Should Ireland allow transgender people in the army?

Obviously based on this whole thing in America. A quick look at Wikipedia says the following countries allow it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_orientation_and_military_service

"Australia, Austria, Belgium, Bolivia, Canada, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Israel, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Spain, Sweden, and the United Kingdom."


So now loads of people are up in arms saying that it's discrimination for America to not allow trans people to serve. Trump being attached obviously makes it more visceral.

Personally, I think if the entire process is done and over and the person is comfortable with their new sex, it'd be fine. But a 40% suicide rate, in America anyway, is pretty insane, along with the extreme stress a person must be under before and during the process. So in my opinion, a blanket "no" makes more sense than a blanket "yes".

Gender dysphoria is a mental illness, intuitively and according to the WHO. It's not a sexual preference, though we all forget that because of lgbt. While harsh, you're giving a gun and the responsibility of saving lives to a person who wants to cut off parts of their body. You can't just ignore suicide stats.

The more rapid fire among you probably think I'm anti-lgbt but that's to be expected online. I don't care what other people do with their bodies. This isn't about that.

suicide_circus

This is the single most important issue of our time

Irish Praetorian

Yes.

IvySlayer

As long as they have been stable in their gender for a certain time and can pass the fitness requirements yes if they want to serve there should be no objection.

_Brian

Be fine.

What's happening in America is more electioneering that anything else.

We should probably discuss homelessness and other real issues than just following the rabbling of idiots on twitter.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

The_Valeyard

A similar thread to this started earlier, it lasted about 4minutes before it was deleted.

suicide_circus

suicide_circus wrote: »

This is the single most important issue of our time

It's a debate topic in After Hours. Get over yourself.

The_Valeyard

The_Valeyard wrote: »

A similar thread to this started earlier, it lasted about 4minutes before it was deleted.

That's pretty pathetic for a forum if true.

The_Valeyard

suicide_circus wrote: »

This is the single most important issue of our time

That's would be the colour of unicorn farts

The_Valeyard

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That's pretty pathetic for a forum if true.

I'm sure there was a reason cant remember who the OP was.

suicide_circus

Deleted User wrote: »

It's a debate topic in After Hours. Get over yourself.

It wasn't a personal attack

I just think this particular demographic receive a strangly disproportionate amount of airtime. They are a social and political football for both sides.

Beta Ray Bill

Yes, but not on a Submarine... for obvious reasons!

Del2005

A person who wants to commit suicide would be useful for the cannon fodder regiment, their sex would be irrelevant.

IvySlayer

Trump has supported transgender people in the past but is now saying this to energise his conservative base.

Unfortunately it may have bad side effects on some vulnerable people, Obama has signed orders to allow transgender to serve before and the republicans plan to reverse every Obama law is underway

Richard Hillman

No issue as long as they get psychological testing and get treated as per their born gender.

An Army needs to be a well drilled killing machine. It has no place for political correctness or virtue signalling.

Victor

I think understanding the idea of someone being transgender is difficult for most people, as it challenges one of the basic concepts we learn at a young age. Now imagine what is is like to be that person.

Deleted User wrote: »

But a 40% suicide rate, in America anyway

Context? Source?

along with the extreme stress a person must be under before and during the process.

Not everyone who identifies as transgender undergoes a transition. Some do so before military service, some do it after.

So in my opinion, a blanket "no" makes more sense than a blanket "yes".

Or how about assessing the individual, just as the military induction process assesses every other recruit.

Gender dysphoria is a mental illness

Source?

On the flip side: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria

The American Psychiatric Association, publisher of the DSM-5, states that "gender nonconformity is not in itself a mental disorder. The critical element of gender dysphoria is the presence of clinically significant distress associated with the condition."

In December 2002, the British Lord Chancellor's office published a Government Policy Concerning Transsexual People document that categorically states, "What transsexualism is not ... It is not a mental illness."[51] In May 2009, the government of France declared that a transsexual gender identity will no longer be classified as a psychiatric condition.[52]

While harsh, you're giving a gun and the responsibility of saving lives to a person who wants to cut off parts of their body.

And other people want breast reductions, circumcisions, cosmetic surgery ...

You can't just ignore suicide stats.

So maybe you should stop bashing people who identify as transgender.

I don't care what other people do with their bodies.

