Attic going to be converted. Need advice

Subzero3

Hi, we are getting out Attic converted. A let's say few handy men they did a job on a bathroom for the neighbour so asked for a quote about the Attic. They do extentions ect but there not done an Attic.

Quoted 12k, 4 window,Tank moved, heater, stairs leading to Attic from other bedroom/landing, insulation. Other companies didn't have time to Do it so went ahead on Monday with these fellas with 5k deposit To start in 2weeks once materials arrive.

Now I'm worried I didn't ask the right questions originally from reading stuff on the Internet about cowboy builders, Regarding building regulations ect. What should I look for now while I observe the work? These lads are from eastern Europe so standards might be different.

It's stressing us out big time. Any advice would be appreciated. If it means biting the bullet and trying to get our money back we need to act fast.

Penn

You need an engineer. Hire one who does attic conversions and can advise on structural items, fire safety items, insulation requirements and any other items they may deem necessary.

lawred2

Subzero3 wrote: »

Hi, we are getting out Attic converted. A let's say few handy men they did a job on a bathroom for the neighbour so asked for a quote about the Attic. They do extentions ect but there not done an Attic.

Quoted 12k, 4 window,Tank moved, heater, stairs leading to Attic from other bedroom/landing, insulation. Other companies didn't have time to Do it so went ahead on Monday with these fellas with 5k deposit To start in 2weeks once materials arrive.

Now I'm worried I didn't ask the right questions originally from reading stuff on the Internet about cowboy builders, Regarding building regulations ect. What should I look for now while I observe the work? These lads are from eastern Europe so standards might be different.

It's stressing us out big time. Any advice would be appreciated. If it means biting the bullet and trying to get our money back we need to act fast.

We had ours done recently to a very high standard and it cost near 30k...

Sounds expensive but when you see the amount of work needed and the amount of sub contractors involved you start to understand.

There were however some services in our attic that needed moving (above and beyond water tanks) and we did put in a bathroom so that added to the cost.

All said and done 12k would worry me a little.

Subzero3

lawred2 wrote: »

We had ours done recently to a very high standard and it cost near 30k...

Sounds expensive but when you see the amount of work needed and the amount of sub contractors involved you start to understand.

There were however some services in our attic that needed moving (above and beyond water tanks) and we did put in a bathroom so that added to the cost.

All said and done 12k would worry me a little.

Thanks. It's standard semi detached house, 10 years old. We didn't want an ensuite. He said he will come up from box room, turn stairs right and up along wall. Wall pic attached. Forgive finger drawing.

lawred2

Subzero3 wrote: »

Thanks. It's standard semi detached house, 10 years old. We didn't want an ensuite. He said he will come up from box room, turn stairs right and up along wall. Wall pic attached. Forgive finger drawing.

I hope any contractor's drawings would be better than those

Are you going to lose much of box room?

Gumbo

Structural Requirements.
New floor, steel or timber structure?
Fire Separation.
Fire Doors.
Escape windows.
Smoke Detection linked back to main dwelling.
Self closer retrofit to all other doors.
Ventilations provisions.
Certification on completion?

_Brian

Is it common to give a deposit to a builder like that ??

Have had plenty of work done over the years, never ever gave a builder money up front and I always keep the financial advantage on my side, it gives you more control and ensures a better outcome.

What if this fella just never comes back ??

lawred2

I never gave a deposit either - we agreed a payment plan which involved staged payments at the end of each week's work.

The builder showed his commitment to the job by taking on the first week's costs himself.

No discussion of a deposit whatsoever.

Subzero3

lawred2 wrote: »

I hope any contractor's drawings would be better than those

Are you going to lose much of box room?

He said 1 foot originally. He is coming tomorrow to do drawings and stuff in Attic. So I guess thats my time to ask stuff and be sure. My friend had an Attic done by a company for 11k, 2 windows. He was happy with job. They needed hire separate plumber to connect heater. But the company is booked until Xmas.

