Ideal Sheep

123shooter

80% of sheep keeping is wool production.

You have to remember that sheep were not originally kept for wool, they were kept for meat and when wool spinning was industrialised then the breeds changed. It's probably full circle now as wool has little value. So............

stantheman1979

123shooter wrote: »

80% of sheep keeping is wool production.

Given the price of wool we're in trouble so!!!! What a ridiculous statement. Why do we breed sheep for? I know I don't for a fleece

123shooter

stantheman1979 wrote: »

Given the price of wool we're in trouble so!!!! What a ridiculous statement. Why do we breed sheep for? I know I don't for a fleece

Well if you think that, please dont argue with me. Tell the man in the video who says such.

charolais0153

we scanned roughly 1.93[220] but with a bit of abortion[~20 ] we will only wean 1.63. [186]. 99 have been killed with 7 more for slaughter on monday. 50 ewe lambs for selling ranging from 40-55 kgs ,30 other lambs for slaughter yet. 4.4 tonnes of meal have been fed at 300/t. we've averaged 116.75 for lambs so far. am expecting an average of around 120 for ewe lambs. suffolk and texel ewes arent that bad :P
why would i buy an easycare ram:rolleyes:

123shooter

charolais0153 wrote: »

we scanned roughly 1.93[220] but with a bit of abortion[~20 ] we will only wean 1.63. [186]. 99 have been killed with 7 more for slaughter on monday. 50 ewe lambs for selling ranging from 40-55 kgs ,30 other lambs for slaughter yet. 4.4 tonnes of meal have been fed at 300/t. we've averaged 116.75 for lambs so far. am expecting an average of around 120 for ewe lambs. suffolk and texel ewes arent that bad :P
why would i buy an easycare ram:rolleyes:

Understand but from the details you supply you are saying 186 x 120 = 22320 with overheads of just 300 x 4.4 = 1320.

So a profit of 21000...........jeez they are some sheep.:rolleyes:

charolais0153

123shooter wrote: »

Understand but from the details you supply you are saying 186 x 120 = 22320 with overheads of just 300 x 4.4 = 1320.

So a profit of 21000...........jeez they are some sheep.:rolleyes:

The easycares don't get meal to my knowledge, the rest of the costs between them should be equal enough, it would be the biggest difference would it not?

123shooter

charolais0153 wrote: »

The easycares don't get meal to my knowledge, the rest of the costs between them should be equal enough, it would be the biggest difference would it not?

I have no idea but I should imagine that if you pumped meal in to any lambs you would get the same results but obviously you have picked the one breed which puts weight on where you want for the market you are aiming for.

But the parents of these lambs require additional services as already described and all of those costs in materials and labour have to come out of your 21000 profit.

These are capital costs = sheds.

Material costs = feeders, equipment, foot baths and chemicals + labour, sheep dipping facilities and chemicals + labour, shearing equipment and labour.

Obviously your sheep cannot live on poor ground so = ground labour and machinery and bag manure etc.

Have you never taken these costs in to account to see what your actual profit margins are? Your profit margins certainly aren't 94% as you have given the impression as that would be the most profitable farm in the world I think.

charolais0153

123shooter wrote: »

I have no idea but I should imagine that if you pumped meal in to any lambs you would get the same results but obviously you have picked the one breed which puts weight on where you want for the market you are aiming for.

But the parents of these lambs require additional services as already described and all of those costs in materials and labour have to come out of your 21000 profit.

These are capital costs = sheds.

Material costs = feeders, equipment, foot baths and chemicals + labour, sheep dipping facilities and chemicals + labour, shearing equipment and labour.

Obviously your sheep cannot live on poor ground so = ground labour and machinery and bag manure etc.

Have you never taken these costs in to account to see what your actual profit margins are? Your profit margins certainly aren't 94% as you have given the impression as that would be the most profitable farm in the world I think.

Our sheep live on the limited ground we have. If we had 5000 acres of land we certainly wouldn't have Suffolk's!!!!
Mixed farm with sucklers and sheep, how do u propose I separate the machinery costs,silage,capital,electricity,insurance,fertiliser,fencing, water supplies
Lambs got roughly 25kgs each hardly pumped if u ask me spread over a few months.