But you say:

While harsh, you're giving a gun and the responsibility of saving lives to a person who wants to cut off parts of their body.

The_Valeyard

IvySlayer wrote: »

Trump has supported transgender people in the past but is now saying this to energise his conservative base.

Unfortunately it may have bad side effects on some vulnerable people, Obama has signed orders to allow transgender to serve before and the republicans plan to reverse every Obama law is underway

Didnt Obama inact a similar policy seven days before he left office or am I incorrectly remembering something?

bennyl10

Richard Hillman wrote: »

No issue as long as they get psychological testing and get treated as per their born gender.

An Army needs to be a well drilled killing machine. It has no place for political correctness or virtue signalling.

Christ almighty..

It's 2017?!!

Psychological testing for trans people?! This isn't actually something that people thing?..
Please lord almighty... Trump is catching seemingly..

The Irish army also? A killing machine? Ah come on now...

Dyr

Do you really want people with a track record of switching sides in the army?

Barry Badrinath

Firstly, the Defence Forces is as inclusive an organisation as it can practically be.

Transgender folk have applied to join the Defence Forces in the last few years. Not being an expert of Transgender issues or the logistics of it all, there are complications with regard to the medical responsibility to the person.

You have to be medically, physically and mentally fit to have a hope of joining. Applicants who are on long term medication for certain issues are not ideal candidates for enlistment and have been excluded on this basis. This is due to the high stress environment and operational requirements at home and abroad.

Pre Op, transitioning and Post Op, I would imagine these folk require medication and possibly a specific support network, maybe even councellors but I am very open to correction.

It's not a straight forward, yes or no answer. There are a wide variety of factors to be considered.

My own opinion as a serving soldier, I dont give a monkeys what you are, if you can soldier, you can soldier.

tomwaterford

grahambo wrote: »

Yes, but not on a Submarine... for obvious reasons!

This may be a more relevent question....deos Ireland own a submarine??

The_Valeyard

Richard Hillman wrote: »

No issue as long as they get psychological testing and get treated as per their born gender.

An Army needs to be a well drilled killing machine. It has no place for political correctness or virtue signalling.

I think some of the reasoning from what I was reading is the amount of time that soldier would be unable for deployment due to treatment and the cost of treatment would stretch the already small medical budget. Not saying it's right or wrong just from what I've read.

The_Valeyard

tomwaterford wrote: »

This may be a more relevent question....deos Ireland own a submarine??

I think we have a mini sub for geological research, but not am actual Wolf class sub or anything cool like that.

suicide_circus

suicide_circus wrote: »

I just think this particular demographic receive a strangly disproportionate amount of airtime. They are a social and political football for both sides.

You would wonder if there is a transgenderism epidemic the amount you hear about transgender issues in the media.

The fact is, its a very complex issue which is not fully understood.

IvySlayer

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Didnt Obama inact a similar policy seven days before he left office or am I incorrectly remembering something?

Obama stopped the transgender ban in 2016.

He did make an order on schools to allow transgender students use the bathroon of their choice shortly before leaving

Victor

Victor wrote: »

I think understanding the idea of someone being transgender is difficult for most people, as it challenges one of the basic concepts we learn at a young age. Now imagine what is is like to be that person.

Context? Source?

Not everyone who identifies as transgender undergoes a transition. Some do so before military service, some do it after.

Or how about assessing the individual, just as the military induction process assesses every other recruit.

Source?

On the flip side: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria



And other people want breast reductions, circumcisions, cosmetic surgery ...

So maybe you should stop bashing people who identify as transgender.

But you say:

I was gonna write an intelligent reply till i saw where you accused me of bashing trans people.

tomwaterford

bennyl10 wrote: »

Christ almighty..

It's 2017?!!

Psychological testing for trans people?! This isn't actually something that people thing?..
Please lord almighty... Trump is catching seemingly..

The Irish army also? A killing machine? Ah come on now...

I'd be surprised if they allowed someone have a trans op without some pretty severe psychological testing??

IvySlayer

The_Valeyard wrote: »

I think some of the reasoning from what I was reading is the amount of time that soldier would be unable for deployment due to treatment and the cost of treatment would stretch the already small medical budget. Not saying it's right or wrong just from what I've read.

If they can't pass the army physical requirements then they shouldn't be in the army...Does the military do transgender surgery or something?

