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Should Ireland allow transgender people in the army?

[Deleted User]

Obviously based on this whole thing in America. A quick look at Wikipedia says the following countries allow it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_orientation_and_military_service

"Australia, Austria, Belgium, Bolivia, Canada, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Israel, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Spain, Sweden, and the United Kingdom."

So now loads of people are up in arms saying that it's discrimination for America to not allow trans people to serve. Trump being attached obviously makes it more visceral.

Personally, I think if the entire process is done and over and the person is comfortable with their new sex, it'd be fine. But a 40% suicide rate, in America anyway, is pretty insane, along with the extreme stress a person must be under before and during the process. So in my opinion, a blanket "no" makes more sense than a blanket "yes".

Gender dysphoria is a mental illness, intuitively and according to the WHO. It's not a sexual preference, though we all forget that because of lgbt. While harsh, you're giving a gun and the responsibility of saving lives to a person who wants to cut off parts of their body. You can't just ignore suicide stats.

The more rapid fire among you probably think I'm anti-lgbt but that's to be expected online. I don't care what other people do with their bodies. This isn't about that.

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suicide_circus

This is the single most important issue of our time

Irish Praetorian

Yes.

IvySlayer

As long as they have been stable in their gender for a certain time and can pass the fitness requirements yes if they want to serve there should be no objection.

_Brian

Be fine.

What's happening in America is more electioneering that anything else.

We should probably discuss homelessness and other real issues than just following the rabbling of idiots on twitter.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

The_Valeyard

A similar thread to this started earlier, it lasted about 4minutes before it was deleted.

[Deleted User]

suicide_circus wrote: »

This is the single most important issue of our time

It's a debate topic in After Hours. Get over yourself.

[Deleted User]

The_Valeyard wrote: »

A similar thread to this started earlier, it lasted about 4minutes before it was deleted.

That's pretty pathetic for a forum if true.

The_Valeyard

suicide_circus wrote: »

This is the single most important issue of our time

That's would be the colour of unicorn farts

The_Valeyard

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That's pretty pathetic for a forum if true.

I'm sure there was a reason cant remember who the OP was.

suicide_circus

Deleted User wrote: »

It's a debate topic in After Hours. Get over yourself.

It wasn't a personal attack

I just think this particular demographic receive a strangly disproportionate amount of airtime. They are a social and political football for both sides.

Beta Ray Bill

Yes, but not on a Submarine... for obvious reasons!

Del2005

A person who wants to commit suicide would be useful for the cannon fodder regiment, their sex would be irrelevant.

IvySlayer

Trump has supported transgender people in the past but is now saying this to energise his conservative base.

Unfortunately it may have bad side effects on some vulnerable people, Obama has signed orders to allow transgender to serve before and the republicans plan to reverse every Obama law is underway

Richard Hillman

No issue as long as they get psychological testing and get treated as per their born gender.

An Army needs to be a well drilled killing machine. It has no place for political correctness or virtue signalling.

Victor

I think understanding the idea of someone being transgender is difficult for most people, as it challenges one of the basic concepts we learn at a young age. Now imagine what is is like to be that person.

Deleted User wrote: »

But a 40% suicide rate, in America anyway

Context? Source?

along with the extreme stress a person must be under before and during the process.

Not everyone who identifies as transgender undergoes a transition. Some do so before military service, some do it after.

So in my opinion, a blanket "no" makes more sense than a blanket "yes".

Or how about assessing the individual, just as the military induction process assesses every other recruit.

Gender dysphoria is a mental illness

Source?

On the flip side: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria

The American Psychiatric Association, publisher of the DSM-5, states that "gender nonconformity is not in itself a mental disorder. The critical element of gender dysphoria is the presence of clinically significant distress associated with the condition."

In December 2002, the British Lord Chancellor's office published a Government Policy Concerning Transsexual People document that categorically states, "What transsexualism is not ... It is not a mental illness."[51] In May 2009, the government of France declared that a transsexual gender identity will no longer be classified as a psychiatric condition.[52]

While harsh, you're giving a gun and the responsibility of saving lives to a person who wants to cut off parts of their body.

And other people want breast reductions, circumcisions, cosmetic surgery ...

You can't just ignore suicide stats.

So maybe you should stop bashing people who identify as transgender.

I don't care what other people do with their bodies.

But you say:

While harsh, you're giving a gun and the responsibility of saving lives to a person who wants to cut off parts of their body.

The_Valeyard

IvySlayer wrote: »

Trump has supported transgender people in the past but is now saying this to energise his conservative base.

