new etci rules re; T+E cable sep 2017

evosteo

The new rules are coming into effect soon. Has anybody used the new T&E cable yet? Would it be fair to say its adding approx 10% onto the price of a job due to the increased cost of materials?

Sleeper12

evosteo wrote:

The new rules are coming into effect soon. Has anybody used the new T&E cable yet? Would it be fair to say its adding approx 10% onto the price of a job due to the increased cost of materials?

Is the new cable 10% more expensive?

evosteo

I havent used it myself yet. Not sure on cost per cable size. 10% is just a guestimate

Tuco88

Are the talks of a new regs book true?

Is it an Irish company producing the cable, as far as I am aware it's not a standard in the UK but I know they have a new regs book coming.

Intresting to see the cost difference of new T+E vs NYM-J.

Steve

Interesting.

From a certain wholesaler's website:
Old spec:
2.5 Sq mm Blue/Brown 100M €49.49 ex VAT

New spec (insulated PE):
2.5 Sq mm Blue/Brown 100M €79.35 ex VAT

Edit - NYM-j is still dearer:
2.5 Sq mm 3 METRE €1.23 ex VAT (€123/100m)

JonnyM

Different sized wavin will have to be used aswell not much in price difference there.

Will save time I'm sure when terminating as you won't need earth sleeving.

evosteo

Steve wrote: »

Interesting.

From a certain wholesaler's website:
Old spec:
2.5 Sq mm Blue/Brown 100M €49.49 ex VAT

New spec (insulated PE):
2.5 Sq mm Blue/Brown 100M €79.35 ex VAT

Edit - NYM-j is still dearer:
2.5 Sq mm 3 METRE €1.23 ex VAT (€123/100m)

Jesus thats some mark up on price. 30% odd dearer. I never even considered the increased size will cause capacity issues in oval and round conduit especially if walls have to be chased etc. In a domestic setting

evosteo

Tuco88 wrote: »

Are the talks of a new regs book true?

Is it an Irish company producing the cable, as far as I am aware it's not a standard in the UK but I kno we they have a new regs book coming.

Intresting to see the cost difference of new T+E vs NYM-J.

1st iv heard of a new reg book. Havent the etci been disbanded and the upgraded PE in T+E been their parting gift?

Tuco88

Yes the ETCI have dissolved. Somebody mentioned it here once of a new book, I think it was an apprentice going fas.

Stoner

Tuco88 wrote:

Yes the ETCI have dissolved. Somebody mentioned it here once of a new book, I think it was an apprentice going fas.

From the NSAI

Robbie.G

I was in Cef yesterday and they were saying around 30% difference in both
And what were they going to do with old stock as in my branch they have around 40k in stock

sky6

What's the Difference between new and old ?.

Risteard81

sky6 wrote: »

What's the Difference between new and old ?.

The cpc will be of the same csa as the live conductors and will also be insulated.

evosteo

Here a link to somemore info on the kellihers wholesale site

http://kellihers.com/news/new-twin-earth-wiring-rules/

stiofan85

While renovating recently I ran a 6sqmm T&E from the fuse board (unconnected) to the back of the kitchen in anticipation of running power to a shed next year. This is the old type of T&E mentioned here.

Would it now be against the regs to use it to run power to a shed?

Steve

stiofan85 wrote: »

While renovating recently I ran a 6sqmm T&E from the fuse board (unconnected) to the back of the kitchen in anticipation of running power to a shed next year. This is the old type of T&E mentioned here.

Would it now be against the regs to use it to run power to a shed?

New regs kick in in September, you're fine.

Dardania

What's the driver for this change. My memory is rusty (last looked at this about 8 years ago when dealing with a Swedish SWA CPC setup), but from what I recall, the earth CSA is sized based on the fault current from the phase. Are fault currents increasing or something?

Risteard81

Dardania wrote: »

What's the driver for this change. My memory is rusty (last looked at this about 8 years ago when dealing with a Swedish SWA CPC setup), but from what I recall, the earth CSA is sized based on the fault current from the phase. Are fault currents increasing or something?

Probably arising more out of harmonisation than anything else. The fault currents will vary by installation and therefore when using T&E with a reduced csa cpc the adequacy of the cpc should be verified via the adiabatic equation (S = sq rt((I^2)t)/k) - this is obviously generally met in domestic installations with low prospective fault currents.

Another advantage of the full sized cpc is that it will reduce touch voltage as well during a fault.

Any excess stock old-style T&E cable could still be sold into the north.

exaisle

evosteo wrote: »

The new rules are coming into effect soon. Has anybody used the new T&E cable yet? Would it be fair to say its adding approx 10% onto the price of a job due to the increased cost of materials?

How much more expensive is the new type cable?