We needed it started ASAP due to a new baby hence the rush. All the family will be away for 2 weeks in August so if it was done then it wouldn't be an inconvenience either. That's why we went ahead with these people.

Subzero3

_Brian wrote: »

Is it common to give a deposit to a builder like that ??

Have had plenty of work done over the years, never ever gave a builder money up front and I always keep the financial advantage on my side, it gives you more control and ensures a better outcome.

What if this fella just never comes back ??

The other company wanted money up front to. He wanted 6k then when work starts some and then 1.5k for 3 weeks.

Subzero3

For the record the other company drew up a quote and gave me this. With out extras and vat. Extras include kinspan in storage area, extra window.

lawred2

Subzero3 wrote: »

For the record the other company drew up a quote and gave me this. With out extras and vat. Extras include kinspan in storage area, extra window.

I'm glad that they say that all jobs will be complete. That's important to know

Subzero3

lawred2 wrote: »

I'm glad that they say that all jobs will be complete. That's important to know

That's the company I didn't go for BTW. Other one wrote by hand what herself wanted and came back with the price.

seamus

Ultimately it depends on whether you're talking about an attic conversion or a storage upgrade.

That is, whether the attic is going to be converted into an actual, legally livable room. Or whether you're just going to have a fancy storage room/office.

The latter is usually what people get when they get an "attic conversion", and the work required to do it is pretty much the same for 90% of houses. €12k seems about typical.

A proper attic conversion so that you can say you have an extra bedroom is much more expensive, not least because it requires more expertise, but also more materials.

Subzero3

seamus wrote: »

Ultimately it depends on whether you're talking about an attic conversion or a storage upgrade.

That is, whether the attic is going to be converted into an actual, legally livable room. Or whether you're just going to have a fancy storage room/office.

The latter is usually what people get when they get an "attic conversion", and the work required to do it is pretty much the same for 90% of houses. €12k seems about typical.

A proper attic conversion so that you can say you have an extra bedroom is much more expensive, not least because it requires more expertise, but also more materials.

Thanks seamus. Ya I'm happy for it to be called fancy storage room if the roof don't blow off down the line. If it was not to be called bed room but they will abviously cut through walls ceiling etc what concerns should I have. If I need sell down the line.

Gumbo

Subzero3 wrote: »

Thanks seamus. Ya I'm happy for it to be called fancy storage room if the roof don't blow off down the line. If it was not to be called bed room but they will abviously cut through walls ceiling etc what concerns should I have. If I need sell down the line.

Lack of building regulation compliance (fancy storage or bedroom is irrelevant).
Lack of structural compliance.
Lack of certification.

Subzero3

kceire wrote: »

Lack of building regulation compliance (fancy storage or bedroom is irrelevant).
Lack of structural compliance.
Lack of certification.

Thanks. I'll address those tomorrow. I no I should of before hand but it's to late for that.

Calahonda52

http://www.environ.ie/sites/default/files/migrated-files/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad%2C1657%2Cen.pdf

doubledouble

im also thinking of converting my own attic ...
some good reading here..... cheers to all who replied

doubledouble

if possible id like to see pics.as in finished conversion

Gumbo

doubledouble wrote: »

if possible id like to see pics.as in finished conversion

Why?
It won't show how compliance is met.
It will be different to your own attic.
You may as well google attic conversion for similar pics.

Subzero3

kceire wrote: »

Why?
It won't show how compliance is met.
It will be different to your own attic.
You may as well google attic conversion for similar pics.

Kceire if I got an engineer involved what stages would be need observe to sign a job as compliant?

Gumbo

Subzero3 wrote: »

Kceire if I got an engineer involved what stages would be need observe to sign a job as compliant?

Full survey of existing structure.
Design of new structure.
Erection of new structure before covering up.
Fitting of Fire doors, smoke detection, staircase, means of escape.

2-3 inspections should be enough depending on the complexity of the actual house.

