LeinsterDub wrote: » Just as night follows day. You mention Wikipedia and someone dismisses it out of hand. The article is full of references too which I was at pains to point out.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliability_of_Wikipedia the irony of using Wikipedia to prove how creditable Wikipedia is is not lost on me but if you're unwilling to accept that just pretend I posted nearly 300 references instead.
Professor Moriarty wrote: » Like I said, you do not believe in state intervention regarding endangered languages. So from your perspective they may both be irrelevant and with a wave of your hand dismiss them both as being one and the same. That's fine, but for those who disagree with your perspective, including the Irish government and the EU, it is far from being academic.
Rick Shaw wrote: » Wikipeida. You realise it's open to anyone to read, create and edit pages as they see fit. I think we can dismiss wikipeida as a reliable source.
LeinsterDub wrote: » There is an entire wiki article with references that call it a language
steddyeddy wrote: » Apart from the fact it's not a language. Have you any papers detailing whether it's a language? I have a few.
blanch152 wrote: » Very good question. Most Spaniards can understand Catalan, does that make Catalan a dialect? It is very difficult to distinguish a dialect from a language. An interesting link I pointed out earlier in this thread was to the effect that Ulster Irish actually became extinct sometime in the 1970s.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Irish The Irish spoken today in Northern Ireland is a purely artificial importation of mostly Donegal Irish. In that way - being seen as an artificial resurrection of a dead language - it actually shares many characteristics of Ulster Scots.
LeinsterDub wrote: » Bergs, Alexander (2001). "Modern Scots". Languages of the World. Bow Historical Books. 242: 4. Scots developed out of a mixture of Scandinavianised Northern English during the early Middle English period Jump up ^ Bergs, Alexander (2001). "Modern Scots". Languages of the World. Bow Historical Books. 242: 50. Scots originated as one form of Northern Old English and quickly developed into a language in its own right up to the seventeenth century Jump up ^ Sandred, Karl Inge (1983). "Good or Bad Scots?: Attitudes to Optional Lexical and Grammatical Usages in Edinburgh". ACTA Universitatis Upsaliensis. Ubsaliensis S. Academiae. 48: 13. ISBN 9789155414429. Whereas Modern Standard English is traced back to an East Midland dialect of Middle English, Modern Scots developed from a northern variety which goes back to Old Northumbrian Anyway I'm not here to defend (Ulster) Scots was just pointing out that what is and isn't a Language isn't clear .
blanch152 wrote: » No, away........ the rest I don't understand.
Jep Gambardella wrote: » Oh I'm aware of the distinction alright. But given the tiny number of speakers of each, that distinction is academic in more ways than one
blanch152 wrote: » Except, as has been shown, no agreement was ever reached with the DUP. Understandably, having been left out of those negotiations, they are bringing their own take on it to the table which is fair enough.
Can you give me other examples of the cultural bigotry of the DUP? Are they selling terrorist badges on their website for example?http://www.sinnfeinbookshop.com/belfast-brigade-2nd-bn-d-company-badge/ Makes complaints about 12th of July bonfires look hypocritical to say the least.
Junkyard Tom wrote: » Nae, away up thon brae wi'ye ye thran skitter.
LeinsterDub wrote: » Considering this a language debate maybe you should form an opinion.
This video may help
FrancieBrady wrote: » Fulfilling the terms of an agreement that has already been reached (without anybody mentioning Ulster Scots btw) is the 'solution'.
FrancieBrady wrote: » As well as recognising all the other rights still blocked by the religious supremacy and cultural bigotry of the DUP. Ask any other party other than SF about that.
Professor Moriarty wrote: » However, in passing judgement, it is important that you understand the difference between a language and a dialect.
LeinsterDub wrote: » Is Portuguese just a dialect of Spanish?
blanch152 wrote: » Equal and mutual recognition is the key. A Languages Act that mutually recognises the importance to each community of their traditional artificially created/imported language is the solution.
FrancieBrady wrote: » Nobody objects to Ulster Scots being recognised though. Their heritage is therefore recognised. It can have it's own recognition if anyone wants to propose a Language act for it. And of course it is a 'political thing' as well as being a cultural thing to want a separate standalone Irish Language Act. One has to say to your objection on those grounds - so what? How much of what goes on in any normal society is 'political'? There is nothing abnormal about it, that is why it was agreed to at St. Andrews by the British. It is typical that somebody who is politically opposed to anything required by a section of society would raise that old chestnut...i.e. 'it's POLITICAL!! As to the money argument, you could have that objection to anything you are against or opposed to. It is of no significance really.
Junkyard Tom wrote: » As I said it's more like a thick country accent in the north. I'm not sure what you'd call it but it's not a langauge. I don't know, thought they were different languages. Haven't a clue.
blanch152 wrote: » Given the tiny numbers involved, any form of Language Act is a waste of money. It is 100% tied up in political symbolism with SF trying to get one-up on the Unionist community. It is quite frankly tiresome and tedious. If that part of the UK is ever to achieve normality it must be on the basis of mutual recognition of each others' heritage, however small or inconsequential the other side views the particular heritage. Ulster Scots has acquired cultural meaning for part of the Unionist community and therefore requires recognition on the same basis as Irish. Anything else is just a continuation of the endless getting one up on the other side nonsense.
LeinsterDub wrote: » Some have claimed Scots is language others a dialect .
Is Portuguese just a dialect of Spanish?
Scots Gaelic a dialect of Irish?
LeinsterDub wrote: » As I said it's understandable but there is are also a large amount of words not used in Standard English. Some have claimed Scots is language others a dialect . Is Portuguese just a dialect of Spanish? Scots Gaelic a dialect of Irish?
Jep Gambardella wrote: » According to the 2011 census, Irish was the main language of 0.238% of Northern Irish residents, while Ulster Scots was the main language of 0.004%. In other words, a grand total of 0.242% of the population of Northern Ireland speaks either as their primary language Both the DUP and Sinn Fein should get their Language Act (or Acts) provided their assembly members agree to finance all the additional costs, including translation, signage, etc. out of their own pockets.
Junkyard Tom wrote: » Bad link. Could you post it again please. Edit just watched this. Yes, easily understood it. I grew up in the north west. My Grandmother lived in the countryside where I spent a lot of time and the way they're speaking in that vid is not unlike a thick country accent there.
Professor Moriarty wrote: » Which linguists have said that Ulster Scots is a language?
LeinsterDub wrote: » Many linguist would disagree with you.
LeinsterDub wrote: » Did you understand the entire video I posted?
FrancieBrady wrote: » There are words in cockney I don't understand or Kerry or even the south of the county I live in. It doesn't make them an important and distinct language.