Victor

tomwaterford wrote: »

This may be a more relevent question....deos Ireland own a submarine??

Some submersible vehicles, but not submarines.

Nermal

Victor wrote: »

The American Psychiatric Association, publisher of the DSM-5, states that "gender nonconformity is not in itself a mental disorder. The critical element of gender dysphoria is the presence of clinically significant distress associated with the condition."

The DSM-5, like most of the output of psychiatry, has no scientific basis. It's just an opinion.

If society at large chooses to define transgender people as mentally ill, then they are mentally ill. Let's not pretend it's not socially determined.

Gatling

IvySlayer wrote: »

If they can't pass the army physical requirements then they shouldn't be in the army...Does the military do transgender surgery or something?

America maybe and a very expensive operation at a time when soldiers are poorly paid as it is

_Brian

On a side note.

My estimate would be the high suicide rate is surely through the way they are treated by society - banning them from being full members of society is hardly going to help.

Skylinehead

Deleted User wrote: »

That's pretty pathetic for a forum if true.

It was a thread started by a rereg, we delete rereg threads. Get over yourself, as you say

bennyl10

bennyl10 wrote: »

Christ almighty..

It's 2017?!!

Psychological testing for trans people?! This isn't actually something that people thing?..
Please lord almighty... Trump is catching seemingly..

No, it sounds like the anti-Trump is catching on. We have people now like yourself who think trans people are 100% ok mentally when the stats say otherwise.

Trans people I've befriended over the years all talked about the issues with it.

Richard Hillman

bennyl10 wrote: »

Christ almighty..

It's 2017?!!

Psychological testing for trans people?! This isn't actually something that people thing?..
Please lord almighty... Trump is catching seemingly..

The Irish army also? A killing machine? Ah come on now...

Yes, when need be, a killing machine.

What happens if they are on a peace keeping mission, get attacked and have to hole out for a few days in the **** hole of nowhere and some geezer is on the skag for hormone pills?

Do we ask the local warlord for safe passage? :pac:

The_Valeyard

IvySlayer wrote: »

If they can't pass the army physical requirements then they shouldn't be in the army...Does the military do transgender surgery or something?

I think they would have to pay the upkeep of treatment and hormone therapy and all the other doctor or councillor visits. Could possibly be wary of medication that could alter judgement or affect performance and duty.

IvySlayer

Gatling wrote: »

America maybe and a very expensive operation at a time when soldiers are poorly paid as it is

I don't think the army should be responsible for that...Gender reassignment surgery should be down to the individual to pay for. Hormonal treatment maybe but the military was given a massive increase in their budget so I don't think its about cost.

Trump isn't saying that though...

gizmo81

Lots of incorrect information going on here.

Operations aren't compulsory for people who are transgender.

Many people who are transgender don't take medication.

Transgender is a broad spectrum and many of the comments here are trying to reduce it to one form of being. It is not.

branie2

Yes, they should

somefeen

Would I be right in saying that Ireland already does, it simply doesn't appear on the wikipedia list because we have never expressly allowed or disallowed it?

I don't see the problem. If someone can pass the requirements medically, mentally and physically then they should be allowed.

Bandying about suicide statistics is a complete red herring. Young men also show high rates of suicide yet make up the majority of armies world wide.

We also have a strange notion of trans people, like they are all unstable, unfit special snowflakes that couldn't be trusted with a position of responsibility. I'd nearly guarantee the majority just want to live as their true gender and get on with things.

bennyl10

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No, it sounds like the anti-Trump is catching on. We have people now like yourself who think trans people are 100% ok mentally when the stats say otherwise.

Trans people I've befriended over the years all talked about the issues with it.

Trans is a very broad spectrum of people though?
Not all trans people are mentally unwell?
Not all trans people are in search of surgery

Should they be allowed in our army?
100% yes if they are fit enough.

Annasopra

bennyl10 wrote: »

Trans is a very broad spectrum of people though?
Not all trans people are mentally unwell?
Not all trans people are in search of surgery

Should they be allowed in our army?
100% yes if they are fit enough.

Absolutely nobody should be in the army if they are more concerned with fellow officers gender than the task at hand. There are many trans army personell across the world who are good at their job. In the UK for example there are a good few highly decorated and accomplished trans people working in the army often on front line and they are held in high regard by all. Their gender does not in anyway diminish their expertise or skillset. That is a fact.