Subzero3

kceire wrote: »

Full survey of existing structure.
Design of new structure.
Erection of new structure before covering up.
Fitting of Fire doors, smoke detection, staircase, means of escape.

2-3 inspections should be enough depending on the complexity of the actual house.

OK I didn't plan on putting a door up there as it's coming from the box room . Escape could only be the window by opening fully.

roy rodgers

If your going for a full attic conversion it's going to cost at least double that price or maybe 3 times the price.
So in another words if your using the extra space as bedroom or man cave it needs to be signed off by an architect and all the documents put into the houses deeds.
The regulations are through the roof (No pun intended) on attic conversions.
I've seen rooms that look like attic conversions but they would of being better off sticking a fold down ladder in and a few sheets of chipboard down for a tenth of the cost.
But from your post you say your putting your putting in 4 roof windows so your hoping to use the room as extra living space so please don't cut corners it needs to be done right.

Subzero3

roy rodgers wrote: »

If your going for a full attic conversion it's going to cost at least double that price or maybe 3 times the price.
So in another words if your using the extra space as bedroom or man cave it needs to be signed off by an architect and all the documents put into the houses deeds.
The regulations are through the roof (No pun intended) on attic conversions.
I've seen rooms that look like attic conversions but they would of being better off sticking a fold down ladder in and a few sheets of chipboard down for a tenth of the cost.
But from your post you say your putting your putting in 4 roof windows so your hoping to use the room as extra living space so please don't cut corners it needs to be done right.

Thanks lads I've dug myself into a right hole on this one. Any tips on when the builder calls tomorrow
To measure stuff

A2LUE42

Can you do a quick sketch of the upstairs layout and the direction of the existing stairs? It might be possible to keep the box room.
Are all the existing rafters going to be modified and are they pre trussed or put together on site. I presume the former. If so then you need new beams/joists, as the existing bottoms of the A frames won't be of a sufficient size.
Sound proofing the floor. It could be quite noisy if there isn't enough under the laminate flooring. You might consider carpeting instead of laminate?

roy rodgers

See what you actually want out of this, is it a room that is going to be apart of the house or and storage space and go from there. If your going for a room that's apart of the house be straight with the builder and tell him what you want. That cert from the architect will put the value of the house up the cost of the conversion. Without it in the long term your gonna lose money.

Tell the builder that your changing things and get him drawings he will more than likely need to requote and be as fair as possible with him

johnny_adidas

_Brian wrote: »

Is it common to give a deposit to a builder like that ??

Have had plenty of work done over the years, never ever gave a builder money up front and I always keep the financial advantage on my side, it gives you more control and ensures a better outcome.

What if this fella just never comes back ??

Very dangerous to hand over a big cash deposit up front, lot of scams in the UK run like this. If a builder's cash flow is that poor for a 12k job then that would set off alarm bells for me.

This guy could well be genuine and do a great job within budget, however if something goes wrong or there's a disagreement with the extent of works/final finishes, the builder can clear off leaving you with a half done job and not enough money to complete.
I would advise further payments are based on the work completed and at worst, holding at least a 10% final payment until its completed to satisfaction.

I just hope the OP has some sort of written contract and receipt for the deposit in case things go pear shaped.

Subzero3

johnny_adidas wrote: »

Very dangerous to hand over a big cash deposit up front, lot of scams in the UK run like this. If a builder's cash flow is that poor for a 12k job then that would set off alarm bells for me.

This guy could well be genuine and do a great job within budget, however if something goes wrong or there's a disagreement with the extent of works/final finishes, the builder can clear off leaving you with a half done job and not enough money to complete.
I would advise further payments are based on the work completed and at worst, holding at least a 10% final payment until its completed to satisfaction.

I just hope the OP has some sort of written contract and receipt for the deposit in case things go pear shaped.

Hi he wrote down what he was doing on a a4 paper and signed his name on it that he took 5k deposit.

To be honest if its just a room to use as a place to sleep for short term i am happy to not have it classed as a bed room.