How much is T&E cable as a proportion of a total job?

exaisle

evosteo wrote: »

Jesus thats some mark up on price. 30% odd dearer. I never even considered the increased size will cause capacity issues in oval and round conduit especially if walls have to be chased etc. In a domestic setting

That's 60% dearer..or an increase of 60% on 49.49 per metre

Bruthal

Risteard81 wrote: »

Another advantage of the full sized cpc is that it will reduce touch voltage as well during a fault.

Any example of where that will become meaningful?

evosteo

i was speaking to a contractor friend of mine about the new regs coming into force soon. he mentioned to me about upgrading the standard 10mm2 earth cable to 16mm2 in a domestic set up (earth rod, hotpress, boiler, gas meter, water). i was thinking to myself that this was overkill or did i miss some new reg introduction?

he said it should be the same size csa as the new upgraded 16mm2 T+E cable????

Bruthal

evosteo wrote: »

i was speaking to a contractor friend of mine about the new regs coming into force soon. he mentioned to me about upgrading the standard 10mm2 earth cable to 16mm2 in a domestic set up (earth rod, hotpress, boiler, gas meter, water). i was thinking to myself that this was overkill or did i miss some new reg introduction?

he said it should be the same size csa as the new upgraded 16mm2 T+E cable????

16 square for bonding and earth rod would be way overkill in domestic installations.

evosteo

Bruthal wrote: »

16 square for bonding and earth rod would be way overkill in domestic installations.

Completly agree

Mondo44

How are 2 10mm earth wires from 10 squared t&e going to fit in a shower pull cord with one earth connector

Risteard81

Mondo44 wrote: »

How are 2 10mm earth wires from 10 squared t&e going to fit in a shower pull cord with one earth connector

Personally I favour the 50A Click and Crabtree round pullcords as they are, in my opinion, superior to the other offerings out there not least because they contain dual screws for all of the live conductors within. As for the protective conductor, realistically with two of the new-style 10mm^2 IS201 T&E cables then it's going to be a bit awkward no matter what you use - but good quality materials is still a major part of the answer.

Mondo44

Risteard81 wrote: »

Personally I favour the 50A Click and Crabtree round pullcords as they are, in my opinion, superior to the other offerings out there not least because they contain dual screws for all of the live conductors within. As for the protective conductor, realistically with two of the new-style 10mm^2 IS201 T&E cables then it's going to be a bit awkward no matter what you use - but good quality materials is still a major part of the answer.

Absolutely no way of getting 2 10mm earths in the same connector

Mondo44

Risteard81 wrote: »

Personally I favour the 50A Click and Crabtree round pullcords as they are, in my opinion, superior to the other offerings out there not least because they contain dual screws for all of the live conductors within. As for the protective conductor, realistically with two of the new-style 10mm^2 IS201 T&E cables then it's going to be a bit awkward no matter what you use - but good quality materials is still a major part of the answer.

Absolutely no way of getting 2 10mm earths in the same connector

2011

Mondo44 wrote: »

How are 2 10mm earth wires from 10 squared t&e going to fit in a shower pull cord with one earth connector

My preference would be to avoid pull cord switches altogether and use a wall switch instead.

Sleeper12

Mondo44 wrote:

How are 2 10mm earth wires from 10 squared t&e going to fit in a shower pull cord with one earth connector

We use hager 50amp pull cords. They have 2 earth connectors. As 2011 says though wall switch is the way to go. Only a little extra work & a better quality job

Risteard81

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Mondo44 wrote:

How are 2 10mm earth wires from 10 squared t&e going to fit in a shower pull cord with one earth connector

We use hager 50amp pull cords. They have 2 earth connectors. As 2011 says though wall switch is the way to go. Only a little extra work & a better quality job

Although the Hager 50A pullcords are of good quality (as all Hager gear), unfortunately they do not offer dual screws for the terminations of the live conductors which makes me select products which do.

Sleeper12

Risteard81 wrote:

Although the Hager 50A pullcords are of good quality (as all Hager gear), unfortunately they do not offer dual screws for the terminations of the live conductors which makes me select products which do.

I use hager because its only slightly more expensive than the bog standard 45 amp ones yet if installed correctly should last decades. The cheap ones though rated 45amp aren't fit for purpose imo. Many burn out not because incorrectly installed but because they can't really handle the load they are designed for. I have never understood a tradesman buying a cheepy pull cord switch for 9 euros when a hager is selling for as little as 13 or 14 euro. I have this thing where I hate doing free call backs after 6 months. I'd rather spend a little extra & just have the one trip.

I think MK have dual screws but they don't officially sell pull cord switch in Ireland afaik. I think B&Q stock them but I assume they import them from the UK themselves.