The UK army has quite a good policy.


"The Army welcomes people from all backgrounds.

"Whatever your gender, race, ethnic origin or religious belief, there is a role for you in the Army.

"No account is taken of sexual orientation or social background.

"The Army has a strict code of conduct to make sure that everyone is treated fairly."

It adds: "The Army welcomes transgender personnel and ensures that all who apply to join are considered for service subject to meeting the same mental and physical entry standard as any other candidate.

If you have completed transition you will be treated as an individual of your acquired gender.

"Transgender soldiers serve throughout the Army playing their part in the country’s security.

"There is a formal network that operates in the Army to ensure that transgender soldiers can find advice and support with issues that affect their daily lives."

bazza1

Make it compulsory and let the fun ensue!

tomwaterford

tomwaterford wrote: »

So you wouldn't allow them into the military band??

But tbf if you ban all people of mental illness from the army....it'll be low on number going by those who suffer post traumatic disorders?

I'd have thought someone with PTSD wouldn't be allowed to serve.

Temptamperu

Theres more people offended by this than there are trans people.

Gatling

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'd have thought someone with PTSD wouldn't be allowed to serve.

Most get medical discharged as they become unfit for duty ,
For a long time the Irish Defence forces wouldn't even recognise PTSD

ligerdub

Before this is debated in any meaningful way I think it would be good to note that the chances of a member of the Irish army getting involved (outside of peacekeeping corps duties) in an armed conflict is very unlikely. The chances are that this issue hasn't come up as a point of discussion before is because 1) it has absolutely never needed to be confronted by a live case in this country and 2) the chances of it happening are quite small.

This also isn't a discussion along the normal lines of some people thinking transgender thing is the most normal thing in the world and that it should be seen everywhere.......this is probably the preamble to "Are we ready for a transgender President in Ireland?" or some ****e where the same arguments are used.

On a similar note this could just be another subtle topic where it becomes an avalanche of anti-Trump stuff which has been incessant for about a year now.

In terms of a transgender person in the military, I think there are two particular events which lead to significant psychological damage. One is the trauma of experiencing proper military conflict, the share of people who just can't seem to adapt to their lives when they return is staggering, and that's your standard male in his 20's with an otherwise healthy amount to contribute to society. Second then is the impact of going through gender reassignment. There is both the physical (notably the chemical) and psychological changes to deal with when it comes to switching gender.

Even assuming the treatment was a long time in the past, the true test of getting over any trauma is to put it to a real test, and it doesn't get any starker than in a warzone.

That's not even considering the reasonable (in my eyes) assertion that there is a degree of mental illness involved in somebody wishing to change from one gender to the other, assuming of course they were fully functional/formed as either male or female before they underwent a sex change.

The military is no place to throw caution to the wind in terms of the sort of people this service is suited for, and if there's any concern then I think it's appropriate to err massively on the cautious side. A significant proportion of the overall population may possibly fail an evaluation to get in, for all sorts of reasons, and I could see right off the bat why transgenders would automatically not fall into the suitable category. Let's not forget that the most noteworthy association of the terms "transgender" and "military" up until now has involved a former soldier who turned traitor to his nation and was lucky to avoid being executed for what he did (I'm glad he wasn't)....instead he gets pardoned completed by Obama.

somefeen

Nermal wrote: »

The DSM-5, like most of the output of psychiatry, has no scientific basis. It's just an opinion.

If society at large chooses to define transgender people as mentally ill, then they are mentally ill. Let's not pretend it's not socially determined.

Its not socially determined.

Its determined by the individuals experience.

Being trans doesn't in itself make you mentally ill. If you are trans and suffer depression, suicidal ideation or social anxiety due to it then these are your mental illnesses.

It's like if you had a really big nose and were suicidal because of it and it gave you anxiety. Your nose doesn't become a mental illness.

Yourself isit

gizmo81 wrote: »

Lots of incorrect information going on here.

Operations aren't compulsory for people who are transgender.

Many people who are transgender don't take medication.

Transgender is a broad spectrum and many of the comments here are trying to reduce it to one form of being. It is not.

Does this mean that a biological male who sees herself as female and who is not on medication and not "transitioned" can shower and sleep with the (cis)ladies?

branie2

They should be allowed in our naval service as well.