.

What happened to you was terrible, but wasn't Ubers fault, it was the drivers fault and I've had worse happen with Taxis in Dublin *

Also BTW all Uber drivers in the UK most have a private hire licence. So really no different to taxi drivers here in Ireland:

https://www.uber.com/en-GB/drive/requirements/

* Some choice experiences I've had with Taxi's in Dublin.

- Girlfriend, orders a taxi to Clontarf DART station. He says where you are going on the DART, says he will bring her there. She says no thanks. He says Clontarf Dart station isn't safe at night, he will bring her to Connolly instead, much safer :rolleyes: She says no, Clontarf please. He ends up bringing her to Killester DART station, totally freaks her out and has me almost calling the Gardai until he left her out (I wasn't in the Taxi on text to the GF or I would have bollicked him out for it). Reported him to the NTA next day, never did hear what happened.

- Jump into a Taxi at Dublin Airport. Told him where I was going and he proceeds to scream and shout about how it is a short journey, etc. (it is medium distance), and I had a cheek wasting his time! Had I not had bags in the boot I would have told him to stop and feck off.

- An Irish taxi driver who didn't know where Drumcondra Road was! I'm like the road to the Airport and he is like ah... right!

Mr.Frame

bk wrote: »

What happened to you was terrible, but wasn't Ubers fault, it was the drivers fault and I've had worse happen with Taxis in Dublin *

Also BTW all Uber drivers in the UK most have a private hire licence. So really no different to taxi drivers here in Ireland:

Really ? I thought SPSV stood for Small "Public" Service Vehicle, not "private". They're not the same.

bk

Mr.Frame wrote: »

Really ? I thought SPSV stood for Small "Public" Service Vehicle, not "private". They're not the same.

SPSV does stand for that, but they are basically the same thing.

SPSV is an overall licence that includes all vehicles for hire by the "public", including Taxis, Hackneys and Limos.

In the UK, they have two separate licences. Taxi licenses specifically for Taxis. And Private Hire Licence for mini cabs (what we call hackneys) and Limos.

https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/taxis-and-private-hire/licensing/private-hire-vehicle-licence

Thing is Taxi Licences in the UK require a much higher standard (the knowledge in London, etc.) then they do here. Taxi Licenses here is more similar to the PHL in the UK.

There is a difference in naming between UK and Ireland.

UK - Taxis, sometimes also called Hackneys and Black Cabs, can pick up on the street, require a Taxi licence
Uk - Mini-cabs and Limos, can't pick up on the street, only book by phone or app, require a PHL

Ireland - Taxis, can pick up from the street, require a SPSV
Ireland - Hackneys (note different from the UK) and Limos, can't pick up from the street, only phone and app bookings, also require a SPSV.

The UK system is more like the old Irish system where you had separate taxi and hackney licenses.

But the point is that Uber drivers are still fully licensed in the UK and really isn't much difference in the requirements between a PHL there and a SPSV here.

ED E

Id also add while in theory Irish taxis are regulated, we don't get much for that regulation. Clapped out cars driven in downright dangerous ways. NTA/Carriage office aren't interested in public safety.

Mr.Frame

ED E wrote: »

Id also add while in theory Irish taxis are regulated, we don't get much for that regulation. Clapped out cars driven in downright dangerous ways. NTA/Carriage office aren't interested in public safety.

Thats a rather startling comment to make.

So every taxi "clapped out" and every driver drives dangerously?
What evidence have you to say that the NTA are not interested in public safety. Im sure they would disagree and take issue with that.

listermint

Uber is one of the latest i a line of linchpins in a race to the bottom for wage structures.

It should not be welcomed in any form.

Its sole purpose is to under cut local business, circumvent local laws, A price race to the bottom under the guise of being better for the consumer.

Sorry but no thanks, they can keep it in the US where it fits in with the race to the bottom over there.

Mr.Frame

listermint wrote: »

Uber is one of the latest i a line of linchpins in a race to the bottom for wage structures.