Tuco88

+1 on the round Crabtree if you are going for the pull cord, I didn't have too much difficulty getting 10mm^2 into it. They look decent also, and are under the siemens umbrella now.

kevh1987

On all new installations now we run the 10sq for the shower straight to the consumer unit, then a 4c to a switch outside the bathroom which pulls in a contactor in the board. A bit more expensive to install but a better job.

Bruthal

kevh1987 wrote: »

On all new installations now we run the 10sq for the shower straight to the consumer unit, then a 4c to a switch outside the bathroom which pulls in a contactor in the board. A bit more expensive to install but a better job.

Its not proper isolation though. Not in my opinion anyway.

2011

Bruthal wrote: »

Its not proper isolation though. Not in my opinion anyway.

Agreed.
This is not complaint with the regulations.

kramer1

2011 wrote: »

Agreed.
This is not complaint with the regulations.

Yes it is, it's in there somewhere

kevh1987

Why would it not be properly isolated? Our reci inspector says he sees it quiet often, especially with the increased cable size.

Sleeper12

kevh1987 wrote:

Why would it not be properly isolated? Our reci inspector says he sees it quiet often, especially with the increased cable size.

I've seen 9kw showers passed with 6mm cable by RECI inspectors. They don't always get it 100 percent correct

Tuco88

Its not a reliable isolation point thats for sure.
I have never seen it done tbh.

Well if reci says its ok....

2011

kevh1987 wrote: »

Why would it not be properly isolated?

Contactors are not "isolating switches". An instantaneous shower must have an isolating switch installed local to the shower. According to the National Rules for Electrical Installations, ET101:2008

"555.1.2 Every appliance shall be provided with a separate isolating switch complying with 537.2 and capable of interrupting the load current."

Additionally contactors are not designed for this purpose.

desoc32

“As shower switches have been a common problem as regards to fires and contacts burning out, switching with a contactor is recommended”

Safe Electric newsletter December 2016
Focus on Bathrooms

2011

desoc32 wrote: »

“As shower switches have been a common problem as regards to fires and contacts burning out, switching with a contactor is recommended”

Safe Electric newsletter December 2016
Focus on Bathrooms

In this context this article recommends contactors for switching instantaneous showers particularly under load conditions. This is very different to safely isolating a permanently connected appliance for maintenance purposes (which is the purpose of the required isolating switch).

Bruthal

kevh1987 wrote: »

Why would it not be properly isolated? Our reci inspector says he sees it quiet often, especially with the increased cable size.

Its a remotely controlled contactor. Relying on intact wiring etc to work properly.

It would be possible for wiring alterations to be done to it, unknown to anyone. DIYers at the board etc. Or damage to the switch feed and wire/cable. So it is remotely possible for it to unexpectedly come on. While probably unlikely, its not as conclusive as a local mechanical switch to say it is properly isolated.

The contactor works perfectly well as functional switching. But how many get out of a shower and use the switch to disconnect it.

3 x 10 square is realistically impractical into pullchords though, and wall switches too. 63 amp type isolators seen in commercial or industrial intallations are needed really for that size of cable.

Its all debatable. Thats just my opinion. Some will say that once an inspector says its ok, then its proper isolation.

So my opinion would be that proper isolation is live conductors disconnection of an appliance which cant be reconnected while unknown to the person doing the isolating.

Mondo44

My friend said he sometimes cuts out 1 or to of the strands of the earth in the 10 square t&e to fit it into connections. Is this widespread practice?

Tuco88

Mondo44 wrote: »

My friend said he sometimes cuts out 1 or to of the strands of the earth in the 10 square t&e to fit it into connections. Is this widespread practice?

No, thats not a good idea.

Mondo44

Tuco88 wrote: »

No, thats not a good idea.

Well I have ran in the wires for a shower and I have no idea how I am going to get 2 10 square earth into a pull cord. The Crabtree pull cords only have 1 earth terminal

Tuco88

Mondo44 wrote: »

Well I have ran in the wires for a shower and I have no idea how I am going to get 2 10 square earth into a pull cord. The Crabtree pull cords only have 1 earth terminal

Its probably because of the new changes to t&e cable. Not the case when I last changed one.

Have you tried the hager brand?

2011

Mondo44 wrote: »

Well I have ran in the wires for a shower and I have no idea how I am going to get 2 10 square earth into a pull cord. The Crabtree pull cords only have 1 earth terminal

You could use something like this to reduce the CPC conductor size at the termination point in a way that is permitted:



Or you could go with a different brand as has already been suggested.

Mondo44

2011 wrote: »

You could use something like this to reduce the CPC conductor size at the termination point in a way that is permitted:



Or you could go with a different brand as has already been suggested.

I’ve never used one of them. What are they called?

Mondo44

Tuco88 wrote: »

Its probably because of the new changes to t&e cable. Not the case when I last changed one.

Have you tried the hager brand?

Never used the Hager ones. Do they come with two earth terminals