123shooter

charolais0153 wrote: »

Our sheep live on the limited ground we have. If we had 5000 acres of land we certainly wouldn't have Suffolk's!!!!
Mixed farm with sucklers and sheep, how do u propose I separate the machinery costs,silage,capital,electricity,insurance,fertiliser,fencing, water supplies
Lambs got roughly 25kgs each hardly pumped if u ask me spread over a few months.

I understand exactly what you are saying and in part agree with you.......BUT.... a farm is a business just like anything else such as a factory.
For instance bedding for the sheep in sheds. A bale of straw has a value etc.

A shed cost 50 grand and last 50 years with an annual maintenance of 100 per year so that = costs of 1100 per year whatever you have in there. The shed costs you 21.00 per week ......every week for 50 years.

You mention fertilizer. Well if it costs 2 bags per acre per year then there is that cost and if you didnt need to put it down etc etc.

Everything costs something.

All I am asking is with the Easycare is it an advantage with the lesser costs associated with them and your market for them over whatever you are keeping? You say a straight forward no because of what you do (thats perfectly ok ) but you appear not to know how much your sheep set up is costing.

Username John

123shooter wrote: »

I understand exactly what you are saying and in part agree with you.......BUT.... a farm is a business just like anything else such as a factory.
For instance bedding for the sheep in sheds. A bale of straw has a value etc.

A shed cost 50 grand and last 50 years with an annual maintenance of 100 per year so that = costs of 1100 per year whatever you have in there. The shed costs you 21.00 per week ......every week for 50 years.

You mention fertilizer. Well if it costs 2 bags per acre per year then there is that cost and if you didnt need to put it down etc etc.

Everything costs something.

All I am asking is with the Easycare is it an advantage with the lesser costs associated with them and your market for them over whatever you are keeping? You say a straight forward no because of what you do (thats perfectly ok ) but you appear not to know how much your sheep set up is costing.

Can I ask what your own costs and profit are 123shooter?

Also, items like fertiliser, straw for a shed - these aren't necessarily breed specific, they are system specific.
You are saying go easycare, lamb them outside, don't put out fertiliser - what will they live, you won't have any grass for em, unless you drastically reduce stocking rate. Then your profit has again taken a hit...

Again, easycare prob have a part a play, but why are you so intent on trying to convince people that easycare will fit into, and it would seem improve any system? When I don't think this is true at all?

It sounds to me that you shouldn't have easycare, you should just go all out and get dexter cattle... think of it - no shearing, good feet, live outside all the time... why waste your time with sheep at all?

123shooter

Username John wrote: »

Can I ask what your own costs and profit are 123shooter?

Also, items like fertiliser, straw for a shed - these aren't necessarily breed specific, they are system specific.
You are saying go easycare, lamb them outside, don't put out fertiliser - what will they live, you won't have any grass for em, unless you drastically reduce stocking rate. Then your profit has again taken a hit...

Again, easycare prob have a part a play, but why are you so intent on trying to convince people that easycare will fit into, and it would seem improve any system? When I don't think this is true at all?

It sounds to me that you shouldn't have easycare, you should just go all out and get dexter cattle... think of it - no shearing, good feet, live outside all the time... why waste your time with sheep at all?

Well firstly I am not saying that these sheep are answer or alternative to all sheep keeping and mostly just putting forward what the man who started the breed says which seems to have some truth otherwise they wouldn't have caught on in the UK but then again have in no way replaced all sheep keeping there.

Farming from a money making view is an utter and complete waste of time.

There can't be any business on the planet which lets so many middle men dictate what the producer who suffers all the costs involved, gets for his produce.

Just added up and divided what costs on sheep to survived lambs for sale and it equals just under 26.00 per lamb for sale. This consists of feed, drugs, tools, spray etc. This would be possibly 33% of sale price????? or less if good prices.

Does not include long term stuff like fencing etc. So adding to this shearing, dipping, foot baths is just even more extra costs which I do not incur.

Dexter Cattle John ???. I think the answer to the west of Ireland is cover it with trees of all kinds. At least you could burn every bit of them.

Ard_MC

123shooter wrote: »

On hill land and bog in summer.

Its horses for courses, when you see a man with 1300 ewes converting to them they must be producing the goods!

Sayin that ill be stickin with my hornys. Not much more cost to be honest, they are run hard enough here and all goes as stores here at the minute. So cant see me makin any extra. Apart from not losing with wool but if they shed on the commonage they would go missin for sure where i come from! 1s with marks and brands are hard enough kept about it!

