new etci rules re; T+E cable sep 2017

Sleeper12

Risteard81 wrote:

Although the Hager 50A pullcords are of good quality (as all Hager gear), unfortunately they do not offer dual screws for the terminations of the live conductors which makes me select products which do.

I use hager because its only slightly more expensive than the bog standard 45 amp ones yet if installed correctly should last decades. The cheap ones though rated 45amp aren't fit for purpose imo. Many burn out not because incorrectly installed but because they can't really handle the load they are designed for. I have never understood a tradesman buying a cheepy pull cord switch for 9 euros when a hager is selling for as little as 13 or 14 euro. I have this thing where I hate doing free call backs after 6 months. I'd rather spend a little extra & just have the one trip.

I think MK have dual screws but they don't officially sell pull cord switch in Ireland afaik. I think B&Q stock them but I assume they import them from the UK themselves.

Tuco88

+1 on the round Crabtree if you are going for the pull cord, I didn't have too much difficulty getting 10mm^2 into it. They look decent also, and are under the siemens umbrella now.

kevh1987

On all new installations now we run the 10sq for the shower straight to the consumer unit, then a 4c to a switch outside the bathroom which pulls in a contactor in the board. A bit more expensive to install but a better job.

Bruthal

kevh1987 wrote: »

On all new installations now we run the 10sq for the shower straight to the consumer unit, then a 4c to a switch outside the bathroom which pulls in a contactor in the board. A bit more expensive to install but a better job.

Its not proper isolation though. Not in my opinion anyway.

2011

Bruthal wrote: »

Its not proper isolation though. Not in my opinion anyway.

Agreed.
This is not complaint with the regulations.

kramer1

2011 wrote: »

Agreed.
This is not complaint with the regulations.

Yes it is, it's in there somewhere

kevh1987

Why would it not be properly isolated? Our reci inspector says he sees it quiet often, especially with the increased cable size.

Sleeper12

kevh1987 wrote:

Why would it not be properly isolated? Our reci inspector says he sees it quiet often, especially with the increased cable size.

I've seen 9kw showers passed with 6mm cable by RECI inspectors. They don't always get it 100 percent correct

Tuco88

Its not a reliable isolation point thats for sure.
I have never seen it done tbh.

Well if reci says its ok....

2011

kevh1987 wrote: »

Why would it not be properly isolated?

Contactors are not "isolating switches". An instantaneous shower must have an isolating switch installed local to the shower. According to the National Rules for Electrical Installations, ET101:2008

"555.1.2 Every appliance shall be provided with a separate isolating switch complying with 537.2 and capable of interrupting the load current."

Additionally contactors are not designed for this purpose.

desoc32

“As shower switches have been a common problem as regards to fires and contacts burning out, switching with a contactor is recommended”

Safe Electric newsletter December 2016
Focus on Bathrooms

2011

desoc32 wrote: »

“As shower switches have been a common problem as regards to fires and contacts burning out, switching with a contactor is recommended”

Safe Electric newsletter December 2016
Focus on Bathrooms

In this context this article recommends contactors for switching instantaneous showers particularly under load conditions. This is very different to safely isolating a permanently connected appliance for maintenance purposes (which is the purpose of the required isolating switch).

Bruthal

kevh1987 wrote: »

Why would it not be properly isolated? Our reci inspector says he sees it quiet often, especially with the increased cable size.

Its a remotely controlled contactor. Relying on intact wiring etc to work properly.

It would be possible for wiring alterations to be done to it, unknown to anyone. DIYers at the board etc. Or damage to the switch feed and wire/cable. So it is remotely possible for it to unexpectedly come on. While probably unlikely, its not as conclusive as a local mechanical switch to say it is properly isolated.

The contactor works perfectly well as functional switching. But how many get out of a shower and use the switch to disconnect it.

3 x 10 square is realistically impractical into pullchords though, and wall switches too. 63 amp type isolators seen in commercial or industrial intallations are needed really for that size of cable.

Its all debatable. Thats just my opinion. Some will say that once an inspector says its ok, then its proper isolation.

So my opinion would be that proper isolation is live conductors disconnection of an appliance which cant be reconnected while unknown to the person doing the isolating.

Mondo44

My friend said he sometimes cuts out 1 or to of the strands of the earth in the 10 square t&e to fit it into connections. Is this widespread practice?

Tuco88

Mondo44 wrote: »

My friend said he sometimes cuts out 1 or to of the strands of the earth in the 10 square t&e to fit it into connections. Is this widespread practice?

No, thats not a good idea.

Mondo44

Tuco88 wrote: »

No, thats not a good idea.

Well I have ran in the wires for a shower and I have no idea how I am going to get 2 10 square earth into a pull cord. The Crabtree pull cords only have 1 earth terminal

Tuco88

Mondo44 wrote: »

Well I have ran in the wires for a shower and I have no idea how I am going to get 2 10 square earth into a pull cord. The Crabtree pull cords only have 1 earth terminal

Its probably because of the new changes to t&e cable. Not the case when I last changed one.

Have you tried the hager brand?

2011

Mondo44 wrote: »

Well I have ran in the wires for a shower and I have no idea how I am going to get 2 10 square earth into a pull cord. The Crabtree pull cords only have 1 earth terminal

You could use something like this to reduce the CPC conductor size at the termination point in a way that is permitted:



Or you could go with a different brand as has already been suggested.

Mondo44

2011 wrote: »

You could use something like this to reduce the CPC conductor size at the termination point in a way that is permitted:



Or you could go with a different brand as has already been suggested.

I’ve never used one of them. What are they called?

Mondo44

Tuco88 wrote: »

Its probably because of the new changes to t&e cable. Not the case when I last changed one.

Have you tried the hager brand?

Never used the Hager ones. Do they come with two earth terminals

2011

Mondo44 wrote: »

Never used the Hager ones. Do they come with two earth terminals

Can’t help you there I’m afraid. It’s a long time since I wired an instantaneous shower and when I did I avoided pull cord switches.

Risteard81

Mondo44 wrote: »

2011 wrote: »

You could use something like this to reduce the CPC conductor size at the termination point in a way that is permitted:



Or you could go with a different brand as has already been suggested.

I’ve never used one of them. What are they called?

Can't see the image, but I presume that he's talking about a reducer.

Mondo44

Like I said earlier my friend said cut 1 or 2 of the earth stands out. I know it’s not could practice but would 1 or 2 have any major affect on a 10 square earth

2011

Mondo44 wrote: »

Like I said earlier my friend said cut 1 or 2 of the earth stands out. I know it’s not could practice but would 1 or 2 have any major affect on a 10 square earth

This would be considered very shoddy practice.