It should not be welcomed in any form.

Its sole purpose is to under cut local business, circumvent local laws, A price race to the bottom under the guise of being better for the consumer.

Sorry but no thanks, they can keep it in the US where it fits in with the race to the bottom over there.

Fair comment, I have to agree. Uber along with another very popular delivery company (mostly use push bikes and a dangerous looking delivery box on the back of the cyclist)are most definitely creating a price race to the bottom.

bk

A counter argument. Since I started using Uber and Hailo/MyTaxi my usage of Taxi's has gone way up. It makes it so much easier and frictionless. All my friends and colleagues say the same. The old way was just terrible.

I've seen reports in the usage that show the use of hire vehicles has increased significantly since Uber/Lyft entered the market in the US and that there are more people then ever employed in the industry overall.

Of course like any disruptive technology, there are winners and losers. Certainly folks who had paid million+ for Taxi medallions are losing out as are the traditional dispatch companies. Not too different to the effect deregulation had here.

Of course these companies long term game plan is self driving vehicles, which will simply destroy the for hire vehicle industry.

BTW I'm not sure what your issue with Deliveroo is! They normally do deliveries from more high end type restaurants which in the past had no delivery option. It is an extra option for people and certainly not cheap at all, actually quiet expensive. I don't see how that is a race to the bottom?!

magicbastarder

bk wrote: »

A counter argument. Since I started using Uber and Hailo/MyTaxi my usage of Taxi's has gone way up. It makes it so much easier and frictionless. All my friends and colleagues say the same. The old way was just terrible.

you're conflating the benefit of a decent taxi booking app with what uber would bring though; and they're not the same.

plus, i guess the comment about deliveroo was probably in relation to how the 'employees' are treated; a comment on the gig economy rather than on the benefit of restaurants gaining a delivery option.

bk

magicbastarder wrote: »

you're conflating the benefit of a decent taxi booking app with what uber would bring though; and they're not the same.

True, though if you listen to folks on the Taxi Driver forums, they also seem to think the likes of Hailo/MyTaxi, Lynk, etc. are the devil spawn.

It really makes no sense at all.

magicbastarder wrote: »

plus, i guess the comment about deliveroo was probably in relation to how the 'employees' are treated; a comment on the gig economy rather than on the benefit of restaurants gaining a delivery option.

But people were saying race to the bottom. Before Deliveroo, there was simply zero people doing this job, so there simply couldn't be a race to the bottom. Deliveroo created whole new jobs that never existed before, that is a good thing. They saw a gap in the market and delivered a totally new service that I don't see hurting anyone else.

As for the way's employees are treated. Welcome to the entire restaurant/bar/catering industry. Minimum wages, crappy hours, slaving in kitchens, all round.

Not saying it is a good thing, it isn't, I think it is exactly the type of thing unions should be fighting for rather then well paid public servants, but they seem to care little about it! But it is an industry wide problem and not a problem with any one company.

Mr.Frame

bk wrote: »

True, though if you listen to folks on the Taxi Driver forums, they also seem to think the likes of Hailo/MyTaxi, Lynk, etc. are the devil spawn.

It really makes no sense at all.

Who do the folks on Taxi Driver Forum represent?

bk wrote: »

But people were saying race to the bottom. Before Deliveroo, there was simply zero people doing this job, so there simply couldn't be a race to the bottom. Deliveroo created whole new jobs that never existed before, that is a good thing. They saw a gap in the market and delivered a totally new service that I don't see hurting anyone else.

As for the way's employees are treated. Welcome to the entire restaurant/bar/catering industry. Minimum wages, crappy hours, slaving in kitchens, all round.

Not saying it is a good thing, it isn't, I think it is exactly the type of thing unions should be fighting for rather then well paid public servants, but they seem to care little about it! But it is an industry wide problem and not a problem with any one company.