Unfortunately it may have bad side effects on some vulnerable people, Obama has signed orders to allow transgender to serve before and the republicans plan to reverse every Obama law is underway

Didnt Obama inact a similar policy seven days before he left office or am I incorrectly remembering something?

bennyl10

Richard Hillman wrote: »

No issue as long as they get psychological testing and get treated as per their born gender.

An Army needs to be a well drilled killing machine. It has no place for political correctness or virtue signalling.

Christ almighty..

It's 2017?!!

Psychological testing for trans people?! This isn't actually something that people thing?..
Please lord almighty... Trump is catching seemingly..

The Irish army also? A killing machine? Ah come on now...

Dyr

Do you really want people with a track record of switching sides in the army?

Barry Badrinath

Firstly, the Defence Forces is as inclusive an organisation as it can practically be.

Transgender folk have applied to join the Defence Forces in the last few years. Not being an expert of Transgender issues or the logistics of it all, there are complications with regard to the medical responsibility to the person.

You have to be medically, physically and mentally fit to have a hope of joining. Applicants who are on long term medication for certain issues are not ideal candidates for enlistment and have been excluded on this basis. This is due to the high stress environment and operational requirements at home and abroad.

Pre Op, transitioning and Post Op, I would imagine these folk require medication and possibly a specific support network, maybe even councellors but I am very open to correction.

It's not a straight forward, yes or no answer. There are a wide variety of factors to be considered.

My own opinion as a serving soldier, I dont give a monkeys what you are, if you can soldier, you can soldier.

tomwaterford

grahambo wrote: »

Yes, but not on a Submarine... for obvious reasons!

This may be a more relevent question....deos Ireland own a submarine??

The_Valeyard

Richard Hillman wrote: »

No issue as long as they get psychological testing and get treated as per their born gender.

An Army needs to be a well drilled killing machine. It has no place for political correctness or virtue signalling.

I think some of the reasoning from what I was reading is the amount of time that soldier would be unable for deployment due to treatment and the cost of treatment would stretch the already small medical budget. Not saying it's right or wrong just from what I've read.

The_Valeyard

tomwaterford wrote: »

This may be a more relevent question....deos Ireland own a submarine??

I think we have a mini sub for geological research, but not am actual Wolf class sub or anything cool like that.

[Deleted User]

suicide_circus wrote: »

I just think this particular demographic receive a strangly disproportionate amount of airtime. They are a social and political football for both sides.

You would wonder if there is a transgenderism epidemic the amount you hear about transgender issues in the media.

The fact is, its a very complex issue which is not fully understood.

IvySlayer

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Didnt Obama inact a similar policy seven days before he left office or am I incorrectly remembering something?

Obama stopped the transgender ban in 2016.

He did make an order on schools to allow transgender students use the bathroon of their choice shortly before leaving

[Deleted User]

Victor wrote: »

I think understanding the idea of someone being transgender is difficult for most people, as it challenges one of the basic concepts we learn at a young age. Now imagine what is is like to be that person.

Context? Source?

Not everyone who identifies as transgender undergoes a transition. Some do so before military service, some do it after.

Or how about assessing the individual, just as the military induction process assesses every other recruit.

Source?

On the flip side: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria

And other people want breast reductions, circumcisions, cosmetic surgery ...

So maybe you should stop bashing people who identify as transgender.

But you say:

I was gonna write an intelligent reply till i saw where you accused me of bashing trans people.

tomwaterford

bennyl10 wrote: »

Christ almighty..

It's 2017?!!

Psychological testing for trans people?! This isn't actually something that people thing?..
Please lord almighty... Trump is catching seemingly..

The Irish army also? A killing machine? Ah come on now...

I'd be surprised if they allowed someone have a trans op without some pretty severe psychological testing??

IvySlayer

The_Valeyard wrote: »

I think some of the reasoning from what I was reading is the amount of time that soldier would be unable for deployment due to treatment and the cost of treatment would stretch the already small medical budget. Not saying it's right or wrong just from what I've read.

If they can't pass the army physical requirements then they shouldn't be in the army...Does the military do transgender surgery or something?

Victor

tomwaterford wrote: »

This may be a more relevent question....deos Ireland own a submarine??

Some submersible vehicles, but not submarines.

Nermal

Victor wrote: »

The American Psychiatric Association, publisher of the DSM-5, states that "gender nonconformity is not in itself a mental disorder. The critical element of gender dysphoria is the presence of clinically significant distress associated with the condition."

The DSM-5, like most of the output of psychiatry, has no scientific basis. It's just an opinion.

If society at large chooses to define transgender people as mentally ill, then they are mentally ill. Let's not pretend it's not socially determined.