What I do want is the work to not affect my home insurance or affect me selling the house in the future. Of course with the work also not going pear shaped.

I have lost a lot of sleep, me and my partner are blaming each other and its a bad situation. If I could turn back the clock I would since reading the stuff on here.

I really want to turn this into a happy outcome. P.s I also recorded a video of him counting the cash but only a few seconds with him with money in hand.

johnny_adidas

Subzero3 wrote: »

Hi he wrote down what he was doing on a a4 paper and signed his name on it that he took 5k deposit.

To be honest if its just a room to use as a place to sleep for short term i am happy to not have it classed as a bed room.

What I do want is the work to not affect my home insurance or affect me selling the house in the future. Of course with the work also not going pear shaped.

I have lost a lot of sleep, me and my partner are blaming each other and its a bad situation. If I could turn back the clock I would since reading the stuff on here.

I really want to turn this into a happy outcome. P.s I also recorded a video of him counting the cash but only a few seconds with him with money in hand.

I just found this site [snip] with a quick search, it contains some responses from insurance companies which may be of benefit to you & spouse. I haven't read it all and probably best to look with a grain of salt as they are flogging conversions themselves.

Just remember, someone sleeping up there, even just irregularly makes it a habitable room.
I have seen several conversions myself over the years that are used daily but not compliant and always wonder if people consider either there's a fire and ignoring the fire regs leads to a death or everyone gets out but insurance refuses to pay out.

DOCARCH

Mod Note: @ johnny_adidas. I have removed that link, not necessarily for advertising reasons, but for the reason that I consider the 'advice' provided (by the attic conversion company) is not all good, factual or accurate!

Copy and paste below of the insurance bit you mention:

We sent the following email to five insurance companies.

“I am considering converting my attic and wondered how that will affect my house insurance policy”?.

Here are the responses:-

Allianzdirect.ie
Thank you for your email. In relation to your query, there are no specific terms and conditions for attic conversion. However if it is been converted to a bedroom and you classify it as an extra bedroom you will have to notify the insurance company. You would also need to increase your contents sums insured if the attic is going to be fully furnished. This will add an additional premium to your policy.

Aviva Direct Ireland
Thank you for your email.
We request you to provide us with your policy number, In order for us to further assist you.
We request you to provide us with your contact number and convenient time, In order for an advisor from our Customer Service Department to contact you.

Zurich
Thank you for your email.
There would be no change in cover if the attic is converted. However you would need to revalue your house after same to ensure that the insured sum is adequate and you are not underinsured.

AXA Insurance
Converting the attic will not affect your insurance in any way. Once completed, however, you may wish to re-assess the buildings sum insured to reflect any change in the property's rebuilding cost.
Please contact us on 1890 247 365 if you have any queries.

FBD Insurance
Good Morning,
Many thanks for you email. Please be advised for us to discuss your query further we will need to speak to you. If you could please forward your home insurance policy number along with a contact number for yourself.

DOCARCH

johnny_adidas wrote: »

Just remember, someone sleeping up there, even just irregularly makes it a habitable room.

+1

A fire officer in Dublin City Council once told me that the criteria is that if your mother can get up there....it's habitable.

Dardania

Calahonda52 wrote: »

http://www.environ.ie/sites/default/files/migrated-files/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad%2C1657%2Cen.pdf

Came here to suggest this - helpful guide

Subzero3

From info i gathered so far not many conversions could be classed as habitable. I seen one recently with no door just stairs from room.

Gumbo

Subzero3 wrote: »

From info i gathered so far not many conversions could be classed as habitable. I seen one recently with no door just stairs from room.

Habitable is irrelevant. Think accessible.
That house is in breech of the building regulations and in particular, Part B, Fire Safety.

Sounds like you are just waiting for one person to say it will be alright to cure your consciousness, but that won't happen unfortunately.