There were /are plenty of people doing deliveries. As for the company you mentioned , it is widely accepted that they dont exactly treat their "employees" fairly.
But thats for another topic http://www.huckmagazine.com/perspectives/worked-deliveroo-rider-trust-must-support-strike/

magicbastarder

bk wrote: »

True, though if you listen to folks on the Taxi Driver forums, they also seem to think the likes of Hailo/MyTaxi, Lynk, etc. are the devil spawn.

It really makes no sense at all.

i probably should steer clear of that forum so.

Harry Palmr

What is the insurance situation for those who sign up to Uber, are drivers obliged to have public liability cover and if so who pays for it?

bk

magicbastarder wrote: »

i probably should steer clear of that forum so.

You really should, it is a horrible toxic place. Literally one of the worst forums of any type I've ever seen on the internet.

It certainly doesn't reflect well on taxi drivers. Though I've no doubt it is just a minority of drivers and the majority of normal drivers keep well away from it.

But for those minority :eek:

Marcusm

cruizer101 wrote: »

Yeah that was my understanding of why it hadn't taken off in Ireland due to the requirement of a PSV licence which only really taxi drivers have anyway, so they were the only ones doing uber.

The market changed in Ireland post deregulation. In the past hackney drivers would have been a good market for Uber just as they have for mini cab drivers in the UK. PSV license, appropriate vehicle and normal regulation. The whole "ride sharing" is a neat idea in a non commercial sense but if they were going to have any prospect of getting it approved there would have to be some limit - for example, no more than 3 rides per day offered. If you're going to run a commercial cab service, it should be regulated. Personally, I think the Taxi Regulator needs more teeth, not a whole class of cab outside its reach.

Marcusm

Mr.H wrote: »

Good. Screw uber

I was in London recently with my girlfriend. We decided to get an uber. Ordered it on the app and it arrived not to long after. She got in first and he started to drive with the door still open and me trying to get in..... he stopped quickly when he realised. But then it got worse. About a block or two into the journey the app on is dashboard said we cancelled our uber even though we were in it! He then started to shout at us. After it calmed down he offered to take us to our destination for a cash fee rather than pay through uber. The fee was around what we would have paid through uber but I thought screw this guy. Maybe he didn't accept us on his end that he collected us and this is a way of making cash without uber fees. The trouble is we were charged a penalty for cancelling even though we didn't cancel. I told him what I thought of him and then he stopped and told us to get out. As I got out I told him where to go of course not that it did anything other than make me feel slightly better. So that meant we were left down an alleyway in the middle of London in the middle of the night.

Thank god we have smart phones with maps or else we wouldn't have a clue how to get to our hotel from there.

Ended up getting a black cab not far from where we were abandoned.

So uber can go to hell. What protects people from drivers like this. At least taxis are regulated and safe. Anyone could be driving here ubers and it's a public safety concern.

You wanna drive a taxi get a flipping license. They aren't even that expensive anymore.

You should have complained to TfL, he had to be a licensed private hire vehicle (minicab in UK, used to be called hackneys in Ireland). You'll still have his details to make the complaint.

bk

Mr.Frame wrote: »

There were /are plenty of people doing deliveries. As for the company you mentioned , it is widely accepted that they dont exactly treat their "employees" fairly.

There are food delivery companies like Dominoes, etc.

But the restaurants I see on Deliveroo in my area I know for a fact never had a delivery service. There are all more traditional restaurants that at best you could call up and pick up take-away from yourself, but they didn't deliver.

Deliveroo in my experience brought something completely new to the market. Pick up from higher end restaurants rather then your normal fast food pizza/chinese/indian take-away and delivery.

And if you think those take-away places are paying their drivers any better, you are kidding yourself.

Harry Palmr wrote:

What is the insurance situation for those who sign up to Uber, are drivers obliged to have public liability cover and if so who pays for it?

Uber in Ireland currently only operate Taxis and Limos, with full SPSV's and all the requirements that go with that.