123shooter

Ard_MC wrote: »

Its horses for courses, when you see a man with 1300 ewes converting to them they must be producing the goods!

Sayin that ill be stickin with my hornys. Not much more cost to be honest, they are run hard enough here and all goes as stores here at the minute. So cant see me makin any extra. Apart from not losing with wool but if they shed on the commonage they would go missin for sure where i come from! 1s with marks and brands are hard enough kept about it!

I admit that is one of those unforeseen problems that nobody would think about until it happened. I have marked sheep and then couldnt find them among the flock a few weeks later as none had any marker left on them.

sheepfarmer92

I dont think you could beat horned ewes for hill ground, id imagine easycares lleyns or romneys wouldnt last as long in that environment.

123shooter

sheepfarmer92 wrote: »

I dont think you could beat horned ewes for hill ground, id imagine easycares lleyns or romneys wouldnt last as long in that environment.

Mine is hill and bog. Might not be top of Croagh Patrick but if you want to buy moss, heather and rushes, how many tons do you want?

If you was in Connemara or Achill and the like you couldn't have anything but hornys.

razor8

123shooter wrote: »

80% of sheep keeping is wool production.

You have to remember that sheep were not originally kept for wool, they were kept for meat and when wool spinning was industrialised then the breeds changed. It's probably full circle now as wool has little value. So............

alot of cities in England were built on the back of wool production

have you followed Tim W on the forum across the water?

no matter what breed you keep if you dont keep good records and measure performance you will never have a consistant flock IMO

123shooter

razor8 wrote: »

alot of cities in England were built on the back of wool production

have you followed Tim W on the forum across the water?

no matter what breed you keep if you dont keep good records and measure performance you will never have a consistant flock IMO

As a tan I know all about wool production. Old hargreaves invented a machine and feared for his life because of his invention (wool spinning jenny) with gangs after his blood and also his invention changed Ireland and most of Europe........I remember my history lessons.

But until his invention sheep were largely kept for meat and not wool.

razor8

123shooter wrote: »

Well firstly I am not saying that these sheep are answer or alternative to all sheep keeping and mostly just putting forward what the man who started the breed says which seems to have some truth otherwise they wouldn't have caught on in the UK but then again have in no way replaced all sheep keeping there.

Farming from a money making view is an utter and complete waste of time.

There can't be any business on the planet which lets so many middle men dictate what the producer who suffers all the costs involved, gets for his produce.

Just added up and divided what costs on sheep to survived lambs for sale and it equals just under 26.00 per lamb for sale. This consists of feed, drugs, tools, spray etc. This would be possibly 33% of sale price????? or less if good prices.

Does not include long term stuff like fencing etc. So adding to this shearing, dipping, foot baths is just even more extra costs which I do not incur.

Dexter Cattle John ???. I think the answer to the west of Ireland is cover it with trees of all kinds. At least you could burn every bit of them.

What is your profit per ewe rather than lamb? I’m making anything from 60 to 75 profit per ewe at the moment. As a guide it usually takes a ewe’s first lamb to cover costs for the year and the second lamb is profit, unfortunately they don’t all end up with two

123shooter

razor8 wrote: »

What is your profit per ewe rather than lamb? I’m making anything from 60 to 75 profit per ewe at the moment. As a guide it usually takes a ewe’s first lamb to cover costs for the year and the second lamb is profit, unfortunately they don’t all end up with two

I don't know how to work that out.

I can work out profit per salable product (lamb) and profit of farm (if any) at end of year but per ewe I don't know.

razor8

123shooter wrote: »

I don't know how to work that out.

I can work out profit per salable product (lamb) and profit of farm (if any) at end of year but per ewe I don't know.

based on wean rate of 1.4 i assume its €36. not a bad return from hill sheep but do you carry barren ewes and dry hoggets each year?

123shooter

razor8 wrote: »

based on wean rate of 1.4 i assume its €36. not a bad return from hill sheep but do you carry barren ewes and dry hoggets each year?

The 1.4 was something I read somewhere. I actually got 1.7 this year and have no idea earlier years. No dry ewe's they all lambed.