The truth of the matter is, you are adding an additional storey to ththe dwelling, once it's accessible by a perm at staircase, it becomes a 3 storey dwelling.

seamus

kceire wrote: »

Habitable is irrelevant. Think accessible.
That house is in breech of the building regulations and in particular, Part B, Fire Safety.

The Fire regs say nothing about applying to "accessible" rooms, but habitable rooms. And only certain habitable rooms.

What's the difference, from a regulation point of view, between a Stira and a permanent narrow staircase into an attic space?

Gumbo

seamus wrote: »

The Fire regs say nothing about applying to "accessible" rooms, but habitable rooms. And only certain habitable rooms.

What's the difference, from a regulation point of view, between a Stira and a permanent narrow staircase into an attic space?

The fire regs clearly state additional storey and that's what I base my professional judgement on. Others may disagree but that's my interpretation of the regulations.

db

OP, it sounds like there have been no materials ordered yet so your builder has not incurred any costs other than his own time. I think you should seriously consider telling him that you need to pull back and think about it a bit more before you proceed and get your deposit back. Leaving him €500 out of the deposit should cover for the time he has spent.

I would be very wary of having someone do this kind of work on my house having never done it before and also having people that you don't know working in your house while you are away is a bad idea. I see all sorts of alarm bells here and you should try and get out of it with as little loss as possible. It will cost you a lot more than €5K if it all goes wrong.

Penn

seamus wrote: »

The Fire regs say nothing about applying to "accessible" rooms, but habitable rooms. And only certain habitable rooms.

What's the difference, from a regulation point of view, between a Stira and a permanent narrow staircase into an attic space?

Permanent accessibility. Habitable room is defined as

Habitable room - A room used for living or
sleeping purposes but does not include a
kitchen having a floor area less than 6.5 m2
, a
bathroom, toilet or shower room.

Access to a room via a Stira doesn't constitute a room for living purposes because the available access to it is designed to be used infrequently and not able to be used by all occupants of the house (eg. children or elderly persons or the ambulant disabled). A permanent staircase means that access to the room (and therefore the room itself) is designed to be used regularly by any occupants of the house (providing the stairs meet the requirements of Part B, Part K and Part M.

If an attic room is permanently accessible by all occupants of the house and used either for a bedroom or for general living purposes, it's a habitable room and falls under Fire Reg requirements as an additional storey to the house.

seamus

Penn wrote: »

If an attic room is permanently accessible by all occupants of the house and used either for a bedroom or for general living purposes, it's a habitable room and falls under Fire Reg requirements as an additional storey to the house.

Right.

You know what I'm getting at here.

Having a permanent stairs up to the attic, in and of itself, doesn't make it fall under the fire regs.

I'm aware a lot of people here feel the need to dot the i's and the cross the t's, but having a permanent staircase, a door and a nicely decorated attic space, does not make it an habitable room and does not automatically require all of the other fun that comes with that. It's only an habitable room if the plan is to use it for general living purposes.

The fire regs are there for a reason, and anyone contemplating a "conversion" of this nature should give due regard to the safety of their family above the false economy you get from a cheaper conversion.

But the proposed work in the OP is not automatically outside of the regs just because it includes a staircase.

My main concern with these kinds of works is what they're going to do with rafters in the attic space. It's insane the amount of conversions that just chop or remove the rafters and slot in a piece of support elsewhere without properly looking at the underlying engineering. This is the issue that will affect insurance or resale the most.

Penn

No I agree. If it's not used as a bedroom or general living space it doesn't count as a habitable room and as per Appendix D of the new Part B Volume 2 for dwelling houses, "In the case of an existing two storey dwelling house to which a storey is to be added by converting the existing roof space into habitable accommodation, the converted dwelling house should comply with the provisions of 1.3.3." - this does not apply.

However, to me (and likely others reading this), OP has quite clearly indicated it's going to be used as a bedroom

Subzero3 wrote: »

Thanks seamus. Ya I'm happy for it to be called fancy storage room if the roof don't blow off down the line. If it was not to be called bed room but they will abviously cut through walls ceiling etc what concerns should I have. If I need sell down the line.

Subzero3 wrote: »

To be honest if its just a room to use as a place to sleep for short term i am happy to not have it classed as a bed room.

It may not legally be classed as a bedroom, but if the OP is using it as a bedroom, then the main point he needs to take away is, in your own words:

"The fire regs are there for a reason, and anyone contemplating a "conversion" of this nature should give due regard to the safety of their family above the false economy you get from a cheaper conversion."

OP, it's a member of your family that's going to be sleeping up there. You need to consider fire safety, not what the room might be classed as if you go sell the house in a few years. Priorities, man. Priorities.

john9876

db wrote: »

OP, it sounds like there have been no materials ordered yet so your builder has not incurred any costs other than his own time.  I think you should seriously consider telling him that you need to pull back and think about it a bit more before you proceed and get your deposit back.  Leaving him €500 out of the deposit should cover for the time he has spent.

I would be very wary of having someone do this kind of work on my house having never done it before and also having people that you don't know working in your house while you are away is a bad idea.  I see all sorts of alarm bells here and you should try and get out of it with as little loss as possible.  It will cost you a lot more than €5K if it all goes wrong.

Totally agree, lose a grand if neccessary .... a small price to pay for peace of mind.

DOCARCH

My tuppence worth and simple criteria (I use with clients)....

Fixed staircase = habitable.

Ladder/drop down stairs = storage.

sydthebeat

If it walks like a duck....

Staplor

I had looked into it before and was told that to get it recognised as a bedroom that the entire house would need to meet modern regulations, lowered light switches etc. Is that all wring, or would it just be the be addition that would need to be to modern standards?

Gumbo

Staplor wrote: »

I had looked into it before and was told that to get it recognised as a bedroom that the entire house would need to meet modern regulations, lowered light switches etc. Is that all wring, or would it just be the be addition that would need to be to modern standards?

You were advised incorrectly.
The light switches are a Part M issue, not a Part A or Part B issue.

The new works must comply, the biggest effect on the existing house is the addition of self closers to the existing doorways into bedrooms and sitting rooms etc

*purposely ignoring the structural and fire safety works that. We'd to take place Ina be around the attic.

Sausage dog

You may not need to alter your plans much but it is worth checking the relevant documents. eg. If putting in velux windows, the height of the velux windows above the ground is important. If putting in windows, the size of window opening & type of opening is also important. If going to the expense of putting in new windows make sure they comply as the difference in cost may be minimal but may affect future sale of house. This is aside from the more important issue of the safety of whoever uses this space

Subzero3

I going to take your advice and not proceed.

I though I'd get a certified Attic room. I would of then settled for a certified compliant with building regulation storage space in Attic. I probably would of got neither.

Now about getting money back. We will ring him later. Hope he understands or does not day he ordered all materials. He had not measured anything yet just took a few pics.

Any tips on where I stand. He clearly wasn't going to build a compliant Attic room.

db

Subzero3 wrote: »

I going to take your advice and not proceed.

I though I'd get a certified Attic room. I would of then settled for a certified compliant with building regulation storage space in Attic. I probably would of got neither.

Now about getting money back. We will ring him later. Hope he understands or does not day he ordered all materials. He had not measured anything yet just took a few pics.

Any tips on where I stand. He clearly wasn't going to build a compliant Attic room.

Good luck

Gumbo

Subzero3 wrote: »

I going to take your advice and not proceed.

I though I'd get a certified Attic room. I would of then settled for a certified compliant with building regulation storage space in Attic. I probably would of got neither.

Now about getting money back. We will ring him later. Hope he understands or does not day he ordered all materials. He had not measured anything yet just took a few pics.

Any tips on where I stand. He clearly wasn't going to build a compliant Attic room.

No need to cancel him, just insist on it being done properly, engage an Engineer and get the builder to follow his design.