But this year I am losing 2 ewes so have no idea how to work your ewe profit ratio out because I have no idea what happens to the profit and costs from lost ewes in your system. I think its easier for me to work out running costs and sales.

Dunno who is right or wrong???

razor8

123shooter wrote: »

The 1.4 was something I read somewhere. I actually got 1.7 this year and have no idea earlier years. No dry ewe's they all lambed.

But this year I am losing 2 ewes so have no idea how to work your ewe profit ratio out because I have no idea what happens to the profit and costs from lost ewes in your system. I think its easier for me to work out running costs and sales.

Dunno who is right or wrong???

always work costs out from ewes that went to ram and measure everything against that each year

123shooter

razor8 wrote: »

also work costs out from ewes that went to ram and measure everything against that each year

Well all the costs I put down earlier went into my ewes and ram because all the lambs have had is 2 worm doses. No feed and any other drugs/chemicals has gone into the lambs. The feed went into the ewes and rams, the lambs were too young for bag meal and when old enough I had grass.

Floody Boreland

Username John wrote: »

Speaking of crossing, tell me - how hereditary is the wool shedding? If a lad got an easycare ram, and put with a Suffolk cross ewe (I say Suffolk, as a lot of the national flock have Suffolk in them)
Would the resulting lambs shed their wool? Or would you need breed again off an easycare ram, for it to come through?

Third cross I believe.

I like them but they aren't docile and possibly the rubbing off the hair on wire could weaken fences. Scratching posts seem to help.
Another plus for me is they don't get entangled in briars also
I believe I get more sleep at lambing time with easycare( youtube video 2m30s).

Green farmer

Floody Boreland wrote: »

Third cross I believe.

I like them but they aren't docile and possibly the rubbing off the hair on wire could weaken fences. Scratching posts seem to help.
Another plus for me is they don't get entangled in briars also
I believe I get more sleep at lambing time with easycare( youtube video 2m30s).

When you say aren't docile, what breed would you liken them to ? Llyen, cheviot , Horney ? Are they flighty ? Are they quieter of breed out of lowland sheep ?

Also what size sheep are they ? Are they small handy sheep like a llyen or bigger sheep like a cheviot ?

sheepfarmer92

Green farmer wrote: »

When you say aren't docile, what breed would you liken them to ? Llyen, cheviot , Horney ? Are they flighty ? Are they quieter of breed out of lowland sheep ?

Also what size sheep are they ? Are they small handy sheep like a llyen or bigger sheep like a cheviot ?

Same size as lleyn and hardy

Floody Boreland

Flighty, hard to handle(not really a problem because they don't need handling often), no respecter of electric fences either.

All sounds a little negative but if I remain in sheep this is the only breed I will keep apart from terminal rams.

123shooter

Floody Boreland wrote: »

Flighty, hard to handle(not really a problem because they don't need handling often), no respecter of electric fences either.

All sounds a little negative but if I remain in sheep this is the only breed I will keep apart from terminal rams.

My first lot which I still have are like pets. A few years back I purchased another ram lamb from a different flock and I never got within 30 yards of him except when rounding up.

As regards electric fences. It's what I use at lambing time with a powerful mains energiser and never had a problem.

DJ98

Is it not possible that any breed can be ideal if managed properly IE cull lameness footbath regularly and use a product to control flystrike, increase costs perhaps but you have the sheep you want and thus get the lambs you want, personally I don't like the easycare but have no experience with them, think they are a bit small and lack shape

123shooter

I look at it from a non farmer point of view. I could agree with the use of other large sheep if all the market required was leg of lamb, but it doesnt. You are mainly paid on the carcass weight and when checking last week what you are selling for 5.40kg the supermarkets are selling at up to 20.00 per kg.

So my way of looking at this is to produce a product to suit your aimed market with the least cost in time and materials to yourself (a bit like any other product) to maximize profits..........in whatever form that takes.

Why Lolo Owen the Easycare breeder chose the Wiltshire horn and Welsh mountain to produce Easycare I can only assume he must have tried other breeds in his mix over the 40 years he was doing it and settled on those breeds.......dunno.

I should imagine you could breed similar which would live on lowland farms and be larger or/and grow quicker but then your sales would be limited to lowland farms where sheep rearing isnt the best way of maximising your land.

In upland farms they really have no choice except sheep and forestry so your Easycare breed has to